Kreia's true identity

[Jolly Boots]

I'm not saying at all that it bothers me. I have no problems with either Sith or Revan "recons" or whatever. Just saying an argument can and has been made against it.

 

And with the information that Obsidian gives us in K2 certain conversations in K1 can be interpreted entirely different. Like one between Bastila and Carth when he asked her if she was tempted to join the Mandy Wars. Canderous says the Sith were the ones that convinced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, etc.

And can't JJM give information that makes info in K2 interpreted different too? Can't he write a comic without having some sinister motive to undercut, hijack, seem better then Avellone?

[Ravnas]

Well if he isn't then that's that, but in my opinion he's not doing a very good job of making it seem like he has another motive.

[JCarter426]

And can't JJM give information that makes info in K2 interpreted different too?

 

By all means. But there's a difference between interpretation and retcons.

 

Really? Where did you hear that? Seriously, I want to know. It'll give me more when defending K2.

 

Whoops...didn't see that earlier. My apologies.

 

For the first one...

 

[from http://www.starwarsknights.com/fullstory.php?id=386]

 

The first story draft was pretty terrible, mostly because we weren’t allowed to play K1 before drafting it, so we really knew nothing about the first game and were writing in the dark (Revan who?).

 

It was a frustrating situation that we wasted 2-3 months on that (there was nothing to be done about it), and then had to do another revision once we were able to play the first game. If you feel a disconnect in the storylines, that would be one of the reasons (again, my fault).

 

As for the second...can't find a link at the moment...might find one later. It's true, though.

[Jolly Boots]

Well if he isn't then that's that, but in my opinion he's not doing a very good job of making it seem like he has another motive.

Oh yes. John Jackson Miller has a saddistic motive to destroy Avellone's story just for the sake of it. Honestly. Are you living in another world or something? If this was some sort of quasy political game where there are actual stakes and gains to be made besides money, okay. But really. Grow up and look at the world for what it is. Both of these guys are just writers looking to pay for the bread.

 

I'm detecting a lot of, to be frank, spiteful bias.

By all means. But there's a difference between interpretation and retcons.

Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)

[Ravnas]

QUOTE]The first story draft was pretty terrible, mostly because we weren’t allowed to play K1 before drafting it, so we really knew nothing about the first game and were writing in the dark (Revan who?).

 

It's really a shame, because if they had at least 2 more months, this could've been one of the greatest games ever.

[Achilles]

Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that.

I believe this argument as already been addressed by others.

 

Potential of a series.

Oh, well, that's not what you said before. Regardless, this is only your opinion. Without seeing what else is coming, I think it's a little foolish to assume that whatever it is is no good, don't you (especially since you're trying so hard to make a show of not being emotionally invested).

 

Such a shame no one can prove that. But if he wasn't getting paid, he wouldn't have written the game.

I'm afraid I'm having difficulty following your train of thought: Are you arguing that people can't love their work?

 

Oh I can easily be wrong. Krynda can easily be someone else and Kae can end up being Kreia. And if I am right, then yay. Its always nice to be right. And I'm not sure what your assuming by letting GL do all of my thinking.

But if they retcon it, then it's canon and GL has told you what to think. Or do you wish to change your earlier position on the significance/value of canon?

 

Advocating and accepting the fact are two totally different things. Yes, yes. It's all horrible and awful and should never have happened but really. One must get on with ones life (especially with things like the Holocaust that was never even in my life in the first place). Dwelling isn't healthy. What do you want? A protest in the street that "Lucas should have never have created midichlorians! He should have kept Han shooting first!" Yeah...smart.

I have a hard time taking this seriously considering how much time you've spent in this thread. If you want to argue for canon and retcons then that's fine, but don't turn around and criticize others that argue against them.

 

Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)

Patently false, however I suspect that your, to be frank, spiteful bias is preventing you from detecting it.

