Prove that jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

[Achilles]

You can make the text as large as you like but it isn't going to make your analogy comparable.

[M@RS]

You can make the text as large as you like but it isn't going to make your analogy comparable.

 

You did this in the last thread... it was an example, GOOD LORD! don't you get that?! EXAMPLE! it was so you could get it, it's not supposed to be what you're talking about, it's an example.

[Achilles]

Yes, I get that. And I am pointing out that it is a poor one; jesus appearing and god giving you a car are not comparable.

[M@RS]

Yes, I get that. And I am pointing out that it is a poor one; jesus appearing and god giving you a car are not comparable.

 

It's an example, if you want a better one just tell me...

[Achilles]

Yeah, if you have a better one, that would be great.

[M@RS]

Okay, first of all I think I should apologize, for screaming at you like I did. I'm sorry, I read Romans 2 and I felt I should apologize.

 

And another example, hmm, give me a while to think about this one...

 

Alright, let's take an omniscent Bumblebee (transformers) and Sam asked Bumblebee to show himself to Sam, and Bumblebee didn't because someone else had claimed that Bumblebee showed up to them and had coffe with them... Now let's put that in the sense of God and you...if God (Jesus) showed himself to you and you went telling other people, noone would believe you because people have already made a mockery of it, like I had coffee with Jesus or lunch...They would make fun of you, and if you were a christian, then God wouldn't show himself...

 

Does that work?

[Rev7]

Acts can be coincidental and "voices" can be the symptoms of psychosis. Per the video (and scripture) we know that jesus can appear to people and that he has appeared to people. So what good reason do we have to explain why he hasn't appeared to you?

Yes I know that He has appeared to people. He can appear to anyone and has done so. My mother has a picture of Jesus standing on the wing of an airplane. Her friend gave this to her in the 1980's. I cannot prove that to you though because I don't personally have the picture. It is not on the Internet either. That is all that I will say about that for now, and all that I will say about it.

We have evidence for the existence of air, therefore the analogy does not apply

I believe that we have evidence of existance of Jesus too. The Bible.

 

If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored.

Yup. You do not really know if our prayer was ignored. How do you really have proof of this?

 

This doesn't address my point. Other religions require faith as well, therefore you cannot argue that christianity is somehow unique in this regard or that requiring faith makes it true.

 

It requires faith to believe that invisible fairies ride around in my shirt pocket too, but that doesn't mean that they exist.

Other religions require faith too. I am not saying that they don't.

 

That is exactly what I am saying Achilles. It does require faith to believe that invisible fairies are riding around in your shirt pocket. It does require faith to believe that Jesus exists.

 

What about gravity? We know that it keeps us on Earth. For all we know, we have invisible fairies holding us down.

 

The passage clearly states that jesus can appear to people and has appeared to people. Are you disputing that?

Not at all.

 

Gee, that sounds very similar to Excuse #2

I knew that you would say that.

 

"You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it."

 

We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts.

 

I understand that it is your opinion that he has misinterpreted those passages, however you haven't really presented an argument showing how he misinterpreted them or show why we should accept your opinion over his.

Are you saying that the people that make up the "facts" are really stating their own opinion?

 

 

 

Take care.

You too.

[Achilles]

And another example, hmm, give me a while to think about this one...

<snip>

Does that work?

You're still trying to use an example of something relatively extraordinary as an analogy for something relatively ordinary.

 

Even if he would not appear to me for fear that I would mock him (even though I've stated repeatedly that all it would take for me to become a believer is some evidence), that doesn't explain why he does not appear to you or Rev7.

 

Yes I know that He has appeared to people. He can appear to anyone and has done so. My mother has a picture of Jesus standing on the wing of an airplane. Her friend gave this to her in the 1980's. I cannot prove that to you though because I don't personally have the picture. It is not on the Internet either. That is all that I will say about that for now, and all that I will say about it.

Sounds like an interesting picture.

 

I believe that we have evidence of existance of Jesus too. The Bible.

We have evidence for allah via the qu'ran, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster via the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for Harry Potter via the best selling books. But I'm willing to bet that you aren't a muslim, a Pastafarian, or a pracitioner of wizardry. Why not?

 

Yup. You do not really know if our prayer was ignored. How do you really have proof of this?

Either the prayer was answered or it was not.

