Kreia's true identity

[Melly]

Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->

 

I hate the EU, can you tell?

[Achilles]

Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->

 

I hate the EU, can you tell?

QFT.

 

It's like when one studio releases a wildly successful film so other studios start releasing similar movies direct to DVD that have similar marketing (font, DVD covers, etc). The sad thing is that they only do this because there are enough people going ga-ga for the knock-off to make it profitable.

[JCarter426]

Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->

 

Oh, I agree. While I whole-heartedly support seeing the backgrounds of Kreia, Sion, Revan, Malak, etc in the comics, I'm sick of all these poorly designed attempts at plot twists (see: the Revanchist leader, Alek Squintsalot).

[TKA-001]

Personally, I'd like having Revan do something that is actually seen, rather than mentioned by Basil Exposition.

[Corinthian]

It's not like Revan doesn't already have segments of a personality anyway - given his memory wipe, they could literally do whatever the hell they wanted with the character and nobody would really have any cause to complain.

[Jolly Boots]

Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->

 

I hate the EU, can you tell?

Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

 

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.

 

Oh, I agree. While I whole-heartedly support seeing the backgrounds of Kreia, Sion, Revan, Malak, etc in the comics, I'm sick of all these poorly designed attempts at plot twists (see: the Revanchist leader, Alek Squintsalot).

I don't think it was intended for them to be a plot twist. It's kinda hard to reveal that Alek is going to be Malak in a number years without giving into the "dream sequence" in which, as the comic likes to press, aren't reliable. I think JJM just likes building up the characters so much that by the time it's revealed, it's not even a plot twist. Like if it was a plot twist, JVS:EGTF wouldn't have thrown that little tibit in about those two.

[Corinthian]

I've never seen anyone punch holes in the Kae theory, and the reason why Kaeists can't punch holes in Kryndists is because there is so little on Krynda.

[JCarter426]

Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

 

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.

 

Well, as a Kae theorist myself, I can say that 1)

I've never seen anyone punch holes in the Kae theory, and the reason why Kaeists can't punch holes in Kryndists is because there is so little on Krynda.

 

what Corinthian said, and 2) I do follow the comics. I've missed one volume, however, as I'm waiting for it to come out in trade paperback

 

I don't think it was intended for them to be a plot twist. It's kinda hard to reveal that Alek is going to be Malak in a number years without giving into the "dream sequence" in which, as the comic likes to press, aren't reliable. I think JJM just likes building up the characters so much that by the time it's revealed, it's not even a plot twist.

 

Might not have been intended as a plot twist, but that's what it looks like. That actually annoys me more, because it's not meant to be a plot twist, why did they wait so long to reveal it? There's absolutely no point to learn the backstory of Revan and Malak if we're not 100% sure that they're Revan and Malak (and even though it was so obvious, no one could be 100% sure).

[Jolly Boots]

Shem gave a pretty good post that punched some holes into it. Link. Solid. Though he doesn't mention the fact that Disciple can name Arren Kae. And if Kreia was Kae then why couldn't he recall Revan's first master? If they were the same then Kae wouldn't have even been mentioned in the first place unless there was another name Kreia was going under. By punching holes in the Krynda theory, I meant that some theorists seem totally closed off and stubborn like "No. No. No. Your wrong. I'm right. Case closed." Arms folded, blah, blah, blah. Or to the point where they believe that Chris Avellone is the best writer and his writing surpasses all and the original intent MUST take place...yeah. Not the best thing to think when the game he intended for was pretty much chopped up into little bits and he also screwed up continuity with the basilisk thing.

 

Might not have been intended as a plot twist, but that's what it looks like. That actually annoys me more, because it's not meant to be a plot twist, why did they wait so long to reveal it? There's absolutely no point to learn the backstory of Revan and Malak if we're not 100% sure that they're Revan and Malak (and even though it was so obvious, no one could be 100% sure).

Funny thing is that they have yet to even mention it in the series. I found that very odd then came to the conclusion that it wasn't a twist. I was actually expecting Alek being the one to kill off Raana and then Zayne getting a vision. It's like Darth Krayt being A'shard Hett. That fact wasn't the twist of the series, that was just a revelation that may or may not have been obvious. Like a "...oh.". Not a "Say WHA?! How did I miss that?!" like Revan in K1 and Nyna Calixte being Morrigan Corde.

