Ground Zero Mosque

[jrrtoken]

Reason that the mosque shouldn't be built there that has nothing to do with Islam specifically. The Imam Ruaf(I think that's his name) SPECIFICALLY pointed out that the US made Osama what he is(this is true, but there was no reason to make a point of it). He also blamed our foreign policy etc. for the attacks. Labeling the US as an accessory to the attacks, when America was still grieving, plants a bad taste in people's mouth. (see a reason that has nothing to do with race/religion/lack of knowledge)

Well, he isn't too inaccurate about that. Feel free to see an overview of Western and American foreign policy in Muslim-majority nations during the 20th century; hint: it isn't a very egalitarian one.

 

The partitioning of the Ottoman Empire by a Western-supported/organized coup (See Lawrence of Arabia); the CIA-funded and organized overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian government, then replaced by an autocratic monarchy; US-funded Afghani guerrillas to spite a Soviet incursion, during the aftermath of which the US seemingly ignored the humanitarian crisis in the region (facilitating the rise of the Taliban, as well as the organization of al-Qaeda). Dot 1 to Dot 2...

[Tommycat]

@mimartin: Actually I say he's mostly right, and even has a point, but the timing of his statements are what I was talking about. It was a bit insensitive. Not exactly the kind of person who you'd want building bridges.

 

@PastramiX: I'm very familiar with US activity during the Soviet incursions into Afghanistan. I'm also quite familiar with several activities that were not so nice, but better kept secrets. Yes, the US is no angel. Duh. We're also much worse at keeping secrets than other countries.

[Darth Avlectus]

So then, the issue is not the making of a prayer room in a community center but rather the man of that prayer room; of Rauf's claiming that Hamas was wrong, but not condemning it.

 

One thing both sides, here, seem to agree upon (albeit slanted depending on persuasion) is that it is distasteful or "tacky" to have religious sentiments near a national park. Distaste/tacky/etc. is not illegal unless it is libelous or slanderous.

EDIT: in case it is not clear, religion is at the center of this, religion and a lack of clarity. //

 

I see what Imam Rauf is onto, his sentiments are strained because he wants to say more but cannot without making an enemy at large of either the U.S. or Moslems. Fine. Just understand that such moderation does not lend itself to reassurance to anyone about his solidarity. He has made his position a big question mark and clouded the transparency he hopes to convey.

 

For this I can hardly blame a wary New York as a whole (and by extension the more wary America) for keeping a suspicious eye on him. If it's any consolation, Islam overseas is also probably eying him much the same. Not everyone wary of him is necessarily opposed to the prayer room/mosque/whatever, though they might see it as a slap in the face to NY.

 

The only solution is wait and see. Only time will tell what kind of man he truly is. Since Rauf has not definitively gained the trust of America as a whole, I see no reason not to be wary in the meantime. Any other nation would be.

 

Wary=/=paranoiac fear-mongering.

[mimartin]

Saying everyone is a racist that is against the Civic Center is disingenuous at best. However saying religion does not have something to do with the opposition is just as disingenuous.

 

Just watch the video in post number 1 that PastramiX linked, it does not say Al-Qaeda attacked us. It says “On September 11 they declared war against us. And to celebrate that murder of 3000 Americans, they want to build a monstrous thirteen story Mosque at ground Zero..”

 

My question is who are “they”?

 

I also like to point out not all of those killed in the Twin Towers were Americans and even a big shocker to the racist that made the video some were Americans who also happened to Muslims. Including a Jedi.

[urluckyday]

I'm beginning to wonder why I keep coming back to this thread to argue with racist idiots. Maybe I would "understand the issue" better if anyone against the centre was capable of constructing an argument that didn't involve the fact that the man who wants to build it happens to be Muslim. That's racism and bigotry, plain and simple, and no self-respecting member of western culture should stand for it, if you ask me.

 

Just a question. Do you think that it's racist or bigotry when a Jewish person condemns the Muslim religion for its followers having built a temple right on the same exact location of the Temple Mount (essentially their holy land)?

[Sabretooth]

Just watch the video in post number 1 that PastramiX linked, it does not say Al-Qaeda attacked us. It says “On September 11 they declared war against us. And to celebrate that murder of 3000 Americans, they want to build a monstrous thirteen story Mosque at ground Zero..”

 

My question is who are “they”?

