Reasons why the Lightsaber Needs to be Made Respectable

[Luck]

Have u guys even considered the fact that this is a client server environment and not peer to peer like JK?

 

Once u get by the idea that the saber can block everything to a fair to somewhat poor degree, u gotta realize, u don't have to lead people.

 

u aren't going to have to chase people around and get behind their ghosts so it won't be absurdly impossible to hit someone with yer saber. It'll be much more like quake 1 and the axe, except even better because of area specific damage.

 

U'll just have to swing at them and not around them behind them or anything else. The saber as it was in JK in a client/server environment is already a hugely advantageous weapon.

 

I like the idea of having the saber being a weapon u can rely upon instead of a last ditch effort when yer out of ammo, but it really doesn't need to be tweaked all *that* much.

 

The saber should be on par with every other weapon in the game, but for the most part, if yer going for that vanilla flavor of q3, EVERY OTHER weapon should be on par with THE SABER. otherwise folks will be utterly annoyed with the guns in the game.

 

It'll make for a very unique game if yer already armed to the teeth upon spawn, but it'll actually be fairly true to the way JK is played nowadays. U'll have a chance and won't get gibbed on spawn.

 

at the same time, the saber shouldn't be "safe". it should take a considerable ammount of skill to keep yerself from getting shot to death with the darker flavors on the vanilla scale. It should be *possible* but not *easy* to come out of any situation without having gotten completely fried.

 

should be kind of a hot potatoe situation. A lil like tennis. They shoot an area effect weapon at u, u lunge for the projectile before it can explode and vape it. u can do that mebe once or twice before they nail u, but u should have a chance to whack whatever it is thats coming at u out of the air.

 

that'd be good balance for the saber, and lend itself towards a good sized skill curve that'd add to replayability.

 

basically, 1 mebe 2 out of 5 times u went up against a big gun with just yer saber u'd get lucky and nail the lil explosive or the beam or whatever it is.

 

Lucky

[Luck]

And a few other things; figured i'd split this up a bit.

 

The plasma gun would be pretty nifty as the milk chocolate gun fer JK2, however, don't count the conc out. I think i have a pretty good idea for how u could use it.

 

Have the conc do a heck of a lot less damage, but give it a heck of a lot more kick. Make it the rail/mine/conc/rocket/etc/adnauseum/er's dream.

 

Essentially make it a gun that shoots u around like a madman, and other people as well. Concussive, non damaging force. Mebe have the primary shot as it is now be the 2ndary shot, and have its primary function shooting super fast bits o metal like the 'rail' gun does in q3.

 

One way would be like plugging up a hose till it pops whatever is in it out, the other way would just be leting the hose run willy nilly.

 

JK has prolly the best and most challenging system of weapon jumping ive ever seen or played. Its better'n quake, better than anything. One conc jump is essentially the same distance as one strafe jump with speed, one rail jump is the same as one force jump. Its fun, difficult, and adds a huge chunk to the skill curve, which in turn would add to the replayability yada yada yada..

 

If yer lookin for an equivalent in the gaming world today, think of this revised conc as a cross between that stoopid pump gun in ut and a grapple hook. cept without the ability to gib.

 

yar!!

 

 

Lucky

[KillerBee]

Wilhuf : I don't see the point of listing an already confirmed, and Demostrated feature, in a list of Suggested Improvements. Its as bad as discussing if a quake 3 based game will have dedicated servers, its a 99.9999999% certainty. thats all I was saying their.. its important, but its not something we have suggested..

 

Krayt Tion:

yeah physics can help, but its definitly not more important then fun and balance

and no I cant see a problem in using the force to deflect grenades and rails. (blasters and conks yes)

but I do find problems wif using the sabre.. it would just cause it to explode very close to you.. their is no real way round this..

but if it did add to gameplay I wouldnt be a major problem.. but throw seems the logical way..

 

And agreed Balance is EXTREMELY important..

the disbalance between light and dark in jk was very very very irritating.. in ff sabs being light was near usless, and in ff guns, lighties using pull and absorb, meant beating lighties of equal skill was impossible. you could only beat lesser lighties..