[Ravnas]

Oh yes. John Jackson Miller has a saddistic motive to destroy Avellone's story just for the sake of it. Honestly. Are you living in another world or something? If this was some sort of quasy political game where there are actual stakes and gains to be made besides money, okay. But really. Grow up and look at the world for what it is. Both of these guys are just writers looking to pay for the bread.

 

I'm detecting a lot of, to be frank, spiteful bias.

 

Umm, I wasn't insinuating anything, I was just making a simple observation. Last time I checked though, these people do what they do for more than just making money.

[Jolly Boots]

Oh, well, that's not what you said before. Regardless, this is only your opinion. Without seeing what else is coming, I think it's a little foolish to assume that whatever it is is no good, don't you (especially since you're trying so hard to make a show of not being emotionally invested).

Detecting a bit of spiteful sarcasm. Getting underneath the skin, am I?

 

I'm afraid I'm having difficulty following your train of thought: Are you arguing that people can't love their work?

A doctor doesn't heal unless there's a paycheck in it. It's called being human.

 

But if they retcon it, then it's canon and GL has told you what to think. Or do you wish to change your earlier position on the significance/value of canon?

It's fiction. It's not real. There's one story. And it's not mine.

 

I have a hard time taking this seriously considering how much time you've spent in this thread. If you want to argue for canon and retcons then that's fine, but don't turn around and criticize others that argue against them.

Criticize?

 

Patently false, however I suspect that your, to be frank, spiteful bias is preventing you from detecting it.

I'm not the one getting upset over a piece of fiction being changed.

 

Umm, I wasn't insinuating anything, I was just making a simple observation. Last time I checked though, these people do what they do for more than just making money.

Now that is funny.

[JCarter426]

Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)

 

Ah...not this again...

 

1. Kreia is human; Krynda is not (%100).

2. Kreia's Force Sight was self-inflicted; Krynda's was not.

3. Kreia taught Revan; Krynda did not.

4. I wasn't even talking about Krynda. Mr Miller has already caused retcons due to the Revanchist/Alek Squirmslikeaworm incident.

5. The Council didn't exile her over Revan's fall. They exiled her because her teachings violated the order. It's implied that some of her previous students (i.e. not Revan) fell (in the Council's eyes at least). After the fact, the Council blamed all of its problems on her, including the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Again, this does NOT mean that this is the truth. This is but one opinion--a biased one at that.

[Jolly Boots]

1. Kreia is human; Krynda is not (%100).

Who says?

2. Kreia's Force Sight was self-inflicted; Krynda's was not.

Again. Who says?

3. Kreia taught Revan; Krynda did not.

Do I need to repeat myself?

4. I wasn't even talking about Krynda. Mr Miller has already caused retcons due to the Revanchist/Alek Squirmslikeaworm incident.

Hence the title of the thread...

5. The Council didn't exile her over Revan's fall. They exiled her because her teachings violated the order. It's implied that some of her previous students (i.e. not Revan) fell (in the Council's eyes at least). After the fact, the Council blamed all of its problems on her, including the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Again, this does NOT mean that this is the truth. This is but one opinion--a biased one at that.

Which is why I pointed out that it wasn't because of Revan. And I believe Atris is the lady who says that as well Kreia herself.

[Ravnas]

Now that is funny.

 

Now that is shameless cynicism.

[Jolly Boots]

Now that is shameless cynicism.

Not that people can't enjoy their work it's just that what your suggesting is that we're living is that Avellone would have worked for Lucasarts as a writer for nothing.

[Ravnas]

Oh no I wasn't suggesting that at all. I very much doubt he would do that.

[JCarter426]

Who says?

 

Kreia. And this is one of those times where I'm 99% sure she wasn't lying (can never be 100% with her ).

 

Again. Who says?

 

Again, Kreia.

 

Do I need to repeat myself?

 

This time, it's Mr Miller. He's given us no reason to think that Krynda taught Kreia. Unless he does, it's another retcon.