 

They're taking advantage of easy logic, obviously. "THEY" equals "Muslims".

[Tommycat]

Saying everyone is a racist that is against the Civic Center is disingenuous at best. However saying religion does not have something to do with the opposition is just as disingenuous.

 

Just watch the video in post number 1 that PastramiX linked, it does not say Al-Qaeda attacked us. It says “On September 11 they declared war against us. And to celebrate that murder of 3000 Americans, they want to build a monstrous thirteen story Mosque at ground Zero..”

 

My question is who are “they”?

 

I also like to point out not all of those killed in the Twin Towers were Americans and even a big shocker to the racist that made the video some were Americans who also happened to Muslims. Including a Jedi.

First, I'm not sure if you are including me in this, but I have said NUMEROUS times that of course there are racists that oppose the "mosque" and that many do have a problem with it being specifically a mosque. In fact my argument specifically for allowing it has just as much to do with the religious aspect, as disallowing it based on it being "Islamic" would be a violation of the First Amendment.

 

I say it again:

Are there racist bigots who oppose the mosque? Absolutely!

Is it the majority? I dunno. I'd hate to think that a majority of the majority are racist bigots.

Do I oppose the building of the "mosque?" Nope. He owns it. He can build whatever he wants there.

 

Bottom line though is that many people will be offended by it being built there. If it was me and I was trying to build better relations with the locals, I would certainly have looked into building it elsewhere. But it isn't my decision.

[mimartin]

They're taking advantage of easy logic, obviously. "THEY" equals "Muslims".

But that logic is racist? By that same logic… Never mind don’t want to go into Godwin’s law.

 

First, I'm not sure if you are including me in this,

Not really. Was more pointing my remarks toward anyone that believes all those supporting the Civic Center are doing is pulling out the race card. So of course they pull out the equally overused “no fair pulling the race card” card.

 

I believe me and you are pretty close on this issue. We both see it as legal. You see it as tacky, but since my definition of Ground Zero does not include where the Civic Center is being built, so I have no problem with it.

[purifier]

Not really. Was more pointing my remarks toward anyone that believes all those supporting the Civic Center are doing is pulling out the race card. So of course they pull out the equally overused “no fair pulling the race card” card.

 

 

Kinda making a prejudgemental assumption there aren't we Mimartin? I didn't get that type of mentality from anybody in this thread. All I saw was one individual mentioning the use of the race card to one person in particular. Which specifically, pretty much fit the bill.

 

 

The only good that I can see, when this mosque is to be built, is that somebody's gonna make some money from building it. But apart from that, when it is built, there is bound to be more trouble for the rest of us than what it's worth.

 

To clarify: Somebody may try and bring it down afterwards, somebody may try and deface the thing with somekind of hate graffiti, which mainly is just going to cause more turmoil in this country than there already is between the two sides on the issue.

 

Hate begots more hate, and it all becomes one big vicious circle.

[mimartin]

Not really. Left it pretty clear I was only talking to "anyone that believes." I believe that is pretty clear I was not making any assumption whatsoever. If you don't believe or if no one believes that, then it was directed at no one.

[urluckyday]

How bout this? We're ALL wrong. No worries, all is well again.

[Sabretooth]

Impossible! I am right! Do you have any sources for your claim that we're all wrong? *mumble muble about your socio-political background* And just because all is well does not necessarily entail that we have no worries, *pseudo-dialectical reasoning*, clearly since you say your location is "Beautiful USA" you are biased as to your preference in beauty, *reference to Jimmy Carter*, clearly American foreign policy has shown us that *blah blah blah*, and Nietzsche once said *better to reign in abyss than serve in hell*, by which you are questioning the rights of homosexuals as human beings, *chart of Greek economy post-joining-EU*, because rightness is really subjective except when I'm contemplating it, *snide remark at OP*, your capitalisation of ALL did not go unnoticed, *refutal of previous statement as being made in a half-woken-up/drunk/both state, *Obama is a black Russian*, and besides, the post has no connection with the original thread, *Muslims are all good except the ones that are bad* and you misspelled 'about' which is ironic because *Monty Python YouTube embed*, as this site translated from Vietnamese will tell you *Accusation that "Pole-are bear" is racist*, *blah blah blah*

 

ERGO, I AM RIGHT.

