Everybody Loves Star Wars

[BaronGrackle]

28 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

And of course, lest we forget, the EU was never "canon" it was only a certain canon.

 

This gets into "what is canon". If you're only counting what George Lucas cared about, then no it wasn't.

 

But if a new book, video game, show, comic book, RPG or other tabletop came out, then it was understood that it existed in the same universe as the prior works of the EU. Even when George made his Prequels, fans watched these films with the understanding that earlier things like Exar Kun had come before, and later things like Thrawn and the Yuuzhan Vong came later.

 

If you were at a trivia night and the question was, "Who was Luke Skywalker's wife?" the answer was Mara Jade. "Who was the first person shown to use a double-bladed lightsaber?" well not Darth Maul, but Exar Kun... I first learned about Exar Kun specifically from reading on Darth Maul. If you were making an article about Boba Fett's life, you didn't say he died in the Sarlaac Pit with a decisive burp. When Grey's Anatomy wanted to depict a character who was a huge Star Wars fan, she knew that Han and Leia's children were the twins Jaina and Jacen.

 

 

10 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

It's only beautiful for the very small minority of people who care, though.

The problem is: this mindframe is the one that creates The Rise of Skywalker.

 

"We don't need to please the small minority of nerds. To most people, Star Wars is just pew pew kaboom adventure!"

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[KestrelPi]

30 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Yep, aside from the weird snafu of Greedo shooting first, everyone was still very much pro-Lucas. The Phantom Menace became the biggest joke in the world after it was released. Everyone wanted to love it so much, but everyone was so disappointed...

 

I think people were still hopeful that he'd course correct for Attack of the Clones (although the title, when it was announced, didn't inspire confidence).

 

Really The Force Awakens was the film that all of us wanted in 1999 (at least in tone and direction -- less green screen, etc.). But for those who grew up with the prequels... maybe they wanted more of those?

 

 

I feel about Curse of Monkey Island similarly to how I feel about TFA.

 

I think it's a very enjoyable game/film that is also markedly unambitious in its story scope. It hits a lot of very similar points to ones that people liked about the previous games/films, but I don't blame it for that. I see it as a trust-building excercise. New game/film, new creators. They have expectations on their shoulders and the first thing they want to prove is that they can make a regular-ass game/film in the series that meets the kind of expectations people have for This Sort Of Thing. After they've proved they can do that, then maybe they can get a bit braver.

 

I think Rian Johnson was rather hoping that since TFA had been well received on the whole he might be able to take some things in a surprising direction, which very much worked for me, but apparently not everyone. While EMI really does get a lot wilder with its plot than CMI ever attempts, and with that one I'm in the camp of people it didn't quite work for.

13 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

 

The problem is: this mindframe is the one that creates The Rise of Skywalker.

 

"We don't need to please the small minority of nerds. To most people, Star Wars is just pew pew kaboom adventure!"

 

I think this is an extremely revisionist way of looking at what happened there. Most people still liked TLJ. The ones that didn't like it most were a minority of loud, angry nerds who yelled and yelled until Disney chickened out, brought Abrams back (because people liked that first one), and then desperately scrambled to insert the familiar i.e. palpatine into the story in a rather pathetic attempt to appease them.

 

TRoS is what happens when you listen TOO MUCH to nerds. (And besides the bits of TRoS that were pew pew kaboom adventure were the only good things about it)

Edited September 13, 2022 by KestrelPi

[BaronGrackle]

1 hour ago, KestrelPi said:

I think this is an extremely revisionist way of looking at what happened there. Most people still liked TLJ. The ones that didn't like it most were a minority of loud, angry nerds who yelled and yelled until Disney chickened out, brought Abrams back (because people liked that first one), and then desperately scrambled to insert the familiar i.e. palpatine into the story in a rather pathetic attempt to appease them.

 

TRoS is what happens when you listen TOO MUCH to nerds.

Blaming fans for Rise of Skywalker just doesn't hold up.

 

You could probably point the finger to fans for

1) Rose Tico having a lesser role,

2) Rey being shown in a major training session, and

3) On-screen dialogue about the Holdo Maneuver being unreliable.

 

Of which, I think only Rose's lessened role would be problematic. I enjoyed seeing Rey on the obstacle course as the film started.

