After playing KOTOR how did TSL make you feel?

[Primogen]

My problem with TSL is that it's a Star Wars game that's ashamed to be a Star Wars game. It doesn't try for a feel of adventure or wonder, it couldn't be more bleak if it were written by Frank Miller - on a good day or a bad day for Frank. TSL might have made a fantastic Dragon Age or Fallout stories because those are -bleak- settings. Having a pitch-black, bleak Star Wars story is like having a bleak My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic story.

[MDX]

Yea I felt that KOTOR 1 had a much better vibe and didn't make me want to cut my wrists or wear black eyeliner nearly as much.

In spite of anybody's attitude, there are no games, movies or books somebody should suicide of. I wonder, why people of today are so soft.

 

And anyways, vein-cutting is not a method. It is for those who wanna make a loud show, and then call 911 and wail: "O-oooh, blast it, o-oooh, damn it, I was cooking a dinner and decided to slice a ham with a chainsaw! (Yeah-yeah, suburban lumberjack, curse it.) Save me, ple-eeease! I'm too young to die!" Never could get it. If I would like to hand to my account - I would take old good Redhawk and adorn the wall with brain.

Having a pitch-black, bleak Star Wars story is like having a bleak My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic story.

Hm, have you ever read Jeter's trilogy or Hambly's Planet of Twilight, partner?

[Primogen]

Haven't read Planet of Twilight. HAVE read the Bounty Hunter Trilogy, and it was so unbelievably stupid I honestly contemplated going into business as a crappy fiction writer because I couldn't come up with stuff as stupid as this guy. KUAT OF KUAT? IS EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE GUY'S HOUSE NAMED KUAT? WHO NAMES A PERSON AFTER A PLANET? WHERE ARE THE CORUSCANT JONESES!?

 

*Cough*

 

Anyway, other brands of grim 'n' gritty Star Wars tend to be kinda crap, especially if they go for the same feel. I give Republic Commando a pass as it managed to actually be a good first person shooter, plus aside from the grit and blood, the game actually had a sense of fun.

[MDX]

Haven't read Planet of Twilight.

Thus I advise you to do it.

HAVE read the Bounty Hunter Trilogy, and it was so unbelievably stupid I honestly contemplated going into business as a crappy fiction writer because I couldn't come up with stuff as stupid as this guy. KUAT OF KUAT? IS EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE GUY'S HOUSE NAMED KUAT?

No, his aunt's name was Onara Kuat.

WHO NAMES A PERSON AFTER A PLANET? WHERE ARE THE CORUSCANT JONESES!?

And don't you think that the PLANET was named after the most powerful long-ruling family of it? We've got such cases in real world - for example, according to Titus Livius, Rome was named after its first king Romulus. So what's the problem? Fictional Kuati society even has got some traits similar to Roman one's (if you don't believe me, I may specify).

 

No hard feelings, but the behavior of some SW fans concerning KotOR II reminds me real-world Middle East protests against anything and anybody they consider unhalal or infidel respectively. I wonder why can't you accept that it is just an evolution of genre? Returning to my first post in this topic, who could imagine in the XIX century, that the Realism can be the magical one? An now we've got One Hundreed Years of Solitude novel of Gabriel García Márquez, having received the Nobel Prize in 1982. Nothing stays without changes in the Universe, except the infinity and eternity of the latter.

[Primogen]

The Kuat of Kuat thing was just a thing, but seriously, it wasn't just his surname, it was his -NAME- name. That wasn't really what annoyed me the most about the book, but the whole thing was just this endless series of fapping to Fett. He's really not that interesting of a character, especially when the person stated to be Fett's greatest rival is Bossk, who is a COMPLETE MORON. Seriously, that's lazy writing right there, making your hero look like a badass by making his nearest competitor a total idiot. A GUY DRILLS A HOLE THROUGH THE WALL TO USE IT AS A LISTENING DEVICE. IN A WORD, WHAT.

 

*Sigh*

 

That's a gross overstatement of the facts. But good job doing your best to demonize the people who disagree with you. Grim and dark is an improvement, only a shift, and Star Wars isn't a genre, it's a setting.

 

But my problems with KotoR II are not only that it's bleak. My other problems are that it's a mediocre plot with stupid characters. Not a single original character in KotoR II is the slightest bit likeable. Sure, they might be interesting, but Charles Manson was a very -interesting- person, I still have no desire to associate with him.