[Achilles]

Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

There's EU and then there's EU.

 

I can't speak for others but I might be willing to assume that what we're talking about is the difference between good writing that adds to the universe and bad writing that tries to sell more units to fanboys.

 

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.

Gee, how many air-tight arguments are necessary? If the comic came out after the game, then clearly the game writer did not write the character with the comic in mind. Pretty obvious, no?

 

Now if there's a...I think you guys call them "retcons"...retcon, then there's a retcon, but I think the whole point of this thread is to point out that not everyone is going to gobble up that big ole' spoonful of "can't write my own stories" with a smile on their face. Do you advocate midochlorians, Greedo shooting first, and Jabba's song and dance band too?

[Jolly Boots]

I can't speak for others but I might be willing to assume that what we're talking about is the difference between good writing that adds to the universe and bad writing that tries to sell more units to fanboys.

Isn't that just a matter of opinion? Personally, I don't think Avellone is the best writer in the world. His screw up with the whole basilisk, Mandalore, etc is quite annoying. And I don't think JJM's writing is the best either - too inconsistent with characters behavior - though Vector I can't blame totally on him. Also, I think he's a little too simple with his dialog, not really realistic enough where someone would just say "Dammit!". And both of them have a tendency to drag out the dialog way too far.

Gee, how many air-tight arguments are necessary? If the comic came out after the game, then clearly the game writer did not write the character with the comic in mind. Pretty obvious, no?

Chris Avellone has the rights of Kreia. Lucas can do whatever the hell he feels like with her. One would like to think that Avellone still had control but he doesn't. It's in JJM hands. You can't make that arugement here. Original intent is all well and good but means jack.

Now if there's a...I think you guys call them "retcons"...retcon, then there's a retcon, but I think the whole point of this thread is to point out that not everyone is going to gobble up that big ole' spoonful of "can't write my own stories". Do you advocate midochlorians, Greedo shooting first, and Jabba's song and dance band too?

God no. But it's, unfortuantly, canon. I'm not even happy about the decisious made about Revan or the Exile. At all. But I don't have any control. I know people like that. I just don't happen to. Am I going to say "No. No. Han shot first. Case closed." No, that's me just being stubborn. It isn't real. No point in getting bent out of shape about it.

[Melly]

Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

Yes, it's been accepted into the EU and been expanded one. It was actually the latter that I was saying I hated along with about 99.9% of all the books, comics, etc. that also makes up the EU. To me KotOR is what's in the game, and that's it.

 

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.

 

I don't know if this was directed at me but... I'll answer it anyway. I said that I have no problem with Kreia being Kae because there is some (the operative word there some) evidence of it in TSL whether is was intentional is up for debate, but I don't recall ever saying it was a air tight theory. If Kreia's not Kae, I have no problem with that either. However, I do think the real reason why a lot of people (but no all) don't like the thought that Kreia is Kae is because they don't like the idea of having Kreia as a mother-in-law.

 

As for why I have a problem with this Kreia is Krynda theory is exactly what you said because there's no mention of her at all in TSL, because she was invented later. So it would be complete and utter retcon, and I loathe that.

[Tommycat]

To me it seemed that Kreia was protective of the handmaiden. More like a mother, so it made sense to me that Kreia was Kae. However since that dialogue is not part of the canon story(another bone of contention for me), it is possible that Krynda Draay is her "real" identity.

[JCarter426]

And if Kreia was Kae then why couldn't he recall Revan's first master? If they were the same then Kae wouldn't have even been mentioned in the first place unless there was another name Kreia was going under.

 

Mical does recall Revan's first master. He never tells the player that it was specifically Kae, however (most likely because the Exile doesn't really care ). However, Kreia wipes his memory when he tells the Exile too much about Revan. After that, he remembers Kae's name, but he doesn't remember who Revan's first master was. Now, I bet you're thinking "Well, that means that Kae isn't Kreia, because Kreia would have wiped that too". Well, no, for a number of reasons. The main reason is that she doesn't care if the Exile knows who Arren Kae was (in fact, she tells male Exile herself), because that wouldn't give away anything, because everyone thinks Kae is dead.