 

As for the conky, the conky was imo a major problem for nf guns, and the sabre. although in ff a gunner could be beaten by a sabrest, tho usually the sabrest had to be better..

however dumping the conky imho would be a mistake, it needs redesigning, I think making it similar to the q3 railgun a instant hit pin point weapon, with lower damage then a blaster, so that in a straight fight a blaster wins, but with the advantage of the jedi having no protection against it except utilising the force, and its slowish reload time. maybe as sugested earlier (just rehashing ideas ive said before) a nice large force but little damage 2ndry.. but if it needs cutting to get a jedi v nfer balance hey..

 

As for canon, well out side the movies I really don't like the books for canon... I think of the weapons in jk to be more canon then books, but thats me.. and I dont really care what they are called..

a plasma gun sounds good tho.. something like the one out of SotE that IG88 fires at you? that would be good..

tho I would still love the conk their for its secondry fire..

a nice solid Plasma gun, used similarly to the pg out of q3, for a medium close weapon. would be good tho.. a few new weapons, but I would rather keep the DF weapons for the most part tbh.. it never bothered me, thousands of worlds, thousands of technologies, thousands of weapons, mostly unheard of. it added extra depth to the sw uni, a few that link to the film, some that extend it. a nice blend imho

 

"Although I really like the DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle's looks. Looks like it could do real damage (looks sorta like the WW-II German MG-42, probably based on it. Hmm a machinegun converted to a rifle?)."

 

prolly is one, wif some bits welded on to techify it..

 

However I think we are missing a key bit of info (well it has been mentioned) to really talk about balance on a whole for the game

 

class based

or

straight dm

 

Achieving balance being totally different in each case.. if everyones a jedi, then the weapons do all need to be balanced.. as lucky says.. no weapon should be all powerfull

 

If its class based, then the jedi can only use the sabre and force, so it needs to be balanced such.. in a jk a force user without speed jump or pull, and just seeing and grip, could best an nf gunner on a tightish map.

 

on oasis with its open space, he would be in problems, but with pull he would certainly be winning 90% of the time..

the advantages of seeing + map are quite incredible.. it means you always meet on your terms.

[Wilhuf]

In that case, Bee I should remove Force Throw, better lightsaber animations, force pull, improved network code (already removed that from the list, actually), automatic blocking, location based damage, more lightsaber attack moves/combinations, and customizable gameplay settings. All of those have made their way into the game. No point in discussing those right?

[KillerBee]

I didnt say it shouldnt be discussed.. its just not really an suggested improvement.. if its already been confirmed..

with the exception of improved graphics, and server config options(which are really quite obvious, and the config options will 99% exist cause of the q3 engine)

all the rest have room for improvement or specific details havent been released

 

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: KillerBee ]

[Tap[RR]]

Bah, the conc SHOULD be deflectable, everything execpt explosives like the rail gun, the saber should be able to deflect ALL energy based weapons. Now dont give me that "conc is air" crap. It should and can be deflected, "the turrent conc shots can be deflected" why not the conc bolts itself? Like ive said before, the saber should at least have a chance (be able to deflect and such). A jedi doesnt rely on dodging fire, he rely's on defensive blocking to redirect the fire back at the shooter.

[Luck]

the conc is air =P

 

those turret shots were both different 3do's and different from the conc.

[SlowbieOne]

I think it's safe to say that the conc will be in JKO since it was in Dark Forces and Jedi Knight. This time around it seems as though they will make the saber the best weapon(having short range and long range abilities). It was too easy to kill a saberist with a conc head on in JK. They NEED to make the conc shots deflectable, but they should be difficult to master blocking them.

[Tap[RR]]

I agree slowbie. And if the conc is air then why should it cause WAAAAAAY more damage than an explosive rail? Shouldnt air push you into a wall? Hmmm and the blaster bolts are made from heated gas (almost the same density as air SHOCKING) and releases as a hella hot bolt, which can be deflected by the saber. So why not the conc bolts? ( i say bolts because the conc fires and is pretty much like a huge blaster bolt painted blue )

[Luck]

not really.

 

I say don't sacrifice the integrity of the conc, just balance it better. Conc shoots concussive force, does not shoot energy.