 

And the design on the villains was so damn -lazy-. Okay, Malak was admittedly not that awesome of a villain, but at least he wasn't 'Lord Pain', 'Guy Who Eats Everything' and 'Your Totally Not Evil Mentor Who Is Actually Evil'.

 

But the thing that always annoys me most about TSL.

 

THEY NEVER STOP FAPPING TO REVAN.

[MDX]

The Kuat of Kuat thing was just a thing, but seriously, it wasn't just his surname, it was his -NAME- name.

Romulus was also a name. But even if we speak about modern age, is it impossible to meet some Jackie Jackson in the US, Ivan Ivanov in Russia, Álvaro Alvares in México etc.? It happens quite often. Some people of such surnames like to call their children so (though personally I don't think it's too good). But nothing rare, I repeat.

That wasn't really what annoyed me the most about the book, but the whole thing was just this endless series of fapping to Fett. He's really not that interesting of a character, especially when the person stated to be Fett's greatest rival is Bossk, who is a COMPLETE MORON. Seriously, that's lazy writing right there, making your hero look like a badass by making his nearest competitor a total idiot. A GUY DRILLS A HOLE THROUGH THE WALL TO USE IT AS A LISTENING DEVICE. IN A WORD, WHAT.

I would not consider the storyline concerning Fett's rivalry with Bossk a principal one. If it was so, the story would be a standard second-rate criminal story popular in the late 80s and 90s transferred into a sci-fi world. While the book is written in the style of political detective. The main storyline concerns incessant intrigues in Imperial policy, involving and devouring more and more people each time, and how to survive, if the one is already involved. It is incomparably more interesting, if looking from this point of view.

That's a gross overstatement of the facts. But good job doing your best to demonize the people who disagree with you.

Where have I demonized anybody? I just expressed my regret for unfair criticizing a good game.

Grim and dark is an improvement, only a shift, and Star Wars isn't a genre, it's a setting.

Star Wars - yes, but Star Wars sci-fi is a genre, or, more exactly, a subgenre of science fiction in general (again, if you need - I can explain why).

But my problems with KotoR II are not only that it's bleak. My other problems are that it's a mediocre plot with stupid characters. Not a single original character in KotoR II is the slightest bit likeable. Sure, they might be interesting, but Charles Manson was a very -interesting- person, I still have no desire to associate with him.

Well, if it's so - indicate, where their mediocrity and stupidity manifest themselves. It's one of the easiest things in the world to call something mediocre and stupid without specification.

And the design on the villains was so damn -lazy-. Okay, Malak was admittedly not that awesome of a villain, but at least he wasn't 'Lord Pain', 'Guy Who Eats Everything'

And again, you're not explaining, why he is better than them, only expressing your personal attitide, while we are trying to substantiate our opinions. Or am I mistaking?

and 'Your Totally Not Evil Mentor Who Is Actually Evil'.

Well, if you prefer it - your choice, but I don't like railroad-straight stories. Besides, it is incorrect to apply to Kreia terms like "good" or "evil". She's absolutely hermetic, unwilling to say even something about her motivations. That's why she cannot be called good. But she's not evil as well. If you don't agree - show me at least one evil act she commits.

But the thing that always annoys me most about TSL.

 

THEY NEVER STOP FAPPING TO REVAN.

Who and in which way?

[TKA-001]

and 'Your Totally Not Evil Mentor Who Is Actually Evil'.

I really don't think that Kreia being evil/previously a Sith was meant to be a surprise at all, any more than Canderous, Hanharr, or the other dark-sided party members. It irks me that people keep saying there was no big twist in TSL or that Kreia being evil was actually a "false twist", when the actual twist is played rather straight and very much telegraphed to the player when it comes up.

 

Well, if you prefer it - your choice, but I don't like railroad-straight stories. Besides, it is incorrect to apply to Kreia terms like "good" or "evil". She's absolutely hermetic, unwilling to say even something about her motivations. That's why she cannot be called good. But she's not evil as well. If you don't agree - show me at least one evil act she commits.

(Emphasis mine) I've got a few.

 

1. Advocates manipulating others for personal gain.

2. Only dissuades Dark!Exile from murdering innocents because it's impulsive and blunt, not because she cares about the innocents.