 

And I believe Atris is the lady who says that as well Kreia herself.

 

Yes, Atris and Kreia. And Vrook. And they're all biased. And they're all wrong.

[Jolly Boots]

Kreia. And this is one of those times where I'm 99% sure she wasn't lying (can never be 100% with her ).

 

 

 

Again, Kreia.

Quotes. I need quotes. She never says she 100% human. Nor does she say that she inflicted Force sight onto herself.

 

This time, it's Mr Miller. He's given us no reason to think that Krynda taught Kreia. Unless he does, it's another retcon.

I assume you mean Revan. But he also hasn't given us reason not to think that. It's possible at this point. And as I've mentioned, Lucien and the others did know Revan(chist) to the point of calling him "friend". And where were Lucien and the others during their training? Krynda's place.

 

Yes, Atris and Kreia. And Vrook. And they're all biased. And they're all wrong.

How are they wrong that the Council exiled her for her teachings? I'm not saying the teachings were wrong. That's an in-game thing. But there isn't anything contradicting that fact besides the fact that Arren Kae was exiled for bumping uglies with Yusanis. Which may or may not contradict it. You can't just blantletly say that they're wrong if nothing is there to contradict it besides a piece of information that comes from speculation of another character. "Oh well, this piece and this piece CAN fit to this so that means THAT is wrong."

[Achilles]

Detecting a bit of spiteful sarcasm. Getting underneath the skin, am I?

Not even close.

 

A doctor doesn't heal unless there's a paycheck in it. It's called being human.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

It's fiction. It's not real. There's one story. And it's not mine.

Neither does this.

 

Criticize?

intransitive verb

: to act as a critic

 

transitive verb

1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

 

I hope that helps.

 

I'm not the one getting upset over a piece of fiction being changed.

Not sure how this is related to what we were discussing. Again, not sure how you can comment on my participation in this thread without also painting your participation with the same brush.

[Jolly Boots]

Not even close.

I don't know. You seem to be taking shots at me where they seem unnecessary and just plain (again) spiteful for the sake of being spiteful.

 

That doesn't answer my question.

One can enjoy their work. They just won't go into the field if there isn't any money in it.

 

Neither does this.

There was a question? I thought you were just taking shots at my intelligence.

 

 

intransitive verb

: to act as a critic

 

transitive verb

1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

 

I hope that helps.

...see first line.

[Melly]

Again, Kreia.

 

Yep. To be exact she says one of the following (Or both. It's been I while since I played and I can't remember. I think she told my PC the first one): "There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction."

 

Or

 

"There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only."

 

I quoted that directly from the .tlk file, but I think that first one is supposed to be "lack of use", because why would they atrophy if they were in use?

[Jolly Boots]

Yep. To be exact she says one of the following (Or both. It's been I while since I played and I can't remember. I think she told my PC the first one): "There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction."

 

Or

 

"There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only."

 

I quoted that directly from the .tlk file, but I think that first one is supposed to be "lack of use", because why would they atrophy if they were in use?

I don't see anywhere in that sentence that she gave herself Force sight. I always interpreted (and I mean, always. Before Krynda even existed.) as she had both at some point (how, never thought about) but then stopped using sight and always used the Force to see.

[Achilles]

I don't know. You seem to be taking shots at me where they seem unnecessary and just plain (again) spiteful for the sake of being spiteful.

The hypocrisy is getting a little thick, friend.

 

One can enjoy their work. They just won't go into the field if there isn't any money in it.

A moment ago, you were arguing for proof about Avellone's motivations, but now you're here making assumptions about them yourself. Surely you can see how hypocritical this is. Having read interviews with Avellone, I know that he's at least willing to tell people that his love of role-play is what got him into the business. And I seriously doubt that you want to argue that video games were the booming industry that they are today 10 years ago or more. Or maybe you do, I don't know.

 

There was a question? I thought you were just taking shots at my intelligence.

