Gender Jihad/Islamic Feminism

[Achilles]

However, I'd be hesitant to cherry pick a few verses out of the Koran without a. looking at them in the original Arabic

And you learned Koine Greek and Hebrew so you could read the bible?

 

and b. reading them in context with the rest of the text.

And what context, other than a proceeding paragraph which reads, "the following is an example of what we do NOT believe" would change what you read?

 

As far as I know, the qu'ran does not include a convoluted tradition of "old testament vs. new testament" to hide behind.

[Jae Onasi]

It depends on the country. In some predominantly Muslim countries someone can be non-Muslim without much concern. In places like Sudan, professing anything other than Muslim faith could earn you ex-communication from family and community, physical abuse, or death. For women in Sudan it is particularly difficult. Men who've been kicked out of their family can move to another place and still make a living. A woman, however, will be without any way to support herself because few women can get a job or do anything on their own outside of the home.

 

It's taken about 100 years to break a lot of the gender barriers in the US, and we still have work to do. It won't happen overnight in the rest of the world, either.

 

edit:

And you learned Koine Greek and Hebrew so you could read the Bible?

They're on my copious list of classes to take at a university if I were independently wealthy. I have a Greek and Hebrew key word study Bible. Two of the pastors at our church have learned Greek and Hebrew, so I can always ask them if there's a question that I can't answer.

[SilentScope001]

My question is, can the West see past the Orientalist images they have conjured up and accept that modernity is not necessarily the Western idea?

 

*cough* My question is, can the West see past the Orientalist images they have conjured up and accept that it is only Westerns who are debating about these Orientalist images and no Muslim has ever actually posted in this thread until now? *cough*

 

Do realize also that many, MANY Muslims see the Orientalists images as fact, and want to actually change society to fit the Western World. In other words, modernity is a western ideal. However, these 'many' aren't really that visible...or even really a whole lot. It's all goes down to geogpaphical conceration really, some Muslims are for it, other Muslims aren't. Meh.

 

As for Islamic Feminism, I may agree with you, but there are limits. Ban honor killing, yeah (honor killing is a part of their culture, not a part of Islam). Wear blue jeans, yeah (I don't see how anything can prohibit that). Take off the Hijab, sure, some men actually agree with that (their argument usually centers around the fact that the Hijab was a Sunnah, not Fard). Lead world governments? Well...*points to Bhutto*

 

But have the female lead Salah prayers? Uh...

 

Yes, you haven't mentioned that...but there are those who may advocate that. And Turkey actually allow for women to lead the Salah and to become Imams. But, erm, not many other Muslims agree with that. I do advocate for the peservation of rituals here. You can't start modifying these rituals here without any good reason, considering that the supposed origins of these rituals are divine (And don't you DARE start attacking the origins of these rituals, Achilles).

 

There. That's one lone Muslim voice about Islamic Feminism. You will be better off talking to actual Islamic Feminists though, I'm a male. I strongly urge you to talk to MUSLIMS. They're the ones having to follow this, you know.

 

EDIT: And, ahem, but I'm going to try to find out the various Islamic interpretion for these verses, and find new Quarnic verses too. It will take me a while.

 

EDIT2: In order to prove the existance of liberal Islam, Turkey's Diyanet. In fact, the offical Turkish government has banned the wearing of the Hijab in public universties and other places sinc ehte 1990's...however, that ban may be overturned by the new government. The problem is, that government is likely going to be outlawed by the Judicary System for violating the secular nature of Turkey by attempting to overturn the ban of Hijab.

[Jae Onasi]

Standard disclaimer when discussing religion: Atheism vs. Theism arguments belong in that thread, not this one. Any posts that look like they're Atheism vs. Islam type discussions will get edited or deleted out of this particular thread since that's off-topic.

[JediMaster12]

Forgive my "moving of the goal post" Achilles. When I was writing this topic I was struggling how to start my topic paper on this subject. ocus is hard when you got a lot of drama on your plate.

 

SS001: The Western notion of modernity is emphasis on the individual, materialistic and obsession with appearance and social status, which is seen as selfishness in the eyes of the Lebanese Shi'a women in al-Dahiyya. This is contradictory in part with the materialistic is in their eyes modernity is a two-pronged process that involves materialistic and spiritual progress.