3. Complains about Light!Exile helping the weak for supposedly weakening them further.

4. Kills the Jedi Masters for revenge (say what you want about whether you like them or not, but she didn't even try to reason with them).

5. Mind-rapes Atton and blackmails him into sticking with the crew.

6. Extends Hanharr's suffering so he can be sent to be killed by Mira.

 

And where does this "says nothing about her motivations" idea come from? She spends a crapton of time on Dantooine and Malachor waxing poetic about why she wants her revenge. And if the above list of evil stuff doesn't cut it for whatever reason, her ultimate goal of killing the Force should - she's willing to risk killing at least a sizable chunk of the galaxy's population. And in the end, Kreia's only real reason for wanting to do so is just that she's butthurt over being spurned by the people on its two sides.

 

Who and in which way?

Just about everyone in the game who talks about Revan talks about what a genius he was, but you really need to look no further than Kreia, who makes a number of arguments meant to justify his defiance of the Jedi Council, his turn to the dark side, and his war against the Republic. She argues a lot that Revan "never fell" and did everything he did to save the galaxy from the Sith in the Unknown Regions, but it's pretty obviously a channel of her own self-righteous pride - Revan was her star pupil, and she can't handle the thought of him (and herself by extension) being a failure.

[MDX]

(Emphasis mine) I've got a few.

 

1. Advocates manipulating others for personal gain.

Could you specify? Saving your life may also be called a personal gain.

2. Only dissuades Dark!Exile from murdering innocents because it's impulsive and blunt, not because she cares about the innocents.

And don't you think that she said so merely because she understood that it is usless trying to suggest the principles of morality to a complete rascal, and decided to save the lives of those people at least such way.

3. Complains about Light!Exile helping the weak for supposedly weakening them further.

Isn't she right? If you wanna help somebody - teach him to solve the problems, don't solve them yourself.

4. Kills the Jedi Masters for revenge (say what you want about whether you like them or not, but she didn't even try to reason with them).

They tried to crush the soul of the Exile who was like son / daughter to her. Maybe you will reason with those who will try to do so with your child, but I will speak to such people only using my revolver.

5. Mind-rapes Atton and blackmails him into sticking with the crew.

... knowing that he is former assassin.

6. Extends Hanharr's suffering so he can be sent to be killed by Mira.

Didn't he deserve it?

And where does this "says nothing about her motivations" idea come from? She spends a crapton of time on Dantooine and Malachor waxing poetic about why she wants her revenge.

Explain me, why the revenge is a bad thing.

And if the above list of evil stuff doesn't cut it for whatever reason, her ultimate goal of killing the Force should - she's willing to risk killing at least a sizable chunk of the galaxy's population. And in the end, Kreia's only real reason for wanting to do so is just that she's butthurt over being spurned by the people on its two sides.

Killing the Force to save the Exile. But, anyways, the energy cannot be killed, you know. There is no way of exterminating it.

Just about everyone in the game who talks about Revan talks about what a genius he was, but you really need to look no further than Kreia, who makes a number of arguments meant to justify his defiance of the Jedi Council, his turn to the dark side, and his war against the Republic.

Defiance of the Jedi Council! What an heinous crime! Defiance of those, who provoked the fall of the Republic. And not once, I remind. Defiance of sheer hypocrites. As for me, it is an act of honor to betray them.

She argues a lot that Revan "never fell" and did everything he did to save the galaxy from the Sith in the Unknown Regions, but it's pretty obviously a channel of her own self-righteous pride - Revan was her star pupil, and she can't handle the thought of him (and herself by extension) being a failure.

Is it strange that a teacher is proud of her pupil?

[TKA-001]

Could you specify? Saving your life may also be called a personal gain.

Oh, geeze. Talk to her on the Ebon Hawk - if you tell her your party members are friends and not tools, she says you've learned nothing. Honestly, though, this is such a fundamental part of Kreia's personality that I find it nitpicky of you to ask for specifics.

 

And don't you think that she said so merely because she understood that it is usless trying to suggest the principles of morality to a complete rascal, and decided to save the lives of those people at least such way.

Well, no, I think that if Kreia actually did care about the poor sods who get in DS!Exile's way, she would say so. She tries to hammer all of her actual teachings and principles into you at every turn.

 

Isn't she right? If you wanna help somebody - teach him to solve the problems, don't solve them yourself.