 

Should not be blockable, its not a bolt, its a boom.

 

superheated gas=same density as air my ass, guess u never took chemistry.

 

Should change the power of the conc and not its basic properties.

 

Lucky

[DeathBoLT]

slowbie, having long range abilities doesn't actually mean it will be a good long range weapon. I wouldn't give up my saber for a second against a good gunner - the only times I'd give it up if I had a sure shot mid to close range - any other situation and you're suddenly unable to block for a few secs against a enemy who carries a heavy hitting gun and probably evaded your saber when he saw it coming a mile away.

 

and they probably wont include conc if they can't balance well enough to give more power to the saber so don't think its safe to assume that conc will be in JK yet.

[GonkH8er]

since we're talking about guns now not sabers in this thread which is by far the longest we've had, what do you guys think about a sniper rifle? obiwan was going to have one. would you consider that a substitute for the conc?

[SlowbieOne]

I can can understand both Lucky and Eve, but this isn't chemistry, it's a game. Would you like to have the advantage with the conc? Or would you like it to be a fair fight no matter what weapon? If most people seem to need an advantage, then I pray they replace the conc with something else.

[Wilhuf]

The Jedi Knight Concussion rifle could double (somewhat) as a sniper rifle, in secondary fire. So in that regard, yes a sniper rifle could replace that function. And seeing how a sniper rifle could be almost as lethal as a Concussion rifle, it could play as the 'big gun' that everyone vies for.

 

But as far as the Concussion Rifle primary fire role goes, (heavy long range weapon with splash) I don't think a sniper rifle would be a suitable replacement.

 

Mostly because the 'feeling' of the sniper rifle just wouldn't replace the Concussion Rifle's (assuming that the Jedi Outcast sniper rifle is somehow similar to other sniper rifles in other FPS games). The Concussion Rifle is not a very subtle weapon. Large explosion, risk of splashing the user, lots of noise, lots of shooting. Very fun to use. The sniper rifle probably won't have that kind of feel (no or very small explosions, no risk of harming the user, much less noise, less shooting, at least certainly not for splashing a target).

 

Seeing how I and other gamers like explosions, laser blasts and effects, I'd rather see some kind of immolating or explosive splash weapon as the 'top gun,' rather than a sniper rifle. Although it would be great fun to also have a sniper rifle in addition to the Concussion Rifle (or whatever weapon it ends up as). Should make for great gunner duels.

 

Hopefully Jedi Outcast will feature more than just two top weapons (e.g., Rail Detonator and Concussion Rifle) that dominate the gun battle scene.

 

I thought I read that Jedi Outcast was confirmed with a dedicated sniper rifle but I may be confusing that with reports on a scoped standard blaster rifle which acts as a sniper weapon in secondary fire. Anyone have info on this?

[Syndrix]

I think I read the sniper rifle is secondary mode for the ST rifle, not a dedicated gun of its own. I could be wrong, and hopefully I am, because I would much rather see a dedicated sniper. Of course if Raven do it well I dont mind either way.

 

Assuming the coc is going to be in JK2 just because it was in DF and JK is, IMO, quite unfounded. That doesnt mean it will be, plenty of guns have disappeared in between sequel games.

 

Also I dont see why everyone is crying "save the conc" (well I do, but you know what I mean), no matter what, there is obviously, going to be a powerful gun. If it isnt the conc, so be it, the conc was OK but it wasnt a brilliant one of a kind gun that should always be around. If another weapon takes its position, whats the difference. Chances are if it re-appears it will be "tweaked", in some games guns have actually totally changed in function from original to sequel.

 

Also, if they decided they had to make massive modifications for the sake of, yes thats correct balance, would you want to see changed. Perhaps just a whole new weapon is in order, yeah it was cool, the noise it made and the explosion of air you saw. But you can't, logically, block air and either you must be able to block it (or partially block it) or its splash radius drastically reduced. But if you reduce the splash radius too much you may unbalance the game in the opposite way, that and ever gunner would whinge. I want an exciting gun too, but I dont want one that dominates everything else like JK.