 

Palpatine's return? No fans asked for that. Macguffin hunts and death fakeouts? No fans asked for that. Super Force Healing, Uber Lightning, and Planetkiller Ships? No fans asked for that. 
 

Luke saying he was wrong for throwing away his lightsaber? This was already part of the thematic conclusion in TLJ; it was in sync with Rian's vision. Romance with Kylo and Rey? Reylo fans who liked TLJ wanted it; including this ignored TLJ haters. Force ghosts physically manipulating/grabbing things even more? In sync with TLJ; including it ignored TLJ haters. Kylo and Rey sharing a dyaad, and upgrading their Force viewing/teleportation power? In sync with TLJ; including it ignored TLJ haters. The battle montage scene that shows another example of the Holdo Maneuver successfully destroying an enemy ship? In sync with TLJ; including it ignored TLJ haters.

 

The end product Rise of Skywalker is all on Abrams and Lucasfilm. It would be wrong of me to blame TLJ fans for all the weird decisions he made that stayed loyal to TLJ, just as it's wrong to blame TLJ haters for all the weird decisions that he made himself.

 

They were never planning to use Johnson on that film. They brought in Abrams, and Abrams made a fun little space movie with lots of pew pew. He brought Palpatine back because he, the fan of pew pee and lightning zaps, wanted Palpatine back. He did what he wanted, nothing more or less. He didn't waste time pandering to minority communities of internet nerds. So if you want to find a cause for TROS's quality, please don't blame the internet fans that Abrams happily ignored.

1 hour ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Yep, aside from the weird snafu of Greedo shooting first, everyone was still very much pro-Lucas. The Phantom Menace became the biggest joke in the world after it was released. Everyone wanted to love it so much, but everyone was so disappointed...

 

I think people were still hopeful that he'd course correct for Attack of the Clones (although the title, when it was announced, didn't inspire confidence).

Yeah, you're describing the era of Lucas disdain. Phantom Menace was a defining moment. But even before then, "Han Shot First" was one of the early internet memes. When Disney bought it all, I was actually looking forward to showing my kids the original OT on Disney+. He got us good with that "maclunkey" edit, didn't he? 😆
But maybe someday.

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[KestrelPi]

39 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Blaming fans for Rise of Skywalker just doesn't hold up.

 

You could probably point the finger to fans for

1) Rose Tico having a lesser role,

2) Rey being shown in a major training session, and

3) On-screen dialogue about the Holdo Maneuver being unreliable.

 

Of which, I think only Rose's lessened role would be problematic. I enjoyed seeing Rey on the obstacle course as the film started.

 

Palpatine's return? No fans asked for that. Macguffin hunts and death fakeouts? No fans asked for that. Super Force Healing, Uber Lightning, and Planetkiller Ships? No fans asked for that. 
 

Luke saying he was wrong for throwing away his lightsaber? This was already part of the thematic conclusion in TLJ; it was in sync with Rian's vision. Romance with Kylo and Rey? Reylo fans who liked TLJ wanted it; including this ignored TLJ haters. Force ghosts physically manipulating/grabbing things even more? In sync with TLJ; including it ignored TLJ haters. Kylo and Rey sharing a dyaad, and upgrading their Force viewing/teleportation power? In sync with TLJ; including it ignored TLJ haters. The battle montage scene that shows another example of the Holdo Maneuver successfully destroying an enemy ship? In sync with TLJ; including it ignored TLJ haters.

 

The end product Rise of Skywalker is all on Abrams and Lucasfilm. It would be wrong of me to blame TLJ fans for all the weird decisions he made that stayed loyal to TLJ, just as it's wrong to blame TLJ haters for all the weird decisions that he made himself.

 

They were never planning to use Johnson on that film. They brought in Abrams, and Abrams made a fun little space movie with lots of pew pew. He did what he wanted, nothing more or less. He didn't waste time pandering to minority communities of internet nerds. So if you want to find a cause for TROS's quality, please don't blame the internet fans that Abrams happily ignored.

Yeah, you're describing the era of Lucas disdain. Phantom Menace was a defining moment.

 

You misunderstand me. I'm not blaming fans for RoS, only the people who made it can be blamed for it. But it is absolutely and blatantly obvious that the decisions they made in making RoS were a conscious reaction to the response to TLJ, which WAS driven by fans. It is impossible for me to view RoS as its own set of mistakes completely divorced from the response to TLJ because it so very clearly was a reaction to that. I'm not saying they responded well or logically to that response, but the decisions they made do absolutely reflect their fear in the face of the response to TLJ.