 

Other religions require faith too. I am not saying that they don't.

You're not responding to the argument in it's entirety.

 

That is exactly what I am saying Achilles. It does require faith to believe that invisible fairies are riding around in your shirt pocket. It does require faith to believe that Jesus exists.

Does this mean that you will now pray to invisible fairies, magic teapots, or any other silly thing I think up as an example?

 

What about gravity? We know that it keeps us on Earth. For all we know, we have invisible fairies holding us down.

Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis? Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis over any of the other countless possible explanations that are all equally untestable?

 

Not at all.

Then I'm struggling to understand what your point was.

 

I knew that you would say that.

Yes you did. Which tells me that you're smart enough to know better

 

Are you saying that the people that make up the "facts" are really stating their own opinion?

No, what I'm saying is, "don't bring opinions to a fact fight".

 

Your opinions do not change what the bible says. If you are not disputing what the bible says, then you are not discounting the author's arguments. And if you are not discounting the author's arguments then I'm left to wonder on what grounds you are contesting what he said (since that seemed to be your original point).

[M@RS]

You're still trying to use an example of something relatively extraordinary as an analogy for something relatively ordinary.

 

Even if he would not appear to me for fear that I would mock him (even though I've stated repeatedly that all it would take for me to become a believer is some evidence), that doesn't explain why he does not appear to you or Rev7.

 

As I said in the above, if I told someone that I was a christian and Jesus had shown himself to me, they would say that I was a religious freak and make fun of me AND God...

 

And hopefully here is some evidence (a story is about to be told about my father below)

 

My dad was going through a really hard time, and at a service he went to the altar and was praying to God to give him his identity, no sooner had he thought the word IDENTITY, the pastor said, _______ God has told me to tell you one word, IDENTITY... Today my dad's a pastor and he's never been happier

[Rev7]

We have evidence for allah via the qu'ran, for the Flying Spaghetti Monster via the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and for Harry Potter via the best selling books. But I'm willing to bet that you aren't a muslim, a Pastafarian, or a pracitioner of wizardry. Why not?

Why not? I don't believe any of that stuff to be true, and wizardry is not a good thing in my eyes. I am also not muslim. I don't believe those things to be true.

Either the prayer was answered or it was not.

Okay? How do you know that it wasn't answered?

You're not responding to the argument in it's entirety.

I don't understand what you are saying. I know what faith is.

 

Does this mean that you will now pray to invisible fairies, magic teapots, or any other silly thing I think up as an example?

Where exactly did I say that?

 

Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis? Why would a rational person accept this hypothesis over any of the other countless possible explanations that are all equally untestable?

I don't accept that as truth. I was just making a point. Whether or not you saw that point, I don't know.

 

I am curious why a large number of people believe that Jesus was real/is real? Are you saying that all of these people are irrational?

 

Then I'm struggling to understand what your point was.

That he does/can appear to people?

Yes you did. Which tells me that you're smart enough to know better

I was putting myself in your shoes.

 

No, what I'm saying is, "don't bring opinions to a fact fight".

Okay, I guess that I mis-interpreted you then. I am sorry.

 

Your opinions do not change what the bible says. If you are not disputing what the bible says, then you are not discounting the author's arguments. And if you are not discounting the author's arguments then I'm left to wonder on what grounds you are contesting what he said (since that seemed to be your original point).

I don't quite understand what you are trying to get across....how am I disputing what the Bible says....??

 

 

Good Night!

[Achilles]

As I said in the above, if I told someone that I was a christian and Jesus had shown himself to me, they would say that I was a religious freak and make fun of me AND God...

Completely irrelevant.

 

And hopefully here is some evidence (a story is about to be told about my father below)

<snip>

"Pinch, poke, you owe me a coke" is your evidence for god?

[M@RS]

You're not making any sense whatsoever...in what's with the "coke" saying...you asked for evidence I gave you a second hand story I was told from my dad...That's evidence isn't it? I forgot to say that, he experienced the whole thing, you think he'd lie to me?

[Achilles]

Why not? I don't believe any of that stuff to be true, and wizardry is not a good thing in my eyes. I am also not muslim. I don't believe those things to be true.

Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

 

Okay? How do you know that it wasn't answered?

Because jesus didn't appear.

 

I don't understand what you are saying. I know what faith is.

"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

 

Where exactly did I say that?

