An Appeal For Better Weapons Effects...

[Kurt Plummer]

No, not the 'guns' perse because I doubt if they will be left alone by the modders for very long but rather:

 

1. Firing Signature Effect.

Everything from muzzle halos to sounds. Any directed energy gun is ultimately just a 'kinetic artwork' in a universe without physics to place it but the visual distortion effects, blast sounds and intervals plus 'mechanical action noises' go a long way towards improving your minds-eye view of how powerful it is.

 

2. Projection Effect.

I just played JKORS where one of the weapons was a new EMP gun that fired projectiles 'through hyperspace'. They hit okay (with force) but the flight effect was like a roman candle from a salad shooter. Dull red comet trail and booooring intensity.

 

Similar embarrassing effects occur when you fire the blaster cannon (four little snow flakes that never seem like they reach the target) or see the big disruptor 'go off' like dust in the furnace vent on the asteroid level of MOTS. Yawwwwwn.

 

Pulse (on off like a conventional laser) weapons, stream weapons (constant feed like a Star Trek TOS Phaser), make weapons 'invisible' but for the flash and after image of travel through the atmosphere. Increase the halo-passage width or bright-flare intensity or even color effect of the actual 'projectile' during flight.

 

But avoid weapon effects which attempt to make funny shapes or dumb big-to-little time of flight 'snow flake in hell's kitchen' within a 2D limited evironment.

 

3. Splash/Pentratiot/Damage Effect.

It would be nice to have an 'EMP' effect from an ion cannon or stun charge. It would be nice if bolts seemed to become slowed or scattered or even dissipated when they hit a full-strength shield. It would be nice if some bolts burned, others scored or punched small holes and others blew out large chunks.

Targets might glow, spin around or simply be vaporized by the part of the beam which intersected them.

 

'Explosive' (mines and detonators) should be especially remade to consider the useage of ENERGY as opposed to conventional flash-bang Nobel Chemistry. A weapon which made a spheroid or disk shaped ripple effect of expanding energy to leave behind an eaten-out chunk of something (ala Terminator time travel effect) would be super.

 

Alternately, have a reverse implosion effect where say a 'Thermal Detonator' might actually work by 'Flashing Over' the linking atoms of oxgen molecules into chain reaction like some of the scientists feared might happen to our atmosphere when the atom bomb went off.

 

Limited radius and 'pretty' (no smoke colors and an even ball-type shape) with a subsequent vacuum pop refractory effect with the player groaning as the air is sucked from his lungs and then thrown back as the bomb sucked up all the air into a bright tennis ball shape and then shattered it outwards again with the shocks reverberating back and forth for awhile after the initial explosion.

 

Power is basically invisibly linked to the mass it holds stable but when we choose to make the Genie pull itself from the bottle for hollywood SFX entertainment reasons, it would be nice if the 'yield' was both more interesting to look at and more long lasting than our own experiences of bombs and what not.

 

 

Kurt Plummer

[BluRR1587246507]

Kurt, you think way too much dude. Let Raven worry about how the guns will turn out.

[WinterJedi1587246519]

Actually, I think we should really express our opinions. Saying things like that, BluRR, sounds like we shouldn't give a darn about what Raven are doing and supress our opinions. Remember, Raven -are- watching after all and I do belive they want us to express out thoughts.

 

Now, good post Kurt, I agree that some of the effects on MotS was.. lacking, but I'm rather sure that Raven will work something out(it can't be worse than those weird stars that the mounted cannon fired). I'd like some kickback, a nice big laserbolt and a nice explosion. I want to feel like I fire a big cannon!

[StephenG]

thats some good thinking kurt.

[Fruitloop]

I think Kurt should work for JKO team.

[Guest Kurgan]

Btw, I know for a fact that the Concussion Rifle in JK had some kickback...

 

Kurgan

[DeathBoLT]

i believe the purpose of the storm trooper's body armor was to protect against debris from the blaster's impact agaisnt walls, etc. i read that somewhere.. i think

 

in the boarding scene in ANH, i believe some rebel troopers fell b/c of catching shrapnel from blaster strikes nearby.. the blaster in JKO oughta sport a *tiny* bit of splash damage maybe?