 

Yes, even the Palpatine bit. It screams, 'ahh, okay, gotta right the ship, what's a bone we can throw fans that people like and is familiar... oh, I don't know. Resurrect Palpatine. People like Palpatine. Go with that. Make it work.'

 

And I never said that they planned to use Johnson for the next part (you really, really have a bad habit of putting words into my mouth!) - but given they changed directors for 8, you think they might have again changed for 9 instead of going back to the director for 7 (and in fact this was going to be true, with Colin Trevorrow being the director for 9 initially, then them changing it).

 

This, too, feels like a reaction 'people liked 7, some people rioted about 8... let's just go back to the director for 7 rather than risk another newbie. Safe pair of hands.'

 

I'm sure RoS wasn't COMPLETELY the result of Disney and Abrams being worried about the response of a loud internet mob. But I think you have to ignore a lot to believe it was unrelated.

 

Indeed, despite most people seeming to agree in the clear light of day that RoS was kind of a underwhelming whimper of a conclusion, it received almost none of the instant fury that TLJ got from some quarters. And I'd put that down to it being bad in ways that are merely boring. Why is it boring? Because they were too afraid to do anything bold.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by KestrelPi

[BaronGrackle]

8 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

 

You misunderstand me. I'm not blaming fans for RoS, only the people who made it can be blamed for it. But it is absolutely and blatantly obvious that the decisions they made in making RoS were a conscious reaction to the response to TLJ, which WAS driven by fans. It is impossible for me to view RoS as its own set of mistakes completely divorced from the response to TLJ because it so very clearly was a reaction to that. I'm not saying they responded well or logically to that response, but the decisions they made do absolutely reflect their fear in the face of the response to TLJ.

 

Yes, even the Palpatine bit. It screams, 'ahh, okay, gotta right the ship, what's a bone we can throw fans that people like and is familiar... oh, I don't know. Resurrect Palpatine. People like Palpatine. Go with that. Make it work.'

 

And I never said that they planned to use Johnson for the next part (you really, really have a bad habit of putting words into my mouth!) - but given they changed directors for 8, you think they might have again changed for 9 instead of going back to the director for 7 (and in fact this was going to be true, with Colin Trevorrow being the director for 9 initially, then them changing it).

 

This, too, feels like a reaction 'people liked 7, some people rioted about 8... let's just go back to the director for 7 rather than risk another newbie. Safe pair of hands.'

 

 

 

 

What about all the bad elements that were still loyal to TLJ? The Reylo romance, the dyaad, the Force skype teleport, the Jedi texts with new information, the Holdo maneuver in the end battle? Luke renouncing the attitude he had in TLJ is consistent with that film's theme and narrative, though I've heard some fans who consider it a betrayal.
 

You wouldn't blame TLJ hate for those TLJ-friendly elements, would you?

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[KestrelPi]

8 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

What about all the bad elements that were still loyal to TLJ? The Reylo romance, the dyaad, the Force skype teleport, the Jedi texts with new information, the Holdo maneuver in the end battle? Luke renouncing his attitude in TLJ consistent with that film's theme and narrative, though I've heard some fans who consider it a betrayal.
 

You wouldn't blame TLJ hate for those TLJ-friendly elements, would you?

 

I'll merely repeat my statement above:

 

15 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

I'm sure RoS wasn't COMPLETELY the result of Disney and Abrams being worried about the response of a loud internet mob. But I think you have to ignore a lot to believe it was unrelated.

 

Saying that I think the reaction to TLJ had a lot to do with how Abrams and Disney decided to approach RoS isn't the same as me saying it was entirely responsible for everything bad about that film. And I think you know that.

 

But also I didn't see the Reylo thing in TLJ as a romance. Yes, there was a sort of sexual tension there but for me the kiss at the end of RoS came right out of leftfield, they hadn't done NEARLY enough of the groundwork to establish that there was a romantic attachment there. In the cinema, I nearly said 'Sorry, WHAT?' out loud. Honestly Guybrush and Elaine in MI1 had a more believable romantic arc. And for how bad the prequels were at writing romance, they at LEAST left you under no illusions about how Anakin felt.