 

By punching holes in the Krynda theory, I meant that some theorists seem totally closed off and stubborn like "No. No. No. Your wrong. I'm right. Case closed." Arms folded, blah, blah, blah.

 

Can't speak for others, but my view is that Krynda could be Kreia, but if she were it would break continuity. Now, would that stop them? Of course not. They already broke continuity with the whole Alek/Revanchist thing (one instance: the Exile shouldn't have known the name Malak if he didn't go by that name until the Jedi Civil War).

 

Or to the point where they believe that Chris Avellone is the best writer and his writing surpasses all and the original intent MUST take place...yeah.

 

Mr Avellone is a fine writer. But I see your point.

 

Not the best thing to think when the game he intended for was pretty much chopped up into little bits and he also screwed up continuity with the basilisk thing.

 

He's a writer, not head of the arts department. And that wasn't a continuity error; they intentionally changed the look of the Basilisk droid because the old ones looked silly. Not the first time this has happened, and it could be easily explained as an improvement in technology (hell, BioWare made an even bigger "continuity error" with K1--but that can be explained away for the same reason).

 

Not to say that K2 doesn't have a few continuity errors, but I blame LA for that, because they didn't let the development team even play K1 until about halfway through development (and then pushed up the due date three months, making it so that the team couldn't fix all those errors).

[Achilles]

Isn't that just a matter of opinion?

If you'd like to present an argument for how it isn't a matter of fact, then I'll be happy to take a look at whatever you'd like to present.

 

Chris Avellone has the rights of Kreia. Lucas can do whatever the hell he feels like with her. One would like to think that Avellone still had control but he doesn't. It's in JJM hands. You can't make that arugement here. Original intent is all well and good but means jack.

I like how you just made my point without addressing it directly. Yes, if "JJM" wants to rip-off Chris Avellone's work so that he can feel clever, and GL wants to sign off on it so that he can sell more comic books, then that is GL's right to do so. But let's at least acknowledge it for what it is and not pretend that Chris Avellone's story isn't being hijacked, okay?

 

Yes, I get that canon is more important that artistic integrity for you, but not everyone feels the same way. And while this does ultimately boil down to "tastes great" vs "less filling" the aforementioned facts of the matter aren't going to change.

 

God no. But it's, unfortuantly, canon. I'm not even happy about the decisious made about Revan or the Exile. At all. But I don't have any control. I know people like that. I just don't happen to. Am I going to say "No. No. Han shot first. Case closed." No, that's me just being stubborn. It isn't real. No point in getting bent out of shape about it.

But you'll get bent out of shape about this? Something isn't consistent here.

 

PS: And by admitting that you accept it as canon, you are admitting that you do advocate it (canon > everything else).

[Melly]

Not to say that K2 doesn't have a few continuity errors, but I blame LA for that, because they didn't let the development team even play K1 until about halfway through development (and then pushed up the due date three months, making it so that the team couldn't fix all those errors).

 

Really? Where did you hear that? Seriously, I want to know. It'll give me more when defending K2.

[Jolly Boots]

However, I do think the real reason why a lot of people (but no all) don't like the thought that Kreia is Kae is because they don't like the idea of having Kreia as a mother-in-law.

Oh, Kreia would be such a fun mother-in-law.

 

As for why I have a problem with this Kreia is Krynda theory is exactly what you said because there's no mention of her at all in TSL, because she was invented later. So it would be complete and utter retcon, and I loathe that.

And I loathe a twist for the sake of a twist. "I am your mother" for the hell of it? No. Kreia doesn't have a deep enough connection to her for that.

 

Can't speak for others, but my view is that Krynda could be Kreia, but if she were it would break continuity. Now, would that stop them? Of course not. They already broke continuity with the whole Alek/Revanchist thing (one instance: the Exile shouldn't have known the name Malak if he didn't go by that name until the Jedi Civil War).

Point taken.

 

He's a writer, not head of the arts department. And that wasn't a continuity error; they intentionally changed the look of the Basilisk droid because the old ones looked silly. Not the first time this has happened, and it could be easily explained as an improvement in technology (hell, BioWare made an even bigger "continuity error" with K1--but that can be explained away for the same reason).

