Force powers in JO

[Wilhuf]

Although I prefer MotS, I still vote for the separation of light and dark powers for Jedi Outcast.

 

In the original Jedi Knight, the division of 'light' and 'dark' forces is a division of offensive and defensive powers. The issue of using the same tool to do good and bad is irrelevent. And yes the motive, intentions, and outcomes make all the difference when determining whether a tool is 'good' or 'bad.' Foregoing certain activities fits the 'Jedi Code' quite well (abstinence, for example). The entire plot of Jedi Knight was based on 'good' v. 'evil' : do you capture the valley of the jedi for yourself, or do you rescue it from dark exploit?

 

In Jedi Knight you weren't penalized for slashing the hapless stormtrooper, even if you were a lightsider. Why? Becuase 1. you are defending yourself from murdering stormies, 2. you are liberating the Valley of the Jedi, and 3. the stormies are the badguys and deserve to die!

 

Moreover, you were penalized for killing civilians. Why? 1. It doesn't advance the mission objective. 2. the civilians are innocent and don't deserve to die 3. you are defending them from the yoke of Imperial tyranny. The lines between good and evil were pretty clear in Jedi Knight.

 

Actually there really is something 'good' about playing defensively. And there is something 'bad' about playing offensively. The former is always in self defense, justified. The latter is always self serving. In theory anway.

 

But who am I kidding, this is just a game.

 

Moral questions, aside, in Jedi Knight, light and dark powers are really just a means of defining play style. Do you tend to play with offensive tools, or do you use defensive abilities to assist you in combat?

 

The division forces requires the gamer to make tough decisions. MotS did not. In MotS, it was a simple matter of choosing any powers to maximize both your offensive and defensive power. (e.g. grab some protection, some destruction, some grip, and some absorb, and you're on your way). There were absolutely no risks in your force selection.

 

Now, it's not so easy if you divide force powers into light and dark. If you want to grip, you're not getting protection. If you want to absorb, you're not getting lightning. Some may call this 'limitations.' Options, options, options,' we've all said. Yet without costs and tradeoffs, it can be pretty dull. I think tradeoffs make for more interesting gameplay.

[Vagabond]

Wilhuf,

 

...In MotS, it was a simple matter of choosing any powers to maximize both your offensive and defensive power...

 

Not true, my friend. When creating a level-8 Jedi in MotS, you could choose, for lack of better terms, 2 of 4 powers from each from the Red, Blue, and Yellow groups, and 4 of 5 powers from the green group. So you did have to make choices, not select any powers your heart desired.

 

Yes, it is a game, but I don't see how a Dark Jedi/Sith would follow any arbitrary rules requiring him to not use a so-called Light power. I don't even buy into vanilla Jedis using the Force in non-lethal ways. If they're going to kill people with their lightsabers, then who cares whether you use a lightsaber or the Force to do it? Maybe you kill the evil enemy with Force Grip, maybe you cause a ton of boulders to fall down on him, or maybe you just Force Blind him and he falls off a cliff and dies. Whether you directly or indirectly set a series of events in motion which results in someone's death is irrelevant because the outcome is the same.

 

Let's not forget here, this game focuses on activities that apparently rarely occur in the world of Star Wars - Jedi Combat, and this is likely an arguable point. What isn't arguable is that JKII will have weapons and Force powers.

 

Weapons are for killing, especially the Jedi's signature weapon, the lightsaber. The lightsaber is worse than Force Grip or Chain Lightning, or even the BlasTech DL-44. At least when you die from a blaster, Force Grip, or Chain Lightning your body is typically still in tact. How is dismemberment somehow Light, while Force Grip isn't?

 

Saying that a Jedi can't use the Force offensively, is like saying a Jedi can't use his lightsaber offensively, but rather only defensively to block and parry attacks. Clearly, that isn't the case.

 

Sorry, but I haven't seen an argument for separating the Force powers that makes any sense.

[Wilhuf]

But Yoda says the light side uses the force 'in defense, never for attack.' So, there is already canon basis for separating 'dark' and 'light' sides of the force. Light is defensive, dark is offensive. Simple as that.