It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

 

I don't accept that as truth. I was just making a point. Whether or not you saw that point, I don't know.

Your point wasn't much of a point

 

I am curious why a large number of people believe that Jesus was real/is real? Are you saying that all of these people are irrational?

Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

 

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

 

That he does/can appear to people?

What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

 

I was putting myself in your shoes.

Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter.

 

I don't quite understand what you are trying to get across....how am I disputing what the Bible says....??

If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

 

I hope that helps to clarify.

 

You're not making any sense whatsoever...in what's with the "coke" saying...

This should help.

 

you asked for evidence I gave you a second hand story I was told from my dad...That's evidence isn't it?

No sir it is not. No more so than it is evidence that your father's pastor was psychic.

 

I forgot to say that, he experienced the whole thing, you think he'd lie to me?

No need for lies. I have no doubt that the events really happened. I have every reason to doubt that they signify what you seem to think they signify (or what he thought they signified, etc).

[M@RS]

Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

 

Because jesus didn't appear.

 

"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

 

It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

 

Your point wasn't much of a point

 

Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

 

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

 

What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

 

Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter.

 

If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

 

I hope that helps to clarify.

 

This should help.

 

No sir it is not. No more so than it is evidence that your father's pastor was psychic.

 

No need for lies. I have no doubt that the events really happened. I have every reason to doubt that they signify what you seem to think they signify (or what he thought they signified, etc).

 

Okay first of all, don't treat me stupid, with the Jinx I know what it is, what I asked was why did you say that? And they do signify what my father and I knew it signified, show how it wasn't

[Achilles]

Okay first of all, don't treat me stupid, with the Jinx I know what it is, what I asked was why did you say that?

That isn't what you asked at all.

 

And they do signify what my father and I knew it signified, show how it wasn't

The burden of proof is yours, sir. There are numerous possible explanations, not the least of which is the aforementioned psychic abilities (which I don't believe either but since I can't rule it out...). Therefore, the conclusion that you've accepted is not the only one and the others have not been ruled out.

 

The fact that we have the "jinx" game tells us that people thinking or saying things at the same time is by no stretch of the imagination a rare occurrence.

[Rev7]

Why do you believe in christianity? Thus far you have just as much evidence for that as you do these other things. Is your selection arbitrary?

Why do I believe in Christianity? I believe that Jesus is real, and that he died for my sins, and the sins of the world on the cross. I also believe that He rose from the dead.

 

How exactly can I have "just as much evidence for that as you do these other things"? I am agrueing against these other things.

 

No, my selection is not arbitrary.

 

Because jesus didn't appear.

So, if you ask someone to do something via a telephone, you have to see this person appear to make sure that they actually did what you asked?

 

"Faith" is not a good argument. If you know that "faith" is required for other things, then "faith" doesn't seem like a particularly rigorous way of determining truth.

That is what you think. I certainly think that faith is 'rigorous'. I think that what I am doing has rigor. I am trying to convince you that He is real. I think that YOU think that it is more of a joke. At least I am trying. That is all that I can do. That takes faith, and rigor. I think that many others would think the same.

 

It was a question. You're free to answer however you'd like.

Oh, I am sorry. I didn't see it as a question originally. To answer that question, no I will not pray to an 'invisible fairiy".

 

 

Your point wasn't much of a point

Okay.....

 

Since this isn't Kavar's I think I'm still allowed to say "yes".

 

..at least with regards to their beliefs.

And how exactly would Kavar's change your opinion.

 

I think that many people would think that your view is irrational.

 

What is your evidence? If you believe this is true then what is your source of contention with the author's video?

Okay then. I know that Jesus can/has appeared to people (I know that has already been stated). I am not diputing that. I never disputed that.

 

 

 

Being able to figure out what someone else is going to say before they say it is a good skill to have. The best way to apply it is to not say what you were going to if their response isn't something you can counter.

Thank you.

 

If you are contesting what the author says then you are contesting what the bible says. If you are not contesting what the bible says, then you cannot contest what the author says. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that what the author says skews what it actually said in the bible. Which you have opted not to do up to this point.

I have already stated what I think to be is 'skewed'.

Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it.

 

You have also stated that you think that what I said was an "excuse".

 

 

Thanks for your time.