No, she isn't. If Jedi followed her philosophy, a lot more people would be dead and non-Jedi who actually know stuff about them (unlike the common citizens of the galaxy) would have a lot more reason to despise them.

 

They tried to crush the soul of the Exile who was like son / daughter to her. Maybe you will reason with those who will try to do so with your child, but I will speak to such people only using my revolver.

That statement portrays Kreia as impulsive to a nearly childish degree, and doesn't really address the point anyway. (Don't know how Sever Force translates to soul crushing, either)

 

... knowing that he is former assassin.

What you're saying is that because Atton used to be a really bad guy, what Kreia did to him was justified, then.

 

Didn't he deserve it?

No. The crazy wookiee didn't even want to live anymore, and she did nothing with him except send him to get killed by Mira.

 

Explain me, why the revenge is a bad thing.

Selfish, for one thing, and for another she doesn't care who gets in the way.

 

Killing the Force to save the Exile. But, anyways, the energy cannot be killed, you know. There is no way of exterminating it.

That Kreia's plan would not have worked (if that is the case) does not lighten the fact that she was willing to kill such a ridiculous number of people - and for what? So she can prove herself right in a pissing match with the Council.

 

Defiance of the Jedi Council! What an heinous crime! Defiance of those, who provoked the fall of the Republic. And not once, I remind. Defiance of sheer hypocrites. As for me, it is an act of honor to betray them.

I don't want this to turn into a malignant tumor of a debate (seeing as we're primarily talking about Kreia at this point), but this is far from the first time I've heard someone bull**** about how the Council was more responsible for the Republic's near-destruction than Revan (who could have told them about the True Sith instead of declaring war on the Republic). Said argument has not grown any more compelling with age. Besides, the real meat of the problem is the whole Sith thing. If Revan had won the Mandalorian Wars without that particular side-effect, then I would be willing to agree with his justification.

 

Is it strange that a teacher is proud of her pupil?

To the degree that she literally believes that said pupil can do no wrong whatsover and bases her entire life around trying to prove that belief? **** yeah.

[MDX]

Oh, geeze. Talk to her on the Ebon Hawk - if you tell her your party members are friends and not tools, she says you've learned nothing. Honestly, though, this is such a fundamental part of Kreia's personality that I find it nitpicky of you to ask for specifics.

Yeah, nitpicker - is my middle name. But, if seriously, I doubt, whether anybody, after living such life she did, would be disposed to believe in disinterested friendship. Things looking like some evil conduct may often be a precaution.

Well, no, I think that if Kreia actually did care about the poor sods who get in DS!Exile's way, she would say so. She tries to hammer all of her actual teachings and principles into you at every turn.

Well, explain, why your interpretation of her dids is more probable than mine?

No, she isn't. If Jedi followed her philosophy, a lot more people would be dead and non-Jedi who actually know stuff about them (unlike the common citizens of the galaxy) would have a lot more reason to despise them.

Well, vagabonds also despise prosperous people. Should anybody care?

That statement portrays Kreia as impulsive to a nearly childish degree, and doesn't really address the point anyway.

Unfounded assertion. Impulsivity - is a word used by cowards to call normal and sane determination and courage.

Don't know how Sever Force translates to soul crushing, either

Learn, what Lucas based the concept of the Force on, and you'll get to know.

What you're saying is that because Atton used to be a really bad guy, what Kreia did to him was justified, then.

How could she know that he wasn't bad?

No. The crazy wookiee didn't even want to live anymore, and she did nothing with him except send him to get killed by Mira.

Well, he didn't want to live. Kreia sent him to die. Dreams come true. What's the problem?

Selfish, for one thing, and for another she doesn't care who gets in the way.

Oh, "everything for others, nothing for yourself". Are you socialist?

 

And could you name some really good guy she sacrificed during her revenge?

That Kreia's plan would not have worked (if that is the case) does not lighten the fact that she was willing to kill such a ridiculous number of people - and for what? So she can prove herself right in a pissing match with the Council.

One more time, she did it to save the Exile.

I don't want this to turn into a malignant tumor of a debate (seeing as we're primarily talking about Kreia at this point), but this is far from the first time I've heard someone bull**** about how the Council was more responsible for the Republic's near-destruction than Revan (who could have told them about the True Sith instead of declaring war on the Republic). Said argument has not grown any more compelling with age. Besides, the real meat of the problem is the whole Sith thing. If Revan had won the Mandalorian Wars without that particular side-effect, then I would be willing to agree with his justification.