 

In MotS you could use light and dark powers together.

 

If we stick to the films, there would be no division between light and dark. But if we wanted good gameplay we would have a division. Choices, but with tradeoffs.

[Vagabond]

A Jedi needs to use the Force to properly wield a lightsaber without killing oneself. Given that, Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan attacked Darth Maul first at Theed, Obi-Wan attacked Darth Vader first on the Death Star, Luke attacked Darth Vader first at Bespin, and Luke attacked Darth Vader first on the 2nd Death Star.

 

So in truth the Jedi don't seem to be sticking to that little axiom of Yoda's. From what we see of the film canon, there is more evidence that Jedi do attack first, when they know that their opponent is evil.

 

It is clear that the divisions on this issue are deep and little can be said to convince one camp or the other. What we need is this:

 

Multiplayer Options to play with (1) Segregated Force Powers, or (2) Combined Force Powers. Who's with me?

[Nemios]

I absolutely agree that the Force is one and only how you use it makes you light or dark. But JK is a game. Let's say that lightning is a dark expression of your use of the Force. So a light Jedi shouldn't use the Force like that (you may disagree, I know). So how someone who claims to be light can use lightning? It would be a sorta of "cheating".

But we all want many options and few limitations, so I hope JKO will have lots of neutral powers not too "sided" (tipically light or tipically dark, ex. grip stops and maybe damage you A LITTLE but don't nearly kills) and a few exclusive expression of the Force that mark you as a light Jedi or a dark Jedi. Do you want to be known as a honorable light Jedi in the community? You have to left out something. Do you want to be known as a mercyless dark Jedi? Then the fact you WOULD never use the Force in a manner has to be transformed in the fact you WILL never use such a Force expression.

But we could still have both game types: Force "forced" games and Force "unforced" games.

[Vagabond]

I urge everyone to vote <a href="http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30150" target="_blank">here</a> and register your opinion on the topic. Thank you.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Wilhuf

In Jedi Knight you weren't penalized for slashing the hapless stormtrooper, even if you were a lightsider. Why? Becuase 1. you are defending yourself from murdering stormies, 2. you are liberating the Valley of the Jedi, and 3. the stormies are the badguys and deserve to die!

 

Hmmm..yeah, they are supposed to be the bad guys, but if you recall, Kyle was once a Stormtrooper himself. He was sickened by the atrocities he commited in the name of the Empire, and turned to the rebel cause. He even rescued another ex-Imperial in the form of Crix Madine. In JK, however, the Stormtroopers are never offered the same choice that Kyle made, because you simply kill them all. The possibility of Imperials being Rebel sympathisers is never explored in the game...and that might have been an element worth exploring, if only to expand the choices within the gameplay framework. If they are individuals capable of making individual choices, there is always a chance that one or more Stormies might actually think 'I'm sick of hunting this Jedi, let's join him instead because what he is doing is right'.

 

Moreover, you were penalized for killing civilians. Why? 1. It doesn't advance the mission objective. 2. the civilians are innocent and don't deserve to die 3. you are defending them from the yoke of Imperial tyranny. The lines between good and evil were pretty clear in Jedi Knight.

 

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with this aspect of JK...but again, the possibility of some of those 'civilians' being Imperial spies was never explored. So in that sense the division between good and evil was possibly too clearly defined... Yes, it is a game, and at the time JK was released, as gamers we probably required such a black and white distinction...but I feel that the gameplay has moved along in leaps and bounds since then...and there is room now for more complex behaviours amongst NPCs, both those usually easily recognisable as enemies, and those you would normally trust and assist. Introducing such elements could potentially add more of the moral flavour highlighted in JK, because you could never be 100 percent certain you are shooting/sabering the right enemy.

 

In those circumstances, I think the use of defensive force powers could be enhanced...so that instead of just killing everything in sight, you have the choice of stunning, disarming...or calming an opponent to the extent that Qui-Gon did with Jar-Jar when he sent the Gungan to sleep (briefly) in the Sub in TPM.

