Lightsaber Needs to be Made Respectable : Ep. 2

[Wilhuf]

On with Part 2, continuing on with the Reasons Why the Lightsaber Needs to be Made Respectable thread.

[KillerBee]

Well I was replying to wd-torment that jks sab throw was going to be controlled ala hls rpg. as said in a later preview on jkmag forums.

And that the idea many people want is for sabres and guns to work together.. and not have to be seperate sabs games and guns games.. as this has been a reason for divide in the community.

[Tap[RR]]

Yes, it must be balanced . Saberist just should have a CHANCE against gunners. Same with gunners going up against saberist.

[?DrIfTeR?]

Hopefully the devs are listening so they may bring balance to the force.

[Luck]

Well, only way i see the saber working would be with defense, and with precise kills on folks holding guns. U can't block with yer gun remember.

 

Also being sneaky and waiting around corners, tho really, if u can block everything except for membe one or 2 weapons, the saber is perfectly respectable as a straight defensive weapon.

 

 

Lucky

[The Wanderer]

The saber ALREADY does block everything but one or two weapons. That's why everybody uses the rail and conc. (splash damage being another reason) Who out there EVER bothers using any gun other than the conc or rail (with any degree of success that is). the ST Rifle, Repeater, and Bowcaster are pretty much pointless And this is where I think the TRUE imbalance here lies.

 

Free your minds, who said concs or rail type explosives are even going to be in JK. that tosses out the questions of "is the conc compressed air or not" and "can a jedi safely slice through the explosive charge of a projectile" right out of the window.

 

Now, if you honestly want to balance out the GAMEplay, all of that science fiction technobable is meaningless and detrimental anyway. The problem is this, the big guns are VERY powerfull and have splash damage AND a saberist has no defence aginst them. That is a clear imbalance. Possible solution? the Saber can block all of the powerful heavy duty guns. yet to maintain balance, so the saber doesn't get too powerful, it should have trouble blocking the weaker weapons.

 

BIG gun

advantage: a. splash damage b. powerful

 

disadvantage: it's completely blockable.

 

Small gun

advantage: it can't/has trouble being blocked.

 

Disadvantage: it's weak, takes multiple hits to kill someone.

 

saber:

Advantage: a. very powerful b. can block heavy firepower

 

Disadvantage: a. very short range b. has trouble blocking smaller weapons with rapid fire.

 

 

rather than being a balance problem, the saber now ends up maintaining the balance much like rock paper scissors. Saber beats Big gun, Big gun beats little gun, little gun beats saber... and around and around... balance. Much nicer. I mean, if Rock broke scissors AND ripped trough paper everyone would just always choose rock.

 

yes I KNOW sabers have been shown time and time again to block ST rifles, and bowcasters, but I'm talking pure generalized balance here. to make this work you'd probably have to make up new yet weaker guns that can bypass a saber, or maybe the repeater/ST rifle's rate of fire is so fast that you just can't block them all, maybe the ST Rifle could be an "imbetween" weapon. Crank up it's power, and while it's still somewhat blockable, 50% or so of it's shots can still get through.

[Luck]

hehe, thats actually a good idea, nother take on what i was talking about.

 

Not what i'd want, but a good idea none the less.

 

Lucky

[KillerBee]

It was already suggested that the conky utilises only its jk 2ndry fire, for an unblockable precise weapon.

 

then blasters should have the highest damage per second (well they did in jk actually) but even more emphasis.

 

so you ended with blasters beat conky

conky beats sabre

sabre beats blasters. Instead.

 

But then you still got the problem of splash weapons

imho the idea of destroying a rail and not blowing your arm of is kinda illogical to me.. and always will be.

 

The force is a better way to remove them as a problem. Same with thermal detonaters. Which should both be hard to get ammo for, and useless at close range due to the fact they will rip you up with them.

 

But then if jedi can use guns you get splash proofing with out the need for sabres.

blasters would be fun as the most damaging weapons, with q3 netcode. so you can actually get hits.

 

On a side note stormtroopers had little protection locks on their small thermal detonaters stopping rebels from getting hold of them..

one soldier skill being weapon key breaking

 

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: KillerBee ]

[SlowbieOne]

I like that idea Wanderer. All weapons should have advantages and disadvantages. If you have played Unreal Tournament, you know it's just as easy to kill someone with and enforcer than with any weapon. I just hope they don't make the blaster to collect dust again.

[wardz]

thats a good idea Wanderer.

 

I quite like that, but the only problem is that you will get some people who will not like it because it will not portray an accurate picture of the saber becaue you see in films that the saber is the UBER weapon.

 

However as I think ED said that is because the Jedi never face anything other than the stormtrooper rifle.

 

So a decision has to be made, make the saber the UBER weapon and keep the film fans happy or make it balance and please everyone else.

 

Decisions Decisions..

 

I'm glad I dont have to do that...

 

But anyway I can't do anything so I will just sit back and relax, I don't really care anymore as Raven have prolly decided this looong ago by now.