Yes, it was a question. I signified that it was a question by adding a question mark to the end of the sentence. I hope that this also helps to clarify any confusion you may have over future use of question marks as well.

 

...see first line.

Your comment was the word "criticize" with question marks after it. I assumed that you were confused about the word's meaning. If I was supposed to divine some other message from this, then I apologize.

[JCarter426]

Quotes. I need quotes. She never says she 100% human.

 

Not exactly. But she refers to Bao-Dur as "the alien" and Visas as "the Miraluka". If she weren't 100% human herself, she most likely wouldn't say this (especially the Miraluka part). However, this definitely is "interpretation", I suppose.

 

Nor does she say that she inflicted Force sight onto herself.

 

Yes, this one she definitely does.

 

Kreia: There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only.

 

Exile: Is it like Visas' eyes? Were you blinded as she was?

 

Kreia: There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction. When one relies on sight to perceive the world, it is like trying to stare at the galaxy through a crack in the door. But that is a lesson for another time. You must learn to see crude matter for what it is before the veil is lifted

 

OK, she got a little preachy at the end. But she does assert that her eyes are not like Visas' eyes, furthermore implying that she is not part Miraluka.

 

 

I assume you mean Revan.

 

Whoops, got me there.

 

But he also hasn't given us reason not to think that. It's possible at this point. And as I've mentioned, Lucien and the others did know Revan(chist) to the point of calling him "friend". And where were Lucien and the others during their training? Krynda's place.

 

We've seen all the ones Krynda taught. None of them were Revan. But yes, it is possible; however, that would require Mr Miller to retcon his own work.

 

How are they wrong that the Council exiled her for her teachings? I'm not saying the teachings were wrong. That's an in-game thing.

 

Didn't say that. They were wrong that her teachings led to the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. As I said, they blamed her ex post facto.

 

But there isn't anything contradicting that fact besides the fact that Arren Kae was exiled for bumping uglies with Yusanis.

 

We only have Kreia's word on this matter. And as I said earlier, Kreia lies. A lot. Especially about herself. Furthermore, it would be in her character to blame the Council for exiling her over the birth of her daughter, rather than exiling her for her own failures.

 

One further note: Kreia only admits that she was exiled because her teachings violated the order when the Exile calls her on it. And after that, she won't even talk about Revan when asked if she were to blame.

[Jolly Boots]

Not exactly. But she refers to Bao-Dur as "the alien" and Visas as "the Miraluka". If she weren't 100% human herself, she most likely wouldn't say this (especially the Miraluka part). However, this definitely is "interpretation", I suppose.

I never thought that Krynda would think herself as Miraluka. Since she likes to praise the pure-bloods very much. She doesn't seem to see herself "as one of them."

 

 

 

Yes, this one she definitely does.

 

 

 

OK, she got a little preachy at the end. But she does assert that her eyes are not like Visas' eyes, furthermore implying that she is not part Miraluka.

 

 

I don't see anywhere in that sentence that she gave herself Force sight. I always interpreted (and I mean, always. Before Krynda even existed.) as she had both at some point (how, never thought about) but then stopped using sight and always used the Force to see.

 

We've seen all the ones Krynda taught. None of them were Revan. But yes, it is possible; however, that would require Mr Miller to retcon his own work.

Well. We've only seen the estate with students at it once. Revan was in the toilet at the time maybe. *shrug* Wouldn't be the first time one would have to recon ones own work. Though I don't think this is recon.

 

 

 

Didn't say that. They were wrong that her teachings led to the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. As I said, they blamed her ex post facto.

Ah. I see.

 

 

 

We only have Kreia's word on this matter. And as I said earlier, Kreia lies. A lot. Especially about herself. Furthermore, it would be in her character to blame the Council for exiling her over the birth of her daughter, rather than exiling her for her own failures.

 

One further note: Kreia only admits that she was exiled because her teachings violated the order when the Exile calls her on it. And after that, she won't even talk about Revan when

asked if she were to blame.