 

There is no reason why such a system cannot work in MP...if those who see themselves as light siders can simply knock out opponents rather than killing them. There would be little difference in how the game is scored...but it could potentially add a little extra to bog-standard deathmatch. I know it's a game, but the idea of light side Jedi killing other light side Jedi for frag points doesn't really fit into the context of SW...only the context of a well-established MP mode that is already showing it's age and growing stale.

 

It's just an idea...

 

 

Originally posted by Vagabond

I don't even buy into vanilla Jedis using the Force in non-lethal ways. If they're going to kill people with their lightsabers, then who cares whether you use a lightsaber or the Force to do it? Maybe you kill the evil enemy with Force Grip, maybe you cause a ton of boulders to fall down on him, or maybe you just Force Blind him and he falls off a cliff and dies. Whether you directly or indirectly set a series of events in motion which results in someone's death is irrelevant because the outcome is the same.

 

I agree that killing an evil enemy, or if a dark-sider one you consider a rival, by whatever means is probably necessary, and your duty as a Jedi. However, your argument does not resolve the issue of those who perceive themselves to be light-siders...and killing other light-siders in MP, as I outlined above.

 

Weapons are for killing, especially the Jedi's signature weapon, the lightsaber.

 

I do not totally agree that the lightsaber is only for killing. Yes, it is a weapon, but it is also a very useful defensive tool which can be used to shield the user and anyone close to them from blaster fire. It can also be used as a light, for cutting through walls, etc. It is, to my mind, a weapon as a last resort...when you have established that your enemy will not relent by any other means, or is simply truly evil and needs to be eradicated.

 

The point I made earlier is that there is no real middle ground...you either stand by and die, or use whatever is at your disposal to kill. This fits well into the context of traditional MP modes, but does it really fit well into the context of Star Wars and the Jedi tradition?

 

It's just some food for thought. If we end up with Deathmatch with Force powers and Lightsabers, I don't really have a problem with that. However, considering the Star Wars context, it might be nice if other possibilities were explored. If they are not workable, or fun, then of course such ideas should fall by the way-side...but not to explore them at all would be a wasted opportunity.

[ed_silvergun]

I agree wholeheartedly with Vagabond that separation of Force powers is wholly unnatural and places artificial limitations on gameplay.

 

I also agree completely with Wilhuf that it is absolutely necessary in the interests of the gaming experience to place artificial limitations on gameplay.

 

Whether we like it or not, freeform games are not necessarily "better" or "more enjoyable" than more linear games. If left completely to their own devices, gamers will soon become bored or frustrated because the choices before them are simply too bewildering.

 

In my opinion, the games which work best are games which fool us into thinking we have more choices than we actually do. A lot of decisions may be taken away from us or made on our behalf, but this process is so transparent that we don't realise.

 

The Force power selection system in MotS is a rudimentary example of this. At first glance, it seems to offer a multiplicity of choices, but it's only when you get further into the game that you realise you don't actually have as much freedom as you first thought. As Vagabond mentioned in one of his above posts, you can't have all the most potent Force powers. You can't "have your cake and eat it" as it were.

 

In MotS, you're forced to make a trade-off, but it differs from the JK style of trade-off in that you're not pigeon-holed. It's up to you whether you choose "light" or "dark" powers (and yes, the inverted commas are there for a reason) or a combination thereof. You, the player, take your own personal preferences and prejudices into the game with you and this consequently determines the way you play. You're not forced to take a particular route purely because that's the way some programmer at LEC has decided you must play the game.

 

This is what I enjoyed, and this is what I would like to see continued in Jedi Outcast. We already know that there's some sort of RPG-style system in the game where NPCs react differently to you depending on your actions while you're playing. One thought I had was that Force powers could maybe be included in this system. Those who quietly kill their enemies with the minimum of fuss (using a saber, for example) stay to the light side and NPCs react well to them. Those who prefer to charge round torturing their enemies with lightning or strangling them to death unnecessarily will, conversely, find that NPCs are slightly more wary of them and less willing to cooperate.