[Tommycat]

Impossible! I am right! Do you have any sources for your claim that we're all wrong? *mumble muble about your socio-political background* And just because all is well does not necessarily entail that we have no worries, *pseudo-dialectical reasoning*, clearly since you say your location is "Beautiful USA" you are biased as to your preference in beauty, *reference to Jimmy Carter*, clearly American foreign policy has shown us that *blah blah blah*, and Nietzsche once said *better to reign in abyss than serve in hell*, by which you are questioning the rights of homosexuals as human beings, *chart of Greek economy post-joining-EU*, because rightness is really subjective except when I'm contemplating it, *snide remark at OP*, your capitalisation of ALL did not go unnoticed, *refutal of previous statement as being made in a half-woken-up/drunk/both state, *Obama is a black Russian*, and besides, the post has no connection with the original thread, *Muslims are all good except the ones that are bad* and you misspelled 'about' which is ironic because *Monty Python YouTube embed*, as this site translated from Vietnamese will tell you *Accusation that "Pole-are bear" is racist*, *blah blah blah*

 

ERGO, I AM RIGHT.

 

My brain hurts now.

[Totenkopf]

Impossible! I am right! Do you have any sources for your claim that we're all wrong? *mumble muble about your socio-political background* And just because all is well does not necessarily entail that we have no worries, *pseudo-dialectical reasoning*, clearly since you say your location is "Beautiful USA" you are biased as to your preference in beauty, *reference to Jimmy Carter*, clearly American foreign policy has shown us that *blah blah blah*, and Nietzsche once said *better to reign in abyss than serve in hell*, by which you are questioning the rights of homosexuals as human beings, *chart of Greek economy post-joining-EU*, because rightness is really subjective except when I'm contemplating it, *snide remark at OP*, your capitalisation of ALL did not go unnoticed, *refutal of previous statement as being made in a half-woken-up/drunk/both state, *Obama is a black Russian*, and besides, the post has no connection with the original thread, *Muslims are all good except the ones that are bad* and you misspelled 'about' which is ironic because *Monty Python YouTube embed*, as this site translated from Vietnamese will tell you *Accusation that "Pole-are bear" is racist*, *blah blah blah*

 

ERGO, I AM RIGHT.

 

 

Yeah, that really clears things up. And now for something completely different.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW3ti9mLnDg

[mimartin]

I'll take Ground Zero Mosque for $400, Alex.

 

Back on Topic please.

 

 

How bout this? We're ALL wrong.

 

That is a funny thing about opinions. Especially opinions derived without a clear understanding of the people involved. There is no way to know the real motivations behind either side. So there is no way that anyone’s conclusion can be fact. Guess that is why we call them opinions.

[Tommycat]

I'll take Ground Zero Mosque for $400, Alex.

 

Back on Topic please.

You didn't phrase it in the form of a question.

What is, the topic this thread is based on and should return to.

 

At any rate, I think you and I are on the same page as to the "mosque" being built. As for the radius of acceptable distance from "Ground Zero" I think it's rather arbitrary to begin with. Some might not include where WTC7 was as it fell significantly after the attacks. Some might include all of lower Manhattan. It really doesn't matter how far out from where it was SOMEBODY is gonna be upset. BUT if you are trying to foster goodwill, it's a good idea to take the majority's view into account when deciding where to build. Also not taking the funds designated for rebuilding after 9/11 would go a long way towards that goal.

 

At any rate. It's their property. They could build "New Mecca" there and it would still be legal(providing permits are in place blah blah).

[Totenkopf]

http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-judge-tosses-islamic-center-suit,0,115465.story

[mimartin]

http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-judge-tosses-islamic-center-suit,0,115465.story

 

It good to see someone is still listening to Michael Savage.

 

 

 

Article had nothing really to do with the Mosque and everything to do with how sue happy America has become. Makes about as much sense as me suing George Lucas because he isn't doing what I want with his property. How the hell did this even get before a Justice of the New York Supreme Court?

[Totenkopf]

Probably the way most "frivolous" suits do......it was filed. Only posted it b/c it was related to topic. How many suits, btw, were filed to stop the proposed mosque/center?

 

It good to see someone is still listening to Michael Savage.

You mean besides yourself....

[mimartin]

Guess what, The Community Center located two blocks from Ground Zero opened last week and the world did not come to an end. I didn't even hear about this on FalseNews.