[jonathan7]

No takers on the 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, so perhaps we'll have better luck with this one:

 

That's untrue; I answered in Kavar's; http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2454619&postcount=383

[ET Warrior]

Why do I believe in Christianity? I believe that Jesus is real, and that he died for my sins, and the sins of the world on the cross. I also believe that He rose from the dead.

That doesn't really address why you believe those things...which seemed to me the point of the question.

No, my selection is not arbitrary.

On what criteria did you make your selection then? Is there more evidence to support Christianity over Judaism or Islam? (Or any other myriad of options...)

So, if you ask someone to do something via a telephone, you have to see this person appear to make sure that they actually did what you asked?

If I asked them to come over to my house to eat pizza and drink beer, then...yes. Otherwise I can be fairly confident that they did not do what I asked.

And how exactly would Kavar's change your opinion.

 

I think that many people would think that your view is irrational.

I very much doubt his actual opinion would change, he simply would not voice it in Kavar's because they are touchy about his word choice there.

[Achilles]

Why do I believe in Christianity? I believe that Jesus is real, and that he died for my sins, and the sins of the world on the cross. I also believe that He rose from the dead.

But believing something doesn't make it true. I can believe that Monica Bellucci fantasizes about me, but that doesn't mean that it happens.

 

I might specify Monica Bellucci in my example because I find her particularly attractive and I want to believe that it's true. That belief might even cause me to feel like the irresistible hunk o' burnin' love that I am, but even that won't make it true.

 

Therefore, as I've stated repeatedly, having a belief/faith about something doesn't tell me anything about how real or true it is.

 

How exactly can I have "just as much evidence for that as you do these other things"? I am agrueing against these other things.

There is zero evidence. Therefore the quantity of evidence for them is all the same (i.e. none).

 

No, my selection is not arbitrary.

I'll take your word for it, but you'll still need to show me how this isn't the case.

 

So, if you ask someone to do something via a telephone, you have to see this person appear to make sure that they actually did what you asked?

This example is not even close to what we're discussing. The bible says that jesus is among us. Introducing the "other end of a phone" scenario is disingenuous.

 

That is what you think. I certainly think that faith is 'rigorous'. I think that what I am doing has rigor. I am trying to convince you that He is real. I think that YOU think that it is more of a joke. At least I am trying. That is all that I can do. That takes faith, and rigor. I think that many others would think the same.

Sir, "faith" is an argument for jesus just as much as it is an argument for islam, paganism, or any other diametrically opposed belief system that you wish to think up. Arguing that faith is an intellectually rigorous reason for accepting christianity is arguing that it is also an intellectually rigorous reason for believing in invisible pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster. Do you accept them as being real as well?

 

If not, then by the very same logic you must accept that faith is not a good reason for believing in jesus or god either.

 

Oh, I am sorry. I didn't see it as a question originally. To answer that question, no I will not pray to an 'invisible fairiy".

Why not?

 

And how exactly would Kavar's change your opinion.

It's wouldn't, however there are certain words that I'm not allowed to use there. "Irrational" is one of them. "Delusion" is another.

 

I think that many people would think that your view is irrational.

And I would welcome them to discuss that with me any time they would like.

 

Okay then. I know that Jesus can/has appeared to people (I know that has already been stated). I am not diputing that. I never disputed that.

Okay then, if you follow the steps in the video, why does he not appear?

 

Thank you.

You're welcome

 

I have already stated what I think to be is 'skewed'.

<snip>

You have also stated that you think that what I said was an "excuse".

That's because it was

 

That's untrue; I answered in Kavar's; http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2454619&postcount=383

No my friend, you 100% did not. Putting words on a page is not the same thing as answering the question.

 

Example.

Question: Achilles, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream?

Response: I could really use a nap.

 

I posted a reply. There were words exchanged. I did not answer the question.

[jonathan7]

No my friend, you 100% did not. Putting words on a page is not the same thing as answering the question.

 

Example.

Question: Achilles, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream?

Response: I could really use a nap.

 

I posted a reply. There were words exchanged. I did not answer the question.

 

You said 'takers' I took the 10 questions and put forth my answers

[Achilles]

You said 'takers' I took the 10 questions and put forth my answers

I think you and I are going to quibble of word meanings here, my friend. I acknowledge that you did, in fact, post a reply. You did not however answer any of the questions.

 

Since no one was able to answer any of the questions, there were in fact no takers.