The Republic became immensely weak because of Jedis' pacifism and irresoluteness. So Revan decided to change the form of government to save it from the True Sith.

To the degree that she literally believes that said pupil can do no wrong whatsover and bases her entire life around trying to prove that belief? **** yeah.

And she succeeds in proving it.

[Primogen]

No, she doesn't. She doesn't prove anything about Revan, she just talks, and talks, and talks.

 

Also, you want proof she's evil? She wants to kill The Force. Yeah. There we go. That basically makes her Star Wars Sephiroth.

[MDX]

No, she doesn't. She doesn't prove anything about Revan, she just talks, and talks, and talks.

Yeah, she talks. And Revan proves her words by his actions.

Also, you want proof she's evil? She wants to kill The Force. Yeah. There we go. That basically makes her Star Wars Sephiroth.

Here we go again. Explain me the way an energy can be killed, destroyed, slaughtered, elliminated, immolated - any word you like.

[TKA-001]

Yeah, nitpicker - is my middle name. But, if seriously, I doubt, whether anybody, after living such life she did, would be disposed to believe in disinterested friendship. Things looking like some evil conduct may often be a precaution.

It's not about precautions. Her words, actions, and doctrine deliberately tell you to not give a **** about others.

 

Regarding the "nitpicking" comment: Allow me to retract that; I find rather that it betrays an astonishingly poor understanding of Kreia's character on your part.

 

Well, explain, why your interpretation of her dids is more probable than mine?

How about because "my interpretation" relies on conclusions drawn from examples of what actually happens in the game, rather than blanket statements that I pull from nowhere?

 

Well, vagabonds also despise prosperous people. Should anybody care?

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

 

Unfounded assertion. Impulsivity - is a word used by cowards to call normal and sane determination and courage.

Yeah? Well, only simpletons keep their holsters filled with revolvers instead of reason.

 

Your statement implied that Kreia's killing of the Jedi Masters was a reflexive, defensive action taken to protect a person she cared about - which is nonsense, because she only cares about the Exile to the degree to which she can be used as a tool. She doesn't care about what the Exile wants in life, what she feels, or what she believes.

 

Learn, what Lucas based the concept of the Force on, and you'll get to know.

Don't bother actually explaining to me what the problem is, just tell me to figure it out myself.

 

How could she know that he wasn't bad?

Irrelevant to the point, which is that you are implying that you condone the act of Kreia screwing with Atton's head on the basis of the things Atton used to do.

 

Also, "how could she know?" Her ****ing mind-reading powers might have a hand in that. Just a thought.

 

Well, he didn't want to live. Kreia sent him to die. Dreams come true. What's the problem?

The problem is, again, that Kreia prolonged his suffering for no particular reason. If she was going to preserve his life, then she ought to have done something other than waste it.

 

Oh, "everything for others, nothing for yourself". Are you socialist?

What?

 

And could you name some really good guy she sacrificed during her revenge?

How about Tobin (though the Exile can save him later)? The guy may have been on Valku's side, but in the end he was just a patriot who wanted to protect the independence of his planet, and we don't know of anything particularly evil he did other than fight on Onderon. She sent him to Nihilus to slowly die from Force drainage on his ship. Even supposing he deserved death, did he deserve a death like that?

 

If he doesn't count, how about the Jedi Masters? I wouldn't be surprised if you (like many others) consider Vrook to be a bigger monster than Malak, but what about Kavar and Zez? Did they deserve death as well?

 

If they don't count, there were definitely plenty of civilians at Telos who were killed because Kreia drew Nihilus to the system.

 

Even if none of those count, what you are implying is that because the people Kreia used were evil, it was okay. The problem with that is that she was doing it because she wanted revenge, not because she cared about the well-being of others.

 

One more time, she did it to save the Exile.

And why does that justify it? Why is it admirable for Kreia to be willing to (by her own words) kill the galaxy for one woman whom she wants to use to carry out her plans?

 

The Republic became immensely weak because of Jedis' pacifism and irresoluteness.

I'd like a source for that. By all indications, the Mandalorian Wars were going bad for them simply because their sizable military was not well-commanded, nothing to do with the Jedi (who, by the way, were not in the best shape in the aftermath of the Great Sith War).