Islamic feminism focuses more on the community hence why I brought up the 'pious modern' woman. This woman is the ideal woman who demonstrates knowledge of and practice authenticated Islam, dedication to self improvment, participation in the public life and the betterment of the community. They see the "westernized" person as the empty modern since the self improvement is just for themselves and not the community. As for the "traditional" woman, they see it as a person "who practices religion improperly or without true comprehension and who believes that her only role is a domestic one" (Deeb, 2006, p.30).

The role model that this particular group of women have is Sayyida Zaynab. She is particularly important during the commemortaion of Ashura. This is the martyrdom of Imam Husayn. Zaynab was Husayn's suster and she led the group taken in captivity on the tenth of Muharram. (Note: Ashura means ten). The reinterpretation of Zaynab's character in authenticated Islam have depicted her as a person with courage strength and resilience. She became the person who stood up in the face of the oppressor and told him that she was the victor.

Western women have their folk heroes that paved the way for the feminism that followed. A general example are the suffragettes of the 1920's. What differs, from the Islamic perspective, is that the extreme feminism, being equal as men is an irrational absolute equality. From what I gather, the extremist view doesn't make sense and why should it at least from their point of view? Perhaps it goes back to what I mentioned earlier in that it is a combination of the spiritual and materialistic. Contradictory to the materialistic being selfish but it is compensated with the fact that be dedicating to self-improvement, it is for the betterment of the community.

 

I realize I may sound like a broken record but that is how I viewed the subject .

[Achilles]

Forgive my "moving of the goal post" Achilles. When I was writing this topic I was struggling how to start my topic paper on this subject. ocus is hard when you got a lot of drama on your plate.

Apology accepted.

 

The Western notion of modernity is emphasis on the individual, materialistic and obsession with appearance and social status, which is seen as selfishness in the eyes of the Lebanese Shi'a women in al-Dahiyya.

I think the introduction of Materialism is your doing.

 

Modernity is neutral with regards to obessions with appearance, social status (in the context that it seems is being used here), and selfishness.

[JediMaster12]

Apology accepted.

 

I think the introduction of Materialism is your doing.

 

Modernity is neutral with regards to obessions with appearance, social status (in the context that it seems is being used here), and selfishness.

 

Read Lara Deeb An Enchanted Modern (2006). Most of what I spoke of modernity and materialistic is based upon her field work and what her interlocutors provided her. If you think about it though, we do place a great deal of emphasis on the self and the word mine, etc. Stop and think from the point that this is seen from a community who's own ideas and social values differ greatly from ours.

[SilentScope001]

SS001: [wall of text]

 

Thanks JediMaster12. I was going to write something similar to that, after listenting to one Muslim woman preacher said almost the exact same thing you said. I do need to find those quotes and the explanations soon.

 

But I still believe modernity is a 'Western' ideal, because it was invented in the halls of Europe, not because it is actually grand and all, and that Islamic Feminists are trying to hybridize it with traditional Islamic norms. Which isn't really a bad idea, but meh. I'm an ethical relativist at heart. Plus, I don't see it as "authenticated" at all (or at least regard it with some suspicion, just in case), but it's really my own personal beliefs, which many Muslims will disagree with. Otherwise, I would be committing a "true scotman" fallacy, and nobody wants logical fallacies.

[Achilles]

Read Lara Deeb An Enchanted Modern (2006). Most of what I spoke of modernity and materialistic is based upon her field work and what her interlocutors provided her.

Then I guess I owe you an apology. It is her, not you, that is adding materialism to modernity.

 

If you think about it though, we do place a great deal of emphasis on the self and the word mine, etc. Stop and think from the point that this is seen from a community who's own ideas and social values differ greatly from ours.

There are Western tendencies toward materialism and then there is modernity. I guess I would need to see a pretty persuasive argument to convince me that they have to be synonymous.

[Web Rider]

SS001: The Western notion of modernity is emphasis on the individual, materialistic and obsession with appearance and social status, which is seen as selfishness in the eyes of the Lebanese Shi'a women in al-Dahiyya.

I want to address this statement because of it's inherent truth buried under the BS of not looking deep enough. I'll state the obvious of, what is "Western" is an over generalization of bits and pieces picked out from what is usually America. I'm not a spokesman for Europe, but it's really simple to see that "Western" while in general and often very similar between the US, Canada, and Europe(including Russia here too), is not a standard line.