[cossack1812]

I take back what i said before Kurt, sorry

You put alot of thought and effort into these and i have to agree

I didnt like the muzzle flash from JK1 or DF1 and the physics of the moving bolts was bad, if i shoot you in the chest with a blaster, you are going to die( or have a different death animation) to what you would if a thermal detonater went off at your feet, or i shoved my lightsaber in your back.

And what about the part where Kyle gets up after being hit by a TIE bomber, sheilding or not, you arnt getting up after that

 

Sorry Kurt

[BluRR1587246507]

Yes, Raven may very well be watching everything we say, but will it really make all that much of a difference in the long run? I think not. They have probably finished little things like weapon effects by now, or if not, they already know how they are going to do it. If we really want better weapon effects, we can make the mods ourselves.

[Rancor]

I agree that the effects could really use an overhaul...in fact, doing something entirely different from what we saw in JK would be nice.

 

But you know what? I doubt it will happen. Things that happen in the Star Wars movies/games/books generally end up becoming part of the universe. They set the standard for what a blaster shot looks like, what a bryar pistol shot looks like. I mean, ever noticed that every [almost] weapon effect in the Star Wars universe is basically a line based projectile/bolt? Unfortunately, doing something different would likely be considered "not very Star Wars-y".

[Kurt Plummer]

Super Stormie,

Thanks! Glad you liked that one.

 

Rancor,

One of the things I enjoy is the layering overlap effects of firepower between personal and squad/support level weapons and this is what makes (for instance) the big blaster so disappointing.

 

While I can easily believe that little bits of created reality can become imbedded in the myth of SW like a mosquito forever caught in amber, there are a lot of 'missing links' in the games which seem like they would be better forever forgotten compared to the more solid experiences/descriptions shown in either the films or books.

 

The big tripod pulse blaster that was actually a part of the very first film boarding party (trading card to prove it!:-) but was never really 'scene' until the hangar shot of ESB comes to mind.

 

As originally plotted, when the door blows up and the troopers come charging in to the Tantiv IV Blockade Runner, the cause is this big-a$$ cannon right behind the glowing edges.

 

It reminds me of a sequence in a 'real movie' about a guy (Gene Hackman) going down to Central America to find his reporter son who has been killed or kidnapped by the local government hit squads and ends up witness to a particularly gruesome 'heroic rebel vs. army jeep' gun battle.

 

Latino Rebel comes charging into the shot with a honkin' huge 'AK-47' (little bandit, great big rifle) and flees into a building as a jeep with an M2 .50 caliber machine gunner (still short guy, now _six foot long_ gun) standing on the rear deck comes charging around the corner in 'hot pursuit'.

 

Now that mighty assault rifle looks a bit more pitiful but we still gird ourselves for a climactic duel of the titans.

 

Rebel fires out door yet rather than play the stupid 'duck, shoot back, duck again!' game so typical of Hollyweird, the guy on the jeep simply cuts loose a burst at this BRICK WALL and the bullets raise literal sheets of dust (the wall almost seems to shimmer and move) as they go right on through.

 

You never again see the rebel but rather the jeep simply 'mission accomplished' drives off and the minidrama ends with a tight perspective cutscene past the edge of the doorway where a splash of guts on the interior wall is just visible (and another set of BIG bullet holes in that interior hall wall) as a widening pool of blood expands around the frame.

 

THAT is power and the warlike suddenness of it's application by someone trained in it's use.

 

Minimal corpsism 'goreality' but still _Very Dramatic_ and very 'convincing' as to the level of no-holds-barred brutal violence going on in this tiny little white sand beaches type country.

 

A similar effort with SW would be /super/, because it would explain some previously questionable (who trains the Imps so badly?) things and because it too has never been 'scene', in game, before.

 

Even if you only use 'standard Imperial' red-dart type discharges, a "Whoops what the heck was THAT!?!" chance encounter with a weapon whose bolts were continuing to chase you completely through doors, walls or shipping crates (or rapidly breaking deeper and deeper into literally glowing personal shields) _after you had left the line of sight_, would make a BIG 'visual difference' to the way the game played out.

 

And how much you hated the slaughter-anything-in-sight Storm Troopers.

 

Because one little runin with the equivalent of a 'heavy machine gun' and now you **know** that not only have they the will but the MEANS to achieve this slaughter and are presumeably rendered wiser than to go nose to muzzle with something that is milspec designed to Kill Very Big Things, In Very Great Numbers.

 

A weapon infinitely more powerful than your personal sidearm, though the 'shape of death' is more or less the same.