 

You may disregard that assertion of mine, however. I would be content if you were to explain how the Republic being weakened by the Jedi justifies Revan's act of declaring war on it.

 

So Revan decided to change the form of government to save it from the True Sith.

So you're saying that there was no way to fix/change the form of the Republic's government that, say, would've resulted in a quadrillion or so fewer deaths than the method Revan ended up going with? Also, destroying and taking the assets of the Republic constitutes something completely different from mere change and reform. Even freaking Palpatine's rise to power was legal, as far as anyone knew.

 

The Republic's alleged ineffectiveness does not justify the deaths Revan caused (numerous civilians and Republic forces deliberately allowed to die in order to corrupt his Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars, the use of a superweapon to destroy all life on Malachor V, the deaths of numerous Republic civilians and military personnel in the Jedi Civil War, and the destruction of Republic planets by Malak which at the very least were tolerated by Revan).

 

If Revan's aims were half as noble as Kreia says, then he would have brought proof of the True Sith's existence to the Jedi Order and the Republic, and then helped them to strengthen it properly, rather than forming his own Sith Empire and trying to destroy the Republic with it. What is so damn admirable about what he planned to do? It was nothing except trading one Sith domination of the galaxy for another. We see how great it is to live under the Sith Empire in KotOR I.

 

And she succeeds in proving it.

The hell she does. If there is any person or thing in the entire series that we have any reason to suspect that Kreia lies about or misrepresents, it's Revan.

 

Yeah, she talks. And Revan proves her words by his actions.

Revan doesn't prove **** in TSL, most importantly because he isn't in the bloody game. More to the point, it's pretty obvious that Kreia is infatuated with her greatest student, and she has every reason to lie about him - if she admits that what Revan did was wrong, then she also admits that she was a failure in teaching him, and she is unable to accept that.

 

Don't tell me that Kreia doesn't have a borderline-insane bias in favor of Revan - there is not a single solitary negative thing anywhere in TSL that she says about Revan. All she does is gush and gush and gush like so many fanboys and fangirls.

 

Here we go again. Explain me the way an energy can be killed, destroyed, slaughtered, elliminated, immolated - any word you like.

Play and pay attention to the ****ing game. Kreia's plan is to sustain the Force Wound at Malachor V that was formed when the planet got ****ed up, and it's stated elsewhere in the game that if that wound persists indefinitely, then everyone touched by the Force (i.e, everyone alive) will either be deafened to it or killed.

[Primogen]

The Force is a living entity, not just an energy field. It can be wounded, it has a Will. Don't confuse Obi-Wan's off the cuff description of it with an explanation of every detail.

[Isaac Clarke]

I think that the people who most hated TSL and whined about it having "no story at all" and it being "boring with no purpose" or something along those lines have never really paid attention to the story at all. Or maybe they just skipped every line. Or maybe they are hard critics. I admit, at first, it did seem like that to me. But then I recently played through it again, paying more attention to detail and story, and I found it to have a better storyline than I originally thought. There is a couple plotholes, but I had the TSLRCM mod installed to patch those up. Overall, it has a... Different story then K1. Darker, as I said before.

[Revanchism]

I actually really like TSL, in fact I like it better than KOTOR I. With the TSLRCM the story is a lot clearer and makes much more sense. There just something about the darker theme that makes it more interesting in my opinion.

[eyehatejedi]

it made me feel like like Kriea was just manipulative pain in the butt, who wanted everything done her way, if not, it's the highway

[eyehatejedi]

but there is an upside to KOTOR II, you don't cap off at level 20, i got to like lvl 45

[CM Punk]

It's not about precautions. Her words, actions, and doctrine deliberately tell you to not give a **** about others.

 

Regarding the "nitpicking" comment: Allow me to retract that; I find rather that it betrays an astonishingly poor understanding of Kreia's character on your part.

 

 

How about because "my interpretation" relies on conclusions drawn from examples of what actually happens in the game, rather than blanket statements that I pull from nowhere?

 

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

 

 

Yeah? Well, only simpletons keep their holsters filled with revolvers instead of reason.

 

Your statement implied that Kreia's killing of the Jedi Masters was a reflexive, defensive action taken to protect a person she cared about - which is nonsense, because she only cares about the Exile to the degree to which she can be used as a tool. She doesn't care about what the Exile wants in life, what she feels, or what she believes.