 

wardz

[wikedjedi]

in nf guns vs sabers, sabers wont have a chance... but, in MotS, the personalities gave them a big chance, for example, if all 4 personalities were in the same game everyone would have a chance, the only way to help out the saber is with force. Which mots gave it to them.

 

The only way to give nf sabers a decent chance is to make it where if you carry a certain weapon it will change your running speed. But, in my opinion, its lame in mp(example- in the game Dues Ex, they did that, it might make it fair but it isnt as good gameplay which is theimportant thing)

 

So, mainly what im trying to say is that hopefully they'll make it more like mots with the personalities. And evan those had a different speed with differnt personalities but it wasn't drastic enough to effect gameplay.

 

wiked

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Who says that the saber should (or could) be made as powerfull in a NF environment. That kind of thinking reminds me of the idea that an army marching in tight formation and wearing bright red unis can win againt an army hiding and shooting them from behind trees. Who wins in the end? Check the nearest US post office flag poll.

 

I can see the saberin winning out against direct fire weapons that can be blocked, but adding splash weapons changes the outcome.

 

It's almost the same in FF guns. Try using saber against WD_NiGhTMaReZ, WD_SpAnKeR, JaG_Rieko, or DSbr_AeRoN in FF oasis. You won't tough them. Now I admit that it's JK1, and it's possible that the gameplay of JK2 will change this. But then, maybe not. With ample room to move, heavy weapons, and high levels of speed and jump, the sab could be just as useless as in JK.

 

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: -WD- ToRMeNt ]

[SlowbieOne]

I would like to have balanced gameplay just as much as everyone else.

 

But if they do decide to make the weapons unbalanced, I hope the make the lightsaber the best weapon.

 

Actually, let me rephrase that. I want it so if you a master of the saber, a gunner has the disadvantage. I don't know if this would include being able to block all weapon attacks, but I would rather have it that way.

 

Kyle is supposedly a full blown Jedi in JO. The lightsaber should be the best weapon, hands down. They made the conc. the weapon of choice in JK, now it's the sabers turn.

[KillerBee]

torment: I was once in a ffa wif sithlord aeron and someone else, death I think a while back, on oasis and half the time everyone was using sabres, cause guns were pulled left right and centre. fun it was..

 

Sabres in jk1 are lame.. I believe that was the entire point of this thread, that lasted 10 pages.. we all agreed.. and we wanted to think of ways to change them for the better.

 

Imho sabres dont have to break film rules to be balanced. you just need a class system which have jedis only able to use the sabre, and cant use guns..

[wardz]

It was only a limitation in technology that made the saber crap in JK. That is why Torment and others you used guns - b\c it was so pain stakingly obvious that guns were superior.

 

Now the tech has improved the saber can get the recognition it rightly deserves.

 

This is JEDI KNIGHT, some of us actually want to play as a JEDI. If you want to play some mindless fps go ahead.

 

Open your eyes, this isn't going to be JK reincarnated...

 

wardz

[Boba Jim]

What wardz said. But all this talk of sabers blocking everything is silly. A saber is not the ultimate weapon. A highly skilled Jedi with a saber might be. That means that there is a lot more to winning a fight than having the best weapon. If you don't have any more sense than to stand out in the open while being fired at, you're not a very smart Jedi. It would seem many factors go into the balance of a saber yeilding Jedi vs a weapon toting gunfighter. Force capabilities, speed, map layout, and most importantly...strategy. That's the number one thing JK had that is seriously overlooked. Few FPS have a strategic component like JK and that, along with the sabers, makes the game(s) stand out among the other FPSs. The saber just needed a little more controlability and versatility. It looks like Raven may have addressed that issue already.

[SlowbieOne]

Right On Wardz!

[KillerBee]

I dont think it was just tech..

player speeds make it useless unless you can get in range..

 

JK ff was prolly the most tactical and strategic dms their is.. specially with double item times, which is something imho they must keep..

pull v walk over was great.

[KillerBee]

ohh and mabye the xbow will be made extra good.

maybe kill charge up, and make it blast out a narrower spread of 5 shots..

that will get round sabres.

[DeathBoLT]

In nf, theres no reason to make the saber powerful because Jedi with a saber is still useless without the force. In the movies, the saber was a uber weapon. But that was so only because it's wielder had the force.

 

Btw, I'd like to see the old caste system(FF Sabs/guns NF guns/sabs) abolished. I'd rather see Saberist and Gunner with the saber with force and the gunner with some sort of technological equivalant.

[Luck]

Makes no sense for a jedi not to pick up the technological equvialent and start ruling ass with both the force and the guns.

 

So, saber and guns have to be balanced so that u can use either one and expect to get a fair shot at not getting insta gibbed on spawn.

 

And torm, u might think u can dodge a saber gettin chucked at u, but since the person tossin it has so much control, who's to say they don't use it as skillfully as u try'n dodge it. [it does look a lil slow, hope they fix that]

 

Classes=easy way out, and its not worth thinking about cause there's a gazillion ways u could go with classes that would be utterly unique. If they do go with classes, i'll be happy with it, but I just don't think its worth arguing about when its unfounded speculation at this point. You might say the same thing about dm, but I'd say dm is more likely than classes at this point.

 

 

Lucky