Edited September 13, 2022 by KestrelPi

[BaronGrackle]

3 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

But also I didn't see the Reylo thing in TLJ as a romance. Yes, there was a sort of sexual tension there but for me the kiss at the end of RoS came right out of leftfield, they hadn't done NEARLY enough of the groundwork to establish that there was a romantic attachment there. In the cinema, I nearly said 'Sorry, WHAT?' out loud. Honestly Guybrush and Elaine in MI1 had a more believable romantic arc.

 

A lot of other fans agree. For me, it's something that jumps out as a decision Abrams made that completely ignored the fan haters of TLJ. In a universe without fan haters, I still see him making that decision.

[KestrelPi]

20 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

 

A lot of other fans agree. For me, it's something that jumps out as a decision Abrams made that completely ignored the fan haters of TLJ. In a universe without fan haters, I still see him making that decision.

 

For me it just ignores TLJ in a whole different way. TLJ at least had enough subtelty to it that you could legitimately think 'there seems to be some sexual tension here but it's not fully clear at what level it's operating. Are the characters conscious of it themselves or is it just me, the audience member? Is this being set up as a potential future romance or are we supposed to see this as a sort of metaphor for the temptation both characters are feeling of being seduced towards the dark/light?' That interplay between these two characters 'forbidden' temptations added a dangerous sort of layer to their interactions that to me at least was way more interesting than 'They're in love actually, BAM *kiss*'

 

While we're at it... rggh. The whole idea about a character who is tortured by feeling seduced by the light side was so interesting and such a natural evolution of what happens a the end of RotJ, I'm also irritated that they didn't do more with it after TLJ.

Edited September 13, 2022 by KestrelPi

[Aro-tron]

1 hour ago, KestrelPi said:

Like I say, this is all a mythology anyway, it's even presented a bit like an epic myth - why not accept that like all ancient myths, there are different tellings and different versions of the story, and you can choose which ones you like. Why this need for certainty? (Don't get me wrong, I think I understand the appeal of canon, it's just that I also understand why it is that sometimes creators and writers have a bit of a funny relationship with canon)

Yes, I think the EU canon had become pretty overstuffed and restrictive by the time Disney bought Lucasfilm, and I don't blame them for essentially just wiping it and starting over. I personally liked the improvised nature of the brand as it existed in the early '90s, but I'm not sure how long it could have continued to expand without imploding. I like the ideas of several tiers of canon that Lucasfilm developed, but I think having to classify stuff in that level of detail point to larger problems.

 

If you look at superhero comics, they don't have the same compulsion to synthesize everything into the same timeline, or to classify whether something really 'counts' or not. It's all just stories. It's not a perfect approach, but it's certainly more flexible. I think I would be more receptive to a Han Solo prequel film if it were supposed to be a version Han Solo, rather than the definitive Han Solo.

 

All the same, I think I liked Star Wars because I was a kid, and there wasn't much else like it at the time. I stopped caring as much after the prequels came out, and the book license moved from Bantam to Del Rey, and LucasArts started pumping out tie-in games that no longer told their own stories ... but that was also around the time that I learned to drive a car, and started thinking about going to college, etc. That all happened at the same time for me, so it's hard to say if the old way was truly better, of it I just liked it because it was what I had as a kid. The fact that it all started changing around the time that I stopped being a kid makes it easy to be nostalgic for. I imagine for people who were becoming adults right as the sequel trilogy came and the EU canon was ditched out feel similarly ambivalent about it all.

[Wally B.]

I get that "canon" is a cool concept and sometimes, but I feel it works better when there's a clear vision behind it.

To me, it seems that Star Wars never had a clear vision of canon and that Disney is trying to rectify that, but people can ignore it if they don't like that direction.

There were already at least other two continuations of the original trilogy in the EU (if I'm not mistaken), and there still are, so if somebody prefers those he can still regard them as canon. And it's not like saying "but the creators said it's not" can invalidate that. It's a work of fiction, not history.

That's why I never understand fans of something saying that "they ruined it" whenever a new sequel/spin-off/remake/etc. comes out.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Aro-tron said:

If you look at superhero comics, they don't have the same compulsion to synthesize everything into the same timeline, or to classify whether something really 'counts' or not.