 

 

Don't bother actually explaining to me what the problem is, just tell me to figure it out myself.

 

 

Irrelevant to the point, which is that you are implying that you condone the act of Kreia screwing with Atton's head on the basis of the things Atton used to do.

 

Also, "how could she know?" Her ****ing mind-reading powers might have a hand in that. Just a thought.

 

 

The problem is, again, that Kreia prolonged his suffering for no particular reason. If she was going to preserve his life, then she ought to have done something other than waste it.

 

 

What?

 

 

How about Tobin (though the Exile can save him later)? The guy may have been on Valku's side, but in the end he was just a patriot who wanted to protect the independence of his planet, and we don't know of anything particularly evil he did other than fight on Onderon. She sent him to Nihilus to slowly die from Force drainage on his ship. Even supposing he deserved death, did he deserve a death like that?

 

If he doesn't count, how about the Jedi Masters? I wouldn't be surprised if you (like many others) consider Vrook to be a bigger monster than Malak, but what about Kavar and Zez? Did they deserve death as well?

 

If they don't count, there were definitely plenty of civilians at Telos who were killed because Kreia drew Nihilus to the system.

 

Even if none of those count, what you are implying is that because the people Kreia used were evil, it was okay. The problem with that is that she was doing it because she wanted revenge, not because she cared about the well-being of others.

 

 

And why does that justify it? Why is it admirable for Kreia to be willing to (by her own words) kill the galaxy for one woman whom she wants to use to carry out her plans?

 

 

I'd like a source for that. By all indications, the Mandalorian Wars were going bad for them simply because their sizable military was not well-commanded, nothing to do with the Jedi (who, by the way, were not in the best shape in the aftermath of the Great Sith War).

 

You may disregard that assertion of mine, however. I would be content if you were to explain how the Republic being weakened by the Jedi justifies Revan's act of declaring war on it.

 

 

So you're saying that there was no way to fix/change the form of the Republic's government that, say, would've resulted in a quadrillion or so fewer deaths than the method Revan ended up going with? Also, destroying and taking the assets of the Republic constitutes something completely different from mere change and reform. Even freaking Palpatine's rise to power was legal, as far as anyone knew.

 

The Republic's alleged ineffectiveness does not justify the deaths Revan caused (numerous civilians and Republic forces deliberately allowed to die in order to corrupt his Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars, the use of a superweapon to destroy all life on Malachor V, the deaths of numerous Republic civilians and military personnel in the Jedi Civil War, and the destruction of Republic planets by Malak which at the very least were tolerated by Revan).

 

If Revan's aims were half as noble as Kreia says, then he would have brought proof of the True Sith's existence to the Jedi Order and the Republic, and then helped them to strengthen it properly, rather than forming his own Sith Empire and trying to destroy the Republic with it. What is so damn admirable about what he planned to do? It was nothing except trading one Sith domination of the galaxy for another. We see how great it is to live under the Sith Empire in KotOR I.

 

 

The hell she does. If there is any person or thing in the entire series that we have any reason to suspect that Kreia lies about or misrepresents, it's Revan.

 

 

Revan doesn't prove **** in TSL, most importantly because he isn't in the bloody game. More to the point, it's pretty obvious that Kreia is infatuated with her greatest student, and she has every reason to lie about him - if she admits that what Revan did was wrong, then she also admits that she was a failure in teaching him, and she is unable to accept that.

 

Don't tell me that Kreia doesn't have a borderline-insane bias in favor of Revan - there is not a single solitary negative thing anywhere in TSL that she says about Revan. All she does is gush and gush and gush like so many fanboys and fangirls.

 

 

Play and pay attention to the ****ing game. Kreia's plan is to sustain the Force Wound at Malachor V that was formed when the planet got ****ed up, and it's stated elsewhere in the game that if that wound persists indefinitely, then everyone touched by the Force (i.e, everyone alive) will either be deafened to it or killed.

 

your deconstruction of Kreia's character in this debate is brilliant and spot on, she is meant to be unreliable more than anything and ultimately her motives aren't justfied nor is her commentary on Revan.

[Talyn82]

KOTOR II was great even in it's incomplete form. I enjoyed it alot better than KOTOR I and it's cliche storyline. I used to love KOTOR I until I played Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR I is just a nwn rehash. Both games have many similarities such as Malak's design.