Ah...and now we have JJM doing to Avellone what he did to the writer of TOTJ. Consciously taking a factor and screwing around with it.

 

I like how you just made my point without addressing it directly. Yes, if "JJM" wants to rip-off Chris Avellone's work so that he can feel clever, and GL wants to sign off on it so that he can sell more comic books, then that is GL's right to do so. But let's at least acknowledge it for what it is and not pretend that Chris Avellone's story isn't being hijacked, okay?

Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR. While I, and certainly you, believe he did for the better, I can make an argument saying that he completley took K1s characters and screwed them up and screwed up the series. It isn't ripping off if the same guys are from the same company. The point of the games were to make money. The point of the second one was to make more money since the first did so well. It's all about the money.

 

But you'll get bent out of shape about this? Something isn't consistent here.

I'm not getting bent out of shape. If it turns out I'm wrong. A quiet "dammit" and laugh at myself will do and then move on to the next speculative business at hand.

 

PS: And by admitting that you accept it as canon, you are admitting that you do advocate it (canon > everything else).

You make it sound like I advocated the Holocaust. Which apparently I do since I accept that it happened and don't dwell on it.

[JCarter426]

Ah...and now we have JJM doing to Avellone what he did to the writer of TOTJ. Consciously taking a factor and screwing around with it.

 

I'd hardly compare changing the artistic style to completely rehashing one of the main characters. Now, what they did with Malak was all fine and dandy, but did they really need to make several major continuity errors and retcons along the way?

[Jolly Boots]

I'd hardly compare changing the artistic style to completely rehashing one of the main characters. Now, what they did with Malak was all fine and dandy, but did they really need to make several major continuity errors and retcons along the way?

I believe JJM's explanation for the name (before it was even finally said that they were the same) was that even though a guy like Josef Stalin had different name at first, everyone after the fact only knew him as Stalin and that's how history remembers him. It doesn't account for Exile's name but for all we know Alek changes his name before he even takes the Darth title.

[Achilles]

No argument coming then? Okay.

 

Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR.

He hijacked Kreia's character from KotOR? You'll have to help me out with that one.

 

While I, and certainly you, believe he did for the better, I can make an argument saying that he completley took K1s characters and screwed them up and screwed up the series.

The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47. I suppose you could argue T3-M4 as well, but since all of his dialog is inferred, I think that would be a difficult sell indeed.

 

Also, how does one "screw up the series" in the first sequel? It can't be a series until there's at least two correct?

 

It isn't ripping off if the same guys are from the same company. The point of the games were to make money. The point of the second one was to make more money since the first did so well. It's all about the money.

No doubt that Obsidian was very much interested in turning a profit, but Avellone's consistent lamenting of not getting to finish his vision of the game suggests to me that it was more than a paycheck.

 

I'm not getting bent out of shape. If it turns out I'm wrong. A quiet "dammit" and laugh at myself will do and then move on to the next speculative business at hand.

But how can you be wrong? If they retcon Kreia then it's canon and then you get to be right. Cheer up, GL will do all your thinking for you.

 

You make it sound like I advocated the Holocaust. Which apparently I do since I accept that it happened and don't dwell on it.

Excellent work with that strawman.

[JCarter426]

It doesn't account for Exile's name but for all we know Alek changes his name before he even takes the Darth title.

 

Not according to Jedi vs Sith, which claims that Revan and Malak changed their names upon finding Lehon and the Star Forge.

 

Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR.

 

Actually, the BioWare development team recommended Avellone and Obsidian. Oh, and K1's head writer was Drew Karpyshyn.

 

The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47.

 

Who was written wonderfully, by the way.

 

One could also argue Revan, but that's only if you take everything at face value--and with a game like K2, you really shouldn't.

[Jolly Boots]

He hijacked Kreia's character from KotOR? You'll have to help me out with that one.

 

The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47. I suppose you could argue T3-M4 as well, but since all of his dialog is inferred, I think that would be a difficult sell indeed.

Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that.

Also, how does one "screw up the series" in the first sequel? It can't be a series until there's at least two correct?

Potential of a series.

 

No doubt that Obsidian was very much interested in turning a profit, but Avellone's consistent lamenting of not getting to finish his vision of the game suggests to me that it was more than a paycheck.