"He said trying not to look at Marvel comics"

[Aro-tron]

27 minutes ago, Wally B. said:

There were already at least other two continuations of the original trilogy in the EU (if I'm not mistaken), and there still are, so if somebody prefers those he can still regard them as canon. And it's not like saying "but the creators said it's not" can invalidate that. It's a work of fiction, not history.

Yeah, I agree. Those books/games/comics are all still available (not sure if the novels are still in print), which is cool. I'm just ambivalent about the drive to re-make Star Wars as this cohesive universe. 

 

In the wild and wooly pre-prequel trilogy days, Lucas licensed Star Wars to a bunch of different companies that expanded the universe in different ways, so there wasn't a cohesive plan. I don't think that was by design, in retrospect I feel that I liked that the old version didn't fit well together. Fans seemed more tolerant of each other at that time as well, because you just learned to roll with the contradictions of the franchise.

 

More recently, it just seems like Star Wars has become something people argue about, and it doesn't feel fun any more. But I've also aged out of it. I only made it into a few episodes of the Mandelorian before I got bored, so I probably shouldn't even be on this thread ...

[ThunderPeel2001]

4 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

This gets into "what is canon". If you're only counting what George Lucas cared about, then no it wasn't.

 

LucasFilm set very specific canon types, all officially recognised, that were then deleted when Disney took over.

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon#Canon_and_the_Expanded_Universe

 

Quote

G-canon was George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources were also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources was C-canon. When the films were changed, the newest editions were deemed to take canonical precedence over older ones, as they corrected mistakes, improved consistency between the two trilogies, and expressed Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs were also considered G-canon (when they didn't conflict with the movie).[17]

 

T-canon, or Television Canon,[19] referred to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the television show Star Wars: The Clone Wars. (It would have also included the ultimately unproduced Star Wars live-action TV series.)[20][21] It was devised more recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee.[22]

 

C-canon was Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games were a special case, as generally only the stories were C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not have been;[23] they also offered non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have appeared in the movies, making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

 

S-canon was Secondary Canon; the materials were available to be used or ignored as needed by authors. This included mostly older works, such as much of the original Marvel Star Wars comics, that predated a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contained certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements were elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

 

D was Detours Canon, used for material hailing from Star Wars Detours.[24]

 

N was Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ended up here. N was the only level that was not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or canceled Star Wars works fell into this category as well, unless another canonical work referenced it and it was declared canon.

 

[Jake]

5 hours ago, Laserschwert said:

The 90s were a time when, to me, it felt like George was basically hands-off SW. He created a sandbox for other people to play in, and that's what the EU did.

This, for a while, seemed to be all he did. LucasArts was a sandbox created for other people to play in (“just don’t lose money”), and ILM increasingly became the toybox a set of other directors could play with when making effects-filled blockbusters. George as benevolent king of a quality-first entertainment empire was the impression I had when I was the most engaged with it all, in the mid 90s before the special editions started to unravel things, then the phantom menace hit. 

[BaronGrackle]

4 hours ago, KestrelPi said:

 

For me it just ignores TLJ in a whole different way. TLJ at least had enough subtelty to it that you could legitimately think 'there seems to be some sexual tension here but it's not fully clear at what level it's operating. Are the characters conscious of it themselves or is it just me, the audience member? Is this being set up as a potential future romance or are we supposed to see this as a sort of metaphor for the temptation both characters are feeling of being seduced towards the dark/light?' That interplay between these two characters 'forbidden' temptations added a dangerous sort of layer to their interactions that to me at least was way more interesting than 'They're in love actually, BAM *kiss*'

 

While we're at it... rggh. The whole idea about a character who is tortured by feeling seduced by the light side was so interesting and such a natural evolution of what happens a the end of RotJ, I'm also irritated that they didn't do more with it after TLJ.

If TLJ set up sexual tension with subtlety and an unclear direction, then wasn't it an obligation for Abrams to pursue that? There's no clear instance of, "They're in love, actually" within TROS. They do kiss in last moments before death, but you could argue the meaning of that kiss was just as unclear.

 

Kylo continued being seduced by the Light side in TROS, eventually "falling" to it. Seduction from the Light side was also explored in ROTJ with Vader (and a slew of video games and books, besides that). Perhaps having him NOT seduced by the Light would have been more original.

 

 

2 hours ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

LucasFilm set very specific canon types, all officially recognised, that were then deleted when Disney took over.