 

There also must be a certain balance between the guns themselves. Everyone wanted the conc (and rail) in JK. The sniper rifle (or ST rifle with scope?) will go part of the way, because lots of people like playing the sniper. But the lower order guns have to have their own usefulness, to a certain extent because they are lower after all.

 

 

basically, 1 mebe 2 out of 5 times u went up against a big gun with just yer saber u'd get lucky and nail the lil explosive or the beam or whatever it is.

 

I'd also like to point out that really isnt balance. Balance would be if a saberist had just as much chance to intercept it as the gunner did of getting splash damage against the saberist. That way its skill on the behalf of poth parties, not just the saberist who has to be better than the gunner to come out on top.

 

The saber should have a good sized skill curve, true, but I like to state it shouldnt be a skill curve based against the powerful guns themselves, but against learning how to use the saber itself, with a little part how to use it against the powerful guns (but not to hard to learn).

This was the problem in JK, in FF a saberist could beat a gunner but as killer bee said, the saberist had to be better. Why, by default, should the gunner have the advantage?

 

[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

[KillerBee]

the conky can be made balance in nicely with the sabre without the need for it to be blockable.

some weapon should be able to breach the sabre defences.. imho, but it should be not that damaging. The secondry fire conk.. with the primary fire designed for weapon jumps and pushing people about could balance in fine, if it does lower damage per second then a blaster pistol(due to low fire rate) which would make it very poor v anyone other then a jedi.

[DeathBoLT]

it looks like its pretty easy to lose your grip on your saber.. would too much weapon damage knock it out of your hand or does loss of your saber only occur when your injured by a force assault?

 

btw, killerbee's conc idea is pretty good

[Tap[RR]]

Well heres how i see it, you make the conc unblockable, and EVERY fricken one will be using it, due to its unstopable fire. I mean come on, its just gonna make the conc "the gun to use against a jedi" all over again, and thats what will make the game feel like the same old jk. You could make the conc balanced and blockable if you make it were a jedi could block conc shots to a CERTAIN extent. ( Like a threshold and block to a certain extend before giving into the powerful fire )

 

--==Edit--==

 

Omg eve thats what i was thinking, heh posted about the same time.

 

[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: Tap[RR] ]

[Guest Vagabond]

Like it or not, there must be a Jedi Killer weapon, otherwise all other classes will be unable to stop the Jedi (again, assuming MP has class-based combat). MotS had a Jedi Killer weapon in the carbonite gun - the weapon of choice for bounty hunters, and it was quite effective, despite whinning from a few circles.

 

All this talk of every weapon being blockable is absurd. If JKII had a flame thrower, you'd have people arguing that fire should be blockable too. Look, everyone, we all like Jedis, but there simply must be a way of effectively attacking a Jedi with a weapon. If there's not, then this game will be dead on arrival, with regard to MP.

[Wilhuf]

Yes, talk of blocking all weapons is absurd. Blocking a flamethrower would be strange. And finding a flamethrower in the Star Wars galaxy would be almost as strange.

 

What is also absurd is when the Lightsaberist is dead before getting within striking range of the gunner because he doesn't have adequate defense. Not because of anything the gamer did, but because the game will not let him deflect heavy weapons fire.

 

It is a matter of degree. I am not proposing 100% blocking all of the time. Maybe some here are, I don't know, but I don't agree with the concept. As I've said several times, a certain proportion of rounds would have to hit the target, even if they are blockable.

 

The perception here seems to be that blocking would somehow deflect a huge portion of incoming fire. Several people have said that heavy weapons saber blocking would basically be an unfair inpenetrable shield. Why?

 

It's unlikely, if Raven did implement heavy weapons blocking, that a Jedi could block even 75% of incoming heavy fire. If they incorporated 'acquistion time,' the proportion would drop even further.

 

Also, splash shouldn't be blockable. No splash blocking practically guarantees the saberist will still have a very difficult time against the gunner who knows how to lead the target.

[Syndrix]

Remember there will probably be a "rocket launcher", even if it isnt the rail detornator. This type of weapon will not be blockable at all. Even if Raven did include the ability to "steer" the "rockets" away with force push, its not automatic and you would have to see incoming fire in plenty time.