But she does blame the Council for exiling her for her supposed failures. Both parties say she was exiled for the fall of her students. I would say that's pretty much solid. Or maybe I'm having trouble interpreting what exactly your trying to put across.

[JCarter426]

I never thought that Krynda would think herself as Miraluka. Since she likes to praise the pure-bloods very much. She doesn't seem to see herself "as one of them."

 

Ah, but what does Kreia think? She hates Visas, and uses the term "the Miraluka" as if it's an insult. Maybe Mr Miller is going to explain that too. But I doubt it.

 

But she does blame the Council for exiling her for her supposed failures. Both parties say she was exiled for the fall of her students. I would say that's pretty much solid. Or maybe I'm having trouble interpreting what exactly your trying to put across.

 

Maybe. My point was that Kreia only admits this when the Exile calls her lie. This happens a lot, actually, usually if the player passes a [Wisdom] or [Awareness] check (oh, Obsidian...you never cease to amaze; those were probably the best addition to K2 next to Kreia and the Hawk scenes ).

 

Anyway, where was I? Right. The Exile asks Kreia about Atris. Kreia then says that she "walked her path". The Exile questions her about it, forcing Kreia to admit that she was exiled because the Council didn't approve of her teachings (though she still doesn't admit that it was her fault). Different scenario than when she claims that Kae was exiled because of her child; in this case, Kreia knows that the Exile doesn't know a thing about Kae, because Kreia's the one to bring up the name. So there's no way the Exile can call Kreia on her lie.

[Blix]

I found it odd when searching through the most recent topic pages that there was no thread such as this (and I apologize if there is and I missed it...). So, here it is: what do you believe is Kreia's true identity?

 

There has been a great amount of discussion - much of it, I am sure, on these forums - over whether Kreia was indeed the fabled Jedi Master Arren Kae, mentioned briefly in Knights of the Old Republic II, and mother of the Handmaiden. On the little information we have to go on, the possibility is indeed quite likely - though not particularly strong.

 

Another popular theory is that Kreia is instead the similarly named Krynda Draay from the new comics. As they share numerous similarities, supporters of the theory believe that the story arc will conclude with the revelation that the two women are in fact the same person. However, this possibility is based on circumstantial evidence only, and nothing concrete linking the two has yet been revealed.

 

Krynda... possibly?

 

Or... has Kreia just always been Kreia, with only the one alter-ego: that of Darth Traya?

 

I am eager to hear your views.

 

While I don't know for certain if Kreia is in fact Arren Kae, I do know that-that pic is a fake. This one from wookiepedia shows the actual undhooded version of Kreia.

[Jolly Boots]

Ah, but what does Kreia think? She hates Visas, and uses the term "the Miraluka" as if it's an insult. Maybe Mr Miller is going to explain that too. But I doubt it.

I thought she hated her because she was a pathetic excuse for a Sith. That and the whole connection to Nihilus, one the guys she wants to kill. Seems to be a lot more then just a Miraluka thing.

 

Anyway, where was I? Right. The Exile asks Kreia about Atris. Kreia then says that she "walked her path". The Exile questions her about it, forcing Kreia to admit that she was exiled because the Council didn't approve of her teachings (though she still doesn't admit that it was her fault). Different scenario than when she claims that Kae was exiled because of her child; in this case, Kreia knows that the Exile doesn't know a thing about Kae, because Kreia's the one to bring up the name. So there's no way the Exile can call Kreia on her lie.

Ah I see what your saying. And it would make sense since love and attachments at the time weren't banned as of yet considering the whole Nomi Sunrider, Andur, Ulic thing just forty years before and how Jolee says he wasn't supposed to get married. Which I believe JJM might be fixing that little screw up on Biowares part - and then continued by Avellone. See? Not all bad.

 

Anyway. I can't really make the connection there since it seems so far distant from each other and so unrelated to each other and seems circumstantial.