[jonathan7]

I think you and I are going to quibble of word meanings here, my friend.

 

Yup

 

I acknowledge that you did, in fact, post a reply. You did not however answer any of the questions.

 

Since no one was able to answer any of the questions, there were in fact no takers.

 

I think we are going quibble here, I answered the questions, you disagreed with those answers; but disagreement over an answer does not mean I didn't offer an answer. It means that you didn't think my answer was correct.

 

As such I think your analogy is flawed;

 

Question: Achilles, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream?

Response: I could really use a nap.

 

One of the following I would venture is a better analogy;

 

Q 1+1=?

A 11

 

Q 1+1=?

A 2

 

Take Care, I only spotted you were reviewing this thread as was sending you a message, I'm heading back to my usual hang out of Knights...

[Achilles]

I think we are going quibble here, I answered the questions, you disagreed with those answers; but disagreement over an answer does not mean I didn't offer an answer. It means that you didn't think my answer was correct.

I disagreed that they were answers, not with what they said (although I disagree with that too ).

 

As such I think your analogy is flawed;

One of the following I would venture is a better analogy;

No, that's an example of getting an answer wrong. Bit different

[jonathan7]

No, that's an example of getting an answer wrong. Bit different

 

A wrong answer is what is at the heart of the matter though, as one of us is wrong; I shall however have another stab at the 10 questions over in Kavar's, I'll address this video in it too.

 

Anways, thats officially my last post in this neighbourhood, I spotted some people eyeing up my lightsaber, so I'm outta here

[Rev7]

That doesn't really address why you believe those things...which seemed to me the point of the question.

On what criteria did you make your selection then? Is there more evidence to support Christianity over Judaism or Islam? (Or any other myriad of options...)

Sorry! I am a little tired. I guess that I will start over then. I want to point out that I am a non-denominational Christian. I don't go to 'church' very much, but I read the Bible a lot, and try my best to live by the Word of God. Why not Judaism or Islam for example, I don't agree with all* that is taught in those religions. I am simply a Christian. That is all that I think that I can say on that part....

 

(*)= it certainly ranges!

 

If I asked them to come over to my house to eat pizza and drink beer, then...yes. Otherwise I can be fairly confident that they did not do what I asked.

That is you. Others will answer differently.

I very much doubt his actual opinion would change, he simply would not voice it in Kavar's because they are touchy about his word choice there.

Okay.

But believing something doesn't make it true. I can believe that Monica Bellucci fantasizes about me, but that doesn't mean that it happens.

 

<snip>

 

Therefore, as I've stated repeatedly, having a belief/faith about something doesn't tell me anything about how real or true it is.

I guess that you could say that about you believeing that Jesus isn't real.

 

 

 

I'll take your word for it, but you'll still need to show me how this isn't the case.

I think that we might not be on the same page. What do you mean by "is your selection arbitrary"?

 

This example is not even close to what we're discussing. The bible says that jesus is among us. Introducing the "other end of a phone" scenario is disingenuous.

Okay...

Sir, "faith" is an argument for jesus just as much as it is an argument for islam, paganism, or any other diametrically opposed belief system that you wish to think up. Arguing that faith is an intellectually rigorous reason for accepting christianity is arguing that it is also an intellectually rigorous reason for believing in invisible pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster. Do you accept them as being real as well?

They could be. I (probably you too) don't think that they are real, though.

 

If not, then by the very same logic you must accept that faith is not a good reason for believing in jesus or god either.

 

Well Achilles, Christianity, as well as all of those other religions, is a fairly faith based religion. I don't quite know if you understand this.

Why not?

Well, I know for myself that they would be a false idol.

 

It's wouldn't, however there are certain words that I'm not allowed to use there. "Irrational" is one of them. "Delusion" is another.

Okay. Thank you for informing me.

And I would welcome them to discuss that with me any time they would like.

Some of us are already doing that.

Okay then, if you follow the steps in the video, why does he not appear?

I am sure that you would view it as another "excuse" that this man has made.

 

 

 

That's because it was

Again, I have stated my thoughts on that.

 

 

 

I think that I will have to leave this discussion pretty soon. It seems to most that my views are irrational and irrelevent, so I don't really see the need to continue discussing this.

 

Thank you for the discussion though. I happen to enjoy them.