 

Oh and I dont think every weapon should be totally blockable by the saber either.

 

Also, DeathBoLT, it was said by the shacknews person that if you threw your saber at an enemy saberist he would knock it out of the air. Is this what you are refering to about losing your saber.

 

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

[Guest Krayt Tion]

Originally posted by Vagabond:

<STRONG>Like it or not, there must be a Jedi Killer weapon, otherwise all other classes will be unable to stop the Jedi (again, assuming MP has class-based combat). MotS had a Jedi Killer weapon in the carbonite gun - the weapon of choice for bounty hunters, and it was quite effective, despite whinning from a few circles.</STRONG>

 

While I understand your ultimate goal of balance in this matter I don't know if I would heavily favor a weapon to end all weapons as far as Jedi are concerned, a "Jedi Killer" weapon so to speak, even if it is short range like the Carb gun.

 

This concern is mostly founded on the possible scenario that they would stick in a Jedi Killer type weapon as kind of a cheap fix in order to disregard the effectiveness of all other weapons against the Jedi. Kind of like 'Well, we won't have to worry about making the other stuff work too well against Jedi so long as we have this one gun that works really well against them.' Don't get me wrong, feel free to include a gun that is better then most against killing Jedi. But not so good that it does not feel feasible for most to even use another weapon against the Jedi, lest they get slaughtered. The game will be more exciting imo the more weapons have at least some effect on the Jedi and are not completely blockable. This allows for more variety in gameplay and strategies, which is almost always fun in an FPS, imo.

 

Originally posted by Vagabond:

<STRONG>All this talk of every weapon being blockable is absurd. If JKII had a flame thrower, you'd have people arguing that fire should be blockable too. Look, everyone, we all like Jedis, but there simply must be a way of effectively attacking a Jedi with a weapon. If there's not, then this game will be dead on arrival, with regard to MP.</STRONG>

 

I agree on the principle based around this concept, I'm just thinking of it in terms of damage- as in many shots can be blocked and deflected by Jedi, many back in the direction of the sender, but the Jedi will still take damage from the splash or what have you while he is redirecting the shot. That way the Jedi still gets hurt and therefore can be killed by certain weapons but at the same time if he is backed into a corner he now has a bit better defense then he did in JK- defense which I think is needed. This is illustrated more in depth in my last post where the BlasTech DLT-20A Pulse Cannon was mentioned. To bring your first quote back into dicussion, I think they should give something to gunners like the Golan Arms FCI Flechette Launcher, which was also dicussed in my last post. Most of the hundreds of sharp flechettes from the projectile would not be blockable and would hit the Jedi. This very much could be your "Jedi Killer" weapon but with the damage dealt by it toned down a bit for right balance.

[Boba Jim]

1.Saber blocking should require some skill from the player and not be automatic.

 

2.A heavy weapon or two should be unblockable.

 

Therefore...

 

1.A poorly skilled Jedi could be shot by the weakest lazer weapon.

 

2.An experienced Jedi should know to avoid head on attacks when his opponent has a heavy weapon.

 

What's the big deal? Differing from the above would make stormtroopers and most non-jedi players pretty pointless. They'd just get hacked by Jedi constantly and the Jedi player would get bored pretty quick. If a Jedi is vunerable to certain weapons or modes of attack you don't have a problem, you have a game.

 

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Gonk Droid ]

[Guest Kettch]

JKII isn't a role-playing game so, why should there be a dumb JK percentage-saber-auto-blocking-system?????

 

The power of the Jedi's in JKII should depend on the PLAYERS ability, not on the computer or luck!

[KillerBee]

well if its class based if no one can beat a jedi, everyones going to be a bloomin jedi.

as I said the weapons going to be vastly inferior to blasters. scissors, paper, stone, jedi beats blasters, blasters beat conky, conky beats jedi. nice simple balance.

wif out any of the options becoming inferior, good for team play.

and if its not class based, then its right weapon right job time.. "everyones going to use a jedi killer weapon " rubbish if they are going to get fried by a bloke with a ST rifle..

And a rail style weapon isn't that easy to use..

 

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: KillerBee ]