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon#Canon_and_the_Expanded_Universe

 

 

 

Yes, these canon tiers. Note the N-Canon and S-Canon... these were the "wild and wooly" times that other posters have referred to.

 

C-Canon was what you found in the novels, games, etc. during the 90s-00s. As you see, they were treated as canon unless contradicted by George himself. That's what G-Canon was... if George said something official, it trumped the rest. He rarely excercised that.

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[KestrelPi]

8 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

If TLJ set up sexual tension with subtlety and an unclear direction, then wasn't it an obligation for Abrams to pursue that? There's no clear instance of, "They're in love, actually" within TROS. They do kiss in last moments before death, but you could argue the meaning of that kiss was just as unclear.

 

Kylo continued being seduced by the Light side in TROS, eventually "falling" to it. Seduction from the Light side was also explored in ROTJ with Vader (and a slew of video games and books, besides that). Perhaps having him NOT seduced by the Light would have been more original.

 

I think what I'm learning is that I just straight up do not understand a lot of your reads (with no disrespect). I don't see how else we're supposed to intepret the kiss. If it was supposed to be interpreted some other way then that's just another thing the film put across very poorly.

 

Yes, that stuff about the light side happened. But I wasn't asking for it to happen I was asking for it to be explored. After all, it was previously the accepted read that the dark side is seductively powerful but corrupting, and now we have this idea that some people on the dark side might feel a pull towards the light.

 

I would say no, this wasn't explored in ROTJ, all that did was introduce the idea that a character could be swayed back to the light side through persuasion and intense emotional stakes involving the potential death of their child.

 

TFA (as far as films go) introduces the quite intriguing evolution of that idea, by having Kylo confess a pull to the light, and seeing killing his father as a way of severing ties with it. TLJ, I think played with this in a quite lovely way by offering an explanation of why he had performed so badly against an amateur, by having Snoke tear into Kylo about how he couldn't deal with the guilt of what he did. Eventually in RoS Kylo does try to redeem himself but I wish the series as a whole had done more to examine the idea that there's more subtlety to the force than the good and pure light side and the evil and seductive dark sides. I dunno, I don't want it to pull some 'both sides' nonsense, but also I feel like TLJ got really close to saying maybe the Jedi Order isn't the only game in town, maybe there's flaws in an institution so old and set in its ways, and I think I'd have liked to see more of that.

[BaronGrackle]

32 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

but also I feel like TLJ got really close to saying maybe the Jedi Order isn't the only game in town, maybe there's flaws in an institution so old and set in its ways, and I think I'd have liked to see more of that.

Sometimes I wonder what could have been if, during that film, Rey accepted Kylo's offer on the condition that the First Order call off its pursuit of the Resistance. Then the next film would have been in a position to explore nuances between "good guys" and "bad guys" between the factions.

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[ThunderPeel2001]

56 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Yes, these canon tiers. Note the N-Canon and S-Canon... these were the "wild and wooly" times that other posters have referred to.

 

Actually the wild and wooly years were before they hired someone to create these canons...

[BaronGrackle]

8 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

Actually the wild and wooly years were before they hired someone to create these canons...

Right! That's what I meant. After they decided to tighten canon, the stuff they wrote afterward was C-Canon. Part of the continuity. The stuff from before was S-Canon. Secondary. Maybe it fit in, but no promises?
 

Of course, the whole thing kind of buckled under when George created the Clone Wars cartoon and decided to contradict the nature of the CIS from Episodes II and III, meaning that a T-Canon show was superceding G-Canon films because George said so... but those were the end years when he was touching more things. https://screenrant.com/clone-wars-trade-federation-retcon-lucas-idea/

Edited September 13, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Aro-tron]

I didn't think Kylo's arc in ROS made a lot of sense - or at least I don't remember the logic or emotional stakes of it, especially compared to his arcs in TFA and TLJ, which felt very clear to me.

 

I think there was a missed opportunity to have a very big pivot for Kylo as a result of Luke defeating him at the end of TLJ. If you make that a moment that directly leads to either Kylo's destruction or redemption, it would have made the whole trilogy feel a lot more cohesive.

 

Maybe his defeat lead to the First Order starting to lose faith in Kylo, and results in his power being reduced within the organization. This leads him to become even more desperate and reckless.

 

Maybe Kylo becomes obsessed with getting revenge on Luke, not understanding that Luke become one with the Force.