 

And a weapon you might go a LONG ways 'around' to avoid.

 

Given the persistent environmental effects of the sabre (glow-lasting cuts etc.) this is the kind of 'effect' that I hope Raven will consider because it shows that while the Imps are moronic as individuals, as a heavy support fire _team_, sweeping down to invade or punish, they are /lethal/ pack hunters.

 

 

Kurt Plummer

[ReAcToR]

Btw, I know for a fact that the Concussion Rifle in JK had some kickback...

 

Both the Concussion Rifle and the Rail Detonator had kickback, although the Concussion Rifle kickback was easier to notice.

[acdcfanbill]

well, it is possible to survive a laserblast from something like a tie bomber... as par the tie fighter game, your cannons are based on how much power is in them, the less energy, the less power/force the bolt strikes with, the first energy level doesnt do much for damage... but at full power you take stuff out like nothin... i wonder if maybe the tie pilot had stupidly wasted all his laser power, bullseye-ing passerbys on nar shaddaa, and forgot to recharge, then when he got to kyle, he only had one low power shot left... interesting theory, no?

[Denise]

Well, you never actually see the bolts HIT Kyle, and with a starfighter's lasers I imagine it's hard to hit some little guy standing on a catwalk. No, we see the fighter pop up, rattle off several bursts, switch to see the upper half of Kyle as if he's just hit the deck, and then switch back to the TIE getting blown away. It could have been a warning shot or sheer inaccuracy. **shrugs**

[Sifl]

Originally posted by Rancor:

<STRONG>I agree that the effects could really use an overhaul...in fact, doing something entirely different from what we saw in JK would be nice.</STRONG>

 

UGH, i totally agree. JK was a great game, but, to be honest, it was NOT perfect. The graphics were outdated even in it's time, I would hope they would totally re-imagine some of the weapons or at least their effects. I would hate to see the Quake 3 engine wasted on 1997-era effects!

 

And the weapons themselves were kinda lacking, too, not much variety, and some of the fire modes were just plain awkward.

 

The force powers, I felt, too, were also pretty much useless in combat (for the most part). I don't know if it's because you had to bind 27 keys to use the powers or because using a power was just cumbersome (could never tell how high a force jump was gonna take me, had to do silly force pull targeting, etc,- blech)

 

Hopefully Raven and LucasArts are actually making the game fun, not just porting JK to Quake3. Honestly, I don't think they would do that- that would just be idiotic. I trust them, LucasArts and Raven have consistently made good, fun games, I doubt they'd do something as stupid as you're suggesting, Rancor (no offense) - ruin the graphics & gameplay just to be consistent!

 

As a side note, Kurt, I suspect that you have some interesting things to say in your posts, but the language is quite abstract and awkward, very difficult to read... no offense, really, just a bit frustrating and unclear? Not always, but the thread-opener post was particularly fragmentary... ?

 

 

Sifl

 

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Sifl ]

[SlowbieOne]

Sifl: The force powers, I felt, too, were also pretty much useless in combat (for the most part).

 

While I will say Force Blind and Force Throw were rather useless, the others were far from it.

 

I don't know if it's because you had to bind 27 keys to use the powers or because using a power was just cumbersome (could never tell how high a force jump was gonna take me, had to do silly force pull targeting, etc,- blech)

 

 

First, there were only 14 powers total (17 in MotS), so I'm confused where you got the number 27. I actually hope that they have around 20 powers. I love the variety, it adds new dimensions to the game. Powers to bind to keys? Bring em on, I don't mind binding 20 keys. Not to mention you probably wouldnt even use 10 of them in a match.

 

Second, once I got used to it, I had no problems judging the jump. What would you suggest if it's not done this way?

 

Lastly, silly Force Pull targeting? I honestly can't think of a better way it could be done. For instance, if you could pull someone by just looking in their direction and pressing the button, what kind of skills would that invole? Probably next to none. But with the targeting, there is actually some skill involved. It's the kind of thing that can separate the good gamers from the bad in my opinion.

[Kurt Plummer]

I would suggest that any combat power that cannot be directed (with 'self guided accuracy') against multiple opponents is useless.

 

And that if are required to waste time waggling your fingers and twisting your wrist so that you cannot use a lightsabre to block with a particular 'power' then that too is at least questionable.