 

It's just a thought, but this is one way that JKO could reflect the differences between the light and dark sides without pigeon-holing players or forcing them down set or pre-determined paths during gameplay.

[Ushgarak]

I want to shoot down any idea that it is canonical that Jedi do not use their Force powers in an offensive way. Yoda's line did not mean that.

 

When he says they pnly use their powers for 'defence', he does not mean they only use them to keep themslves alive. A Jedi is a warrior. Their primary purpose in battle is to kill an enemy. They use their powers to this end all the time- every jump, tiwril and preternatural feat of timing and future sense is usng their powers in such a way, as is using push to smash someone into a wall.

 

Yoda himself will display such powers used in fighting in the coming film.

 

And even if you do think that the artifiical division into Light and Dark serves some sort of purpose in making you differentiate into offensive or defensive, it did not work out properly. It was, simply, silly that Light Siders could not have throwand Dark Siders could not have Persuade. There is absolutely no reason why they should not.

 

The MOTS system, indeed, offerened suitable limitations without pigeonholing you into good and eveil based on powers rather than actions.

[StormHammer]

ed, despite my last post...I also agree with both Vagabond and Wilhuf's points of view. I also agree with you that there must be some trade-off...and that yes, we are indeed fooled into thinking we have more choices.

 

I have a completely open mind...I'm just casting a bit of grey between the black and white, and exploring some other avenues.

 

When I mentioned NPC behaviours, it was more in terms of what their motives were in the game...not necessarily how they reacted to Kyle's (our) actions...

[Ushgarak]

Perhaps if it was the other wa around it would work better- if you could only take the more evil powers if you had been acting evil, and the more good powers if you had been acting good. What really annoyed me about JK is that simply by being able to throw, it made you more evil. Weird.

 

And that only works if there is a more sensible good/evil divide, of course, ony applying to the more extreme powers. Like I say, the Mind Trick and Throw, and so on, should not be aligned! MOST powers should not be aligned!

[StormHammer]

Uskgarak, it sounds reasonable enough...but again, if you look at it from the other perspective of having all force powers...

 

If you use Grip to kill your opponent...that might be considered an evil act, so you take a step to the dark side. If, however, you use Grip to close off a pipe that is leaking toxic gas into a public area...that would be beneficial to those in that area, so you take a step to the light side. But you are still using the same force power...so the distinction of light and dark between force powers doesn't make sense.

 

However...how else can you define how light or dark you are in the game, especially in MP? Also, using the little scenario above...that assumes you would be able to close off a pipe leaking gas, an event that must be encoded into the game, and become a part of the gameplay.

 

This is the crux of my point...that you cannot really demonstrate the use of any force powers for good uses unless Raven actually puts in little scenarios like that...and that would create an enormous increase in interactivity with the environment, and alter slightly how you use force powers in relation to enemies and other NPCs.

 

So, at the end of the day, some sort of balance needs to be struck between defining Light and Dark powers, and determining how Light or Dark your character is dependent on their actions in the game world. It is almost a Catch-22 situation...

[Ushgarak]

But it could be equally argued that using grip to kill an opponent is no different to slicing him in half with a sabre, so long as you aren't cruel about it. Without more knoledge about how the Force works, and whether you need aggressive emotions to use it to kill like that, it's difficuult to be sure.

 

But fine, make Grip one of the more 'evil' powers. But such aligned powers really should be rare.

 

And as I say, merely TAKING Grip shouldn't make you more evil.

[StormHammer]

Exactly. But as I said, Grip doesn't have to be used for Evil...

 

The two systems (All powers, or Light/Dark only) cannot really marry up without a lot of consideration and work to try and resolve the logic errors... If Grip is dark-aligned but you use it for Good, you take a step to the dark side for use of a dark force power, then do an about turn and take a step to the Light side for doing a good deed with it. So by using the Force power in that way, you remain neutral. The only problem is whether the game will let you carry out a good deed with it...

 

Anyway, it's late, I'm tired, and as you say...we will have to wait and see exactly how the game plays...