 

Tell me Malak doesn't look like Maugrim?

 

Maugim:

 

 

Darth Malak:

 

 

 

They're many more references to NWN in KOTOR. Such as the Creator race (NWN) and the Rakatan (KOTOR)

 

I've seen this not only with KOTOR and NWN but any game that Bioware develops, they always use the same cliches.

 

That is why I take an incomplete game by Obsidian, over a complete one by Bioware any day.

 

I am convinced that the defunct Black Isle studios who most now work for Obsidian, had more to do with Baldur's Gate 2 than just publish it.

 

Edit: Didn't realize this was a necro thread.

[DuckfromPortal]

So this thread may be dead but its the main thread relating to what i wanted to say.

I played KOTOR 1 first and I hated it, I only ended up playing the second one because my brother baught it. to me the first one dragged on and on and on,

Endar spire was nice, but then there was the upper level of Taris.

I liked Carth, but Bastila was annoying as heck, Underworld was amazing and had life, but you had to go through the annoying Lower level to get there.

Zaalbar is Whiny but awesome Mission is a brat. You might see where i am going with this, in Kotor 1 for every good thing there is a bad, planets were ok, characters were nice, but it had a yin and yang of balanced good and bad stuuf that just made it aweful to me

 

 

Then I played Kotor 2, the first time i played it, peragus was just right, Except for the lack of people adding to the atmosphere, that was annoying. It was dark, creepy, and felt hopeless, setting up for the rest of the game. Harbinger set up the 'main' baddy, the guy who follows you and fights you and who you think will be the main baddy.

 

I hate telos, it sucked, the first time i played it i felt like it should have evolved and gained more quests and kind of been a hub like the citidel in mass effect. It was bland as someone said already.

 

I never go to Dantooine first, I go to Nar Shadaa, And I feel like for the time the game was released, it is spectaular, it has beggers and threats and bounty hunters, and crime lords and . . . too much for itself to have one direct meaning, it loses itself like you are supposed to get lost in it, which is great.

 

Dantooine had the wrong atmosphere to it, because the civil war thing was supposed to be in parralel to the sith jedi conflict like the one on onderon, but it had no hand behind the mercs except a disgruntled dude who talked more than he could walk. It felt like a collapsed society fighting over its shattered remains of its pasty glory (an echo if you will)

 

Which leads me to dxun and Onderon, Dxun as almost everyone says, is my favorite planet because it is the polar opposite of Onderon and yet they are basically twins, Dxun is a jungle that has hidden mandalorians who are rebuilding and trying to recapture their glory after a war that basically wiped out their species, they are the untsamed beasts of the two. While Onderon is a civilized world world that has hints of their tamed selves falling apart and the scent of civil war on the horizon, a war that threatens them to become like Dxun. A struggle of dominance for the throne as others in the shadows watch and wait, (kavar the jedi, and hinted at nehilis the sith)they wait for the war to begin so their millenia old struggle may come back to light, that of the beast versus the man, Mandolorians join the exile and who he chooses will win.

 

Korriban wasn't expansive, but i really liked it for its puzzle and sion revealing something that makes you think more about kreia.

 

I loved the battle for telos and thought thats where the game should have ended on board the ravager after defeating nehelis and having your team run on ahead to plant more charges, kreia, reveals herself and the final battle happens with her trying to use telos to create the same wound as malachor v, but no, Malachor V drags and ruins the game for me, not completely but it just makes me sad to see it make sion such a subordinent to Kreia, I mean if he ended up on the ravager trying to help Kreia and Nehelis to Finally bring an end to the jedi and to kill you, It would have been so much faster and better, having a posibly five tier bos battle ending with an epic duel between Darth trayus and the exile (Sion, Sion-Nehelis, Nehelis after absorbing Sion and gaining his power, trayus, trayus again.)

 

I have qualms with the end which still haven't been rectified by tslrcm,even if I do enjoy tslrcm alot (It adds so much! I love it) It doesn't solve the ungodly stall to the end of the game that is the pile of feces filled with wasps that is malachor V

[CMAX10]

Initially I liked KOTOR more but after some time and going back and playing TSL I may like it more than KOTOR.

The story is just so much deeper and more interesting.

The atmosphere of hopelessness and despair really made you feel how bad the galaxy has been affected by the wars.

Also having he main character be a completely original person, unlike Revan allowed you to get more involved in the story.