 

OTOH, Force Persuasion didn't work as it should have in JK simply because there was SO little personal interaction/roleplaying.

 

I rather liked it all the same because you got total invisibility (vs. the MOTS 'robots can see you' crap) but it was overpowering as an ability.

 

In the new game there is an indication that you will use persuasion as intended: Command Telepathy to interrogate and compel actions from select NPC characters. Possibly even to read their minds (as Jerec did to the old Jedi).

 

If that's so then 'Blind' could perhaps make a comeback to be used as it was intended to either physically dazzle the retinas or more likely shut down the optic nerve for awhile in which case you only need make it an _area effect_ mechanism (hold down key and gradually add victims?) to again make it a useful tool.

 

I would of course make Jedi simply invulnerable to the manipulation (you turn off, I turn right back on) without prejudice but it would also add a least a moments tension because you wouldn't be able to do unto others until you saw them whereas (JK1) Persuasion was again more like a constant cloak of visual stealth.

 

Assuming they can still 'fire wildly' Force Blind would also still impart some risk as you would have to move out of their zone of expectation (muzzle planes) while still being under at least marginal threat from a random bolt.

 

As for the power grouping, I couldn't agree more.

 

Combining at least the 'telekinetics' factors into a lift/push/pull/manipulate (selector) grouping would let you do things like jump and flip or lift and strangle or trip and shove on behind.

 

All based on your inherent Force Power strength at the moment and the way you (delicately!) double keyed combinations.

 

It could also allow some rather more widespread environmental interactions with multiple effect options such as scattering available objects to attack everyone vs. concentrating to dogpile just a single opponent.

 

Or lifting an entire spaceship to say move it into a cave and out of sight of overhead observation from orbit.

 

Neat Stuff where you select tactics and then battle-piano 'play' them dextrously or explore your capability to interact with your surroundings, _using your brains_ for future-strategic consequence adjustment as opposed to just 'more-gore-immediately'.

 

 

Kurt Plummer

[Sifl]

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:

<STRONG>First, there were only 14 powers total (17 in MotS), so I'm confused where you got the number 27.</STRONG>

 

Sorry, it was meant as a hyperbole, guess that wasn't clear. Basically, my point was that there were too many to be useful in combat- you can't have 17 buttons at your fingertips for quick and easy access, just not practical.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for variety and lots of options, but 20 force powers is just too much for a fast-paced action game. Now if it were a slower, more strategic shooter or an RPG, more force powers would be great. But in an action game I want to be able to instintively hit the right key at the right time and not have to choose between more than, say... 6 or so powers. I'd reather have 6 really well-done, useful powers than 6 semi-useful powers mixed in with 14 interesting but ultimately useless powers. There's a temptation to say that more is always better and how dare you not have everything you possibly can- but this comes from a kind of hording attitude, not from a concern about how fun the game is to play.

 

 

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:

<STRONG>Second, once I got used to it, I had no problems judging the jump. What would you suggest if it's not done this way? </STRONG>

 

I don't know, maybe have some graphical indicator either in the world or on the screen that shows you how high the jump will take you? Or make it more like flying/levitation rather than a catapulting-style jump? When Darth used it in RotJ, it looked a lot more like flying than a jump!

 

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:

<STRONG>Lastly, silly Force Pull targeting? I honestly can't think of a better way it could be done. For instance, if you could pull someone by just looking in their direction and pressing the button, what kind of skills would that invole? Probably next to none. But with the targeting, there is actually some skill involved. It's the kind of thing that can separate the good gamers from the bad in my opinion.</STRONG>

 

Sorry, but when you're fighting 10 guys and they're all moving, having to hold down the force button while avoiding getting killed and trying to keep it targeted on en enemy is inconvenient. Sure, it may require skill, but, again, that's not neccessarily a good thing for an action game. Just a difference of opinion here on what kind of game the two of us would like JK2 to be, that's all.

[Jedi Howell1587246488]

I agree w/ most of what sifl says; but on the subject of keys:

 

I managed JK's f_powers just fine. I had the powers bound to the numpad, mouse wheel for secondary, left-click for primary, and right for jump, while using the arrow keys to move. I also used the INS, DEL, END, HOME, PGUP, and PGDN keys for some of the powers and bacta, field light and IR...