 

Throughout history, "western" culture has indeed placed an emphasis on the self, hence the popular concept of a "self-made man". To equate this with selfishness is to assume that social status is gained by destroying others to get anywhere. It is also a very casual look at the "West" and it's history, personal achievements are not always for the benefit of the individual. Perhaps the guy who invented the pacemaker wanted a name in history, but at the same time, through his desire to make a name for himself, he did so through helping the community. While pure altruism is great, it is still a rare commodity in most of humanity, Western or otherwise.

 

They see the "westernized" person as the empty modern since the self improvement is just for themselves and not the community.

 

I realize these aren't your statements, but I want to address them anyway.

I think it's the easy way out to equate personal success with throwing the community out the window. However, personal success, advancement and achievement can very easily translate into community success. If students strive hard in school and do well, even if it's for their own good, they and their school(the "community") are rewarded with more intelligent people who can work better jobs, bring better jobs into the community, help others in educating themselves, and so on.

 

People often complain about how "the west" examines other cultures from a western perspective, this above statement seems to do the opposite, judge western cultures and values based on if they existed in a Middle Eastern/Islamic setting(where they would be percieved as "bad").

 

Western women have their folk heroes that paved the way for the feminism that followed. A general example are the suffragettes of the 1920's. What differs, from the Islamic perspective, is that the extreme feminism, being equal as men is an irrational absolute equality.

Personally, equality is irrational and stupid. Equity is a great idea though. No two people will ever be equal, regardless of legislation that says otherwise. People can however, be quite equitable, that is, they have the same chances, they can take the same risks, work the same jobs, get the pay they earn based on the quality of their work. That can make two people seem very similar, but they remain equitable, not equal.

 

There are a WIDE spectrum of people who advocate a variety of things for women, some believe in a "seperate" system(not seperate but equal, a system where men and women operate under two different systems).

 

But I still believe modernity is a 'Western' ideal, because it was invented in the halls of Europe, not because it is actually grand and all, and that Islamic Feminists are trying to hybridize it with traditional Islamic norms. Which isn't really a bad idea, but meh. I'm an ethical relativist at heart. Plus, I don't see it as "authenticated" at all (or at least regard it with some suspicion, just in case), but it's really my own personal beliefs, which many Muslims will disagree with. Otherwise, I would be committing a "true scotman" fallacy, and nobody wants logical fallacies.

 

I have to chuckle when people say that "modernity" is the invention of the West. The Islamic nation was far more advanced and "modern" than Europe for a long time. Perhaps current modernism is a western development, but the concept of equality, equity, fairness, rule of law, ect...that are the basic concepts that modernity have grown out of existed in Islamic societies in the past.

[JediMaster12]

However, personal success, advancement and achievement can very easily translate into community success.

I believe I did add on to this stating that for the pious modern, self improvement was a means of enabling her to better the community.

 

People often complain about how "the west" examines other cultures from a western perspective, this above statement seems to do the opposite, judge western cultures and values based on if they existed in a Middle Eastern/Islamic setting(where they would be percieved as "bad").

And don't we all do it? An anthropologist would tell you that it is ethnocentrism, the viewing and judgment of a culture by one's own standards. Yes the east is equally as bad as the west and tha is based upon the societal norms that are instilled in a culture.

 

Equity is a great idea though. No two people will ever be equal, regardless of legislation that says otherwise. People can however, be quite equitable, that is, they have the same chances, they can take the same risks, work the same jobs, get the pay they earn based on the quality of their work.

Sounds like the basics of capitalism to me. Everyone has a fair shot, etc.

 

Plus, I don't see it as "authenticated" at all (or at least regard it with some suspicion, just in case)

Deeb uses "authenticated" due to the specific nature and type of word that was used to describe this reinterpretation of Islam. Her interlocuters used different terms but never specifically said "authenticated." That is Deeb's assessment.

 

Perhaps I should point out that Lara Deeb is Lebanese. Her family is Orthodox Christian which actual makes up part of the population of the neighborhood al-Dahiyya. That may be some bias but she is not a practicing Muslim so she is coming from an outsider view and she has had attempts made to convert her.

[Web Rider]

Sounds like the basics of capitalism to me. Everyone has a fair shot, etc.

 

Yeah, it could be. But you don't have equity of ability in centrally planned or highly socialistic governments. People work the jobs they're told, if the government is very good at what it does, they may even work jobs they're good at. The high focus on community limits a person from taking any job they want because they risk the success of the community if they leave.

 

But yeah, capitalism, or at least, a free market, goes hand in hand with modern ideas about freedom and such. You can't really say you're free if you don't have the right to work where you would like.