 

Maybe Luke continues to appear to him as a force ghost, eventually guides him back to some kind of redemption, as he had done for Vader.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yep. I feel like before anyone had seen any footage of ROS, JJ Abrams must have sent a video to Rian Johnson labelled, "Sneak peek of Rise of Skywalker". When Johnson clicked PLAY JJ Abrams appeared on screen with a copy of TLJ, unzipped his pants, and then took a big dump on it. That's basically what ROS felt like to me. Every single interesting thing about TLJ was ignored or reversed

 

When fan service goes too far. Anyway...

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[BaronGrackle]

48 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

Yep. I feel like before anyone had seen any footage of ROS, JJ Abrams must have sent a video to Rian Johnson labelled, "Sneak peek of Rise of Skywalker". When Johnson clicked PLAY JJ Abrams appeared on screen with a copy of TLJ, unzipped his pants, and then took a big dump on it. That's basically what ROS felt like to me. Every single interesting thing about TLJ was ignored or reversed

 

When fan service goes too far. Anyway...

 

But Rian says that at the end of TLJ, Luke has turned back into a legend and doesn't have the same mentality he had at the start of TLJ. Aren't Luke's lines and actions in TROS indicative of that?

[ThunderPeel2001]

12 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

But Rian says that at the end of TLJ, Luke has turned back into a legend and doesn't have the same mentality he had at the start of TLJ. Aren't Luke's lines and actions in TROS indicative of that?

 

As I said, "every single interesting thing about TLJ was ignored or reversed". Besides, I exaggerate for effect, I just can't remember any of the interesting aspects of TLJ being carried over into ROTS.

[BaronGrackle]

23 minutes ago, ThunderPeel2001 said:

 

As I said, "every single interesting thing about TLJ was ignored or reversed". Besides, I exaggerate for effect, I just can't remember any of the interesting aspects of TLJ being carried over into ROTS.

If not Luke's characterization, then what were the most interesting things of TLJ for you? I'm guessing the idea of Kylo as the primary villain is one.

[ThunderPeel2001]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

If not Luke's characterization, then what were the most interesting things of TLJ for you? I'm guessing the idea of Kylo as the primary villain is one.

 

Nope, not really. (Sorry, I just can't be bothered to engage in a debate right now. Long day.)

Edited September 14, 2022 by ThunderPeel2001

[ThunderPeel2001]

Okay... just for you, here's a sample of things that make The Last Jedi the most interesting Star Wars movie™ (caveat: to me):

• Rey's devastating realisation that she's not special. She's a nobody. That was such a crushing and brilliant moment, and something we hadn't seen before: A hero without a manifest destiny. I was so looking forward to her reconciling this, and learning to accept herself for who she is... you know, actual emotional growth. And something that everyone in the audience can relate to.
• Luke being a tortured soul after creating a monster. Again, the whole sequence was brilliant: You could totally see how it could happen, even from someone well intentioned. And how it would be impossible to bridge that gap and ever make it right. (This one wasn't actually undone by ROTS, if memory serves?)
• The obliteration of the flyboy hero myth. Again, a fantastic sequence as Poe is brought down to earth by crushing reality: The real world doesn't need rogue cowboys. In the real world, you're a cog in a machine, especially in a military organisation. You're not privy to every plan, especially at this low level, and you're expected to do your duty. In the real world heroes are reliable and dependable, not ego maniacs.
• The complicating of the Light and the Dark side of the Force: The idea that to achieve true balance you actually need to accept both. An actually mature philosophy, rather than the basic one that the previous films espoused, and (if you think about it) led to the downfall of the Republic in the prequels. (And, arguably Luke Skywalker being lied and manipulated to by Obi Wan and Yoda into murdering his father(!).)
• It was all prepped for IX to take us somewhere really interesting. Instead they gave Chewbacca a medal... which means that the awards ceremony in the first movie actually contains a horribly racist snub by Princess Leia.

I loved Knights of the Old Republic because it added depth and maturity to the Star Wars universe (admittedly I last played it 20 years ago, but that's what I remember about it -- it was the first time that I saw rational arguments made for use of the "Dark" side, which I thought was nice.). And I loved The Last Jedi for the same reasons.

 

It's sad that Finn never got his day in either movie, though. He was so interesting in TFA, and then he just never reached his full potential