 

jh

[SlowbieOne]

you can't have 17 buttons at your fingertips for quick and easy access, just not practical

 

Au Contraire! Most keyboards have around 50 keys or so. Once you develop a key setup that you can adapt to, 17 keys become no problem. I guess it's not for everybody though.

 

I don't know, maybe have some graphical indicator either in the world or on the screen that shows you how high the jump will take you?

 

Well, it could definatley work. As long as the gauge wouldn't interfere with gameplay. I would still prefer the old way, but and option for a gauge would definatley help gamers like you

[Rancor]

Au Contraire! Most keyboards have around 50 keys or so. Once you develop a key setup that you can adapt to, 17 keys become no problem. I guess it's not for everybody though.

 

Yeah, I would agree that it's not for everyone...myself included. For me, anything more than 10 keys ( not including mouse buttons ) is getting dangerously close to having a typing tutor feel--I can't say that that is a good thing. Console games tend to get around this issue, not only because they have to, but perhaps also because it enhances gameplay to have a simplified interface. It doesn't mean you have to sacrifice complexity of game play at all....having multi-purpose buttons that behave in a context sensitive way is a cool thing in my mind.

 

Well, it could definatley work. As long as the gauge wouldn't interfere with gameplay. I would still prefer the old way, but and option for a gauge would definatley help gamers like you

 

I dunno, why is that console games like Metroid and the newer Castlevania games have a very cool approach to jumping that PC games haven't caught onto? In those games, you don't have to charge up a jump, you just press jump to initiate the jump, then let go of the jump key to actually stop the jump. No amount of pre-judging is involved at all. No visual indicator is required. I think there are other ways to add complexity and interest to a game...without having to resort to forcing a player to learn something as basic as jumping.

 

Or make it more like flying/levitation rather than a catapulting-style jump? When Darth used it in RotJ, it looked a lot more like flying than a jump!

 

Agreed. Watch the movie and you will see that he doesn't jump in the conventional sense at all.

 

But in an action game I want to be able to instintively hit the right key at the right time and not have to choose between more than, say... 6 or so powers. I'd reather have 6 really well-done, useful powers than 6 semi-useful powers mixed in with 14 interesting but ultimately useless powers. There's a temptation to say that more is always better...

 

I'd agree. I'd much rather see 6 really well-done powers and have lots of different and interesting ways to use those powers to interact with the world and the enemies that populate it. More for the sake of more is pretty lame.

 

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Rancor ]

[Sifl]

Originally posted by Jedi Howell:

<STRONG>I agree w/ most of what sifl says; but on the subject of keys:

 

I managed JK's f_powers just fine. I had the powers bound to the numpad, mouse wheel for secondary, left-click for primary, and right for jump, while using the arrow keys to move. I also used the INS, DEL, END, HOME, PGUP, and PGDN keys for some of the powers and bacta, field light and IR...

 

jh</STRONG>

 

Sounds identical to my keyboard binding. I had no problem binding them all, I just felt there were too many ineffectual/inconvenient powers for most combat situations, but that's just me.

[Sifl]

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:

<STRONG>Au Contraire! Most keyboards have around 50 keys or so. Once you develop a key setup that you can adapt to, 17 keys become no problem. I guess it's not for everybody though. </STRONG>

 

Actually the standard is 104, so why not have 50 force powers, by this logic? The limit isn't really the number of keys but how many force powers are actually useful and fun in combat.

 

Originally posted by SlowbieOne:

<STRONG>Well, it could definatley work. As long as the gauge wouldn't interfere with gameplay. I would still prefer the old way, but and option for a gauge would definatley help gamers like you</STRONG>

 

Well, I think the "flying" option would be the most dynamic and convenient. If you had to hold down your jump button and guess where you were going to land while your opponent just quickly, instantly and easily flew up to where he needed to go, which would you rather? I think you'd find the old, slow way to be a deficit. But I guess the older, clunkier, slower way is definitely better for players like you who might not be able to handle a faster paced game... (j/k, just a little 'tude payback there).

 

Anyway, like I said, it's all personal preference. In the end, we'll get what LucasArts and Raven prefers.

[SlowbieOne]

But I guess the older, clunkier, slower way is definitely better for players like you who might not be able to handle a faster paced game... (j/k, just a little 'tude payback there).

 

Don't let my name fool ya,LOL.

 

Anyway, thats the whole reason I want more powers and why I don't mind more buttons, because IDO handle fast paced games quite well.