Such a shame no one can prove that. But if he wasn't getting paid, he wouldn't have written the game.

 

But how can you be wrong? If they retcon Kreia then it's canon and then you get to be right. Cheer up, GL will do all your thinking for you.

Oh I can easily be wrong. Krynda can easily be someone else and Kae can end up being Kreia. And if I am right, then yay. Its always nice to be right. And I'm not sure what your assuming by letting GL do all of my thinking.

 

Excellent work with that strawman.

Advocating and accepting the fact are two totally different things. Yes, yes. It's all horrible and awful and should never have happened but really. One must get on with ones life (especially with things like the Holocaust that was never even in my life in the first place). Dwelling isn't healthy. What do you want? A protest in the street that "Lucas should have never have created midichlorians! He should have kept Han shooting first!" Yeah...smart.

[JCarter426]

Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side.

 

*points up*

 

Allow me to elaborate...

 

G0-T0 and Mical point out Revan's strategy, yes (HK too). But never do they say that Revan didn't fall. In fact, quite the opposite. They all just approve of his decision though (even Mical, to an extent). But that doesn't change the fact that Revan fell.

 

Oh, and speaking of which, that was one of the things I liked about K2. Everyone was wrong. That's right, everyone. Canderous had this delusion in that the Republic would be better off under Mandalorian rule. Mical lived in a fantasy world where the Jedi had a nice talk with Revan and worked things out. HK believed that he was more than the sum of his parts, that his assassination has more meaning than just mindless killing. G0-T0 believed that it didn't matter which side one picked, as long as they picked one. And of course Kreia wouldn't admit that Revan was a failure. They all had different views, making the player see things from all sides. And yet they were all wrong.

 

[...]

 

Everyone who made Revan out to be a living legend was wrong. Only the player (not the Exile, as the Exile was wrong too ) was right, as the player most likely had played K1 and knew what really happened (now that is a fatal flaw--assuming the player has played the original--but that's another matter).

 

Second time I've quoted that in as many days.

 

As I said above, you shouldn't take everything in K2 at face value. The writers of K2 don't give you the facts; they give you a whole lot of hearsay and biased opinions, and it's up to the player to piece everything together for themself.

[Jolly Boots]

Not according to Jedi vs Sith, which claims that Revan and Malak changed their names upon finding Lehon and the Star Forge.

Got me there.

 

Actually, the BioWare development team recommended Avellone and Obsidian. Oh, and K1's head writer was Drew Karpyshyn.

And how do we know Avellone didn't recommend JJM? Wait, don't answer that one. I already know the answer. We don't know. Perhaps someone should inquiry him if he had any involvement with the comics. Interesting to know what he thinks. Though I doubt we'd get any answers. Ah well. Would be nice to know though.

[Melly]

Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that.

I actually don't have a problem with it, if is indeed not just a fallacy of Kreia's. Mainly, because we're not really told anything about Revan in the first game (and I'm talking strictly game here). What do we know? That Revan split with the rest of the Jedi Order, joined the Mandalorian Wars, met something on the Outer Rim, fell to the DS, attacked the Republic, Bastila "captured" Revan, cue the opening theme. That's it pretty much. We're led to believe that it was the Star Forge that corrupted Revan and Malak, but we're never told that it was specifically so it's really not a retcon.

 

And with the information that Obsidian gives us in K2 certain conversations in K1 can be interpreted entirely different. Like one between Bastila and Carth when he asked her if she was tempted to join the Mandy Wars. Canderous says the Sith were the ones that convinced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, etc.

 

As for the "True Sith" that wasn't entirely Obsidian's creation *drags out .tlk file*

 

Canderous: "The Sith came to us with an offer: to fight a worthy enemy in a battle that would be remembered forever."

Canderous: "The Sith had gone - retreated into their empire. They sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy. We thought it would be centuries before they'd come back. It's amazing that they could rebuild their fleet so fast."

 

Both those lines are from K1, Canderous is of course, confusing the Sith they're fighting in K1 for the Sith that tricked the Mandalorians into fighting the Republic. They're not the same Sith, as we well know.

 

Of course, maybe I'm just bias because I love K2 so much... and a certain Zabrak.