Light Saber Battles to be the main event

[DeathBoLT]

Originally posted by Logan SkyWalker

And like i said in my original post, if you read it, the light saber is what the other two big first person shooters dont have and thats a FACT.

Both of the two other big games have melee weapons. Heck, even UT's melee weapon, the impact hammer blocks just like the lightsaber. The lightsaber is more useful, IMHO, than the Gauntlet, the Impact hammer, axe or whatever, but, its function is nothing new to computer games.

 

 

So if you think this game will carry as many players without a good to exellent LS system your just plain wrong.

They probably wouldn't get as much business if the Lightsaber was lousy, but it certainly won't wreck the game. JK had many enjoyable forms of playing 3/4s of which the lightsaber wasn't neccessary.

 

JK's simple lightsaber didn't stop it from achieving success, and having a simple lightsaber won't stop JKii from being successful.

 

Damaging all other aspets(movement, force powers) of JKii for the sake of having elaborate arcade game-style saber duels(that people will find a way around and mess up your attempts for elaborate duels anyways) is where the danger to JKii's success lies.

 

 

And please this is my first post and already im being insulted, lets try to be civil. OK deathbolt ???

if i played it right ...what nerve!!!

 

I sincerely mean no offense, but you obviously haven't played it right if you think its luck.

 

btw welcome to the forums

[Shmed]

"Totaly agree with this 100% but not the high/mid/low attack that would be WAY to complex!!!! "

 

I'm not sure you understood what I meant completely. The high/mid/low attacks would be done simply by attacking high/mid/low on the enemy character model with the mouse. It's as simple as can be.

 

Also another thing about Obi-Wan I liked were the force lightsaber fights... basically they just used the force to pull off especially powerful swings... which added a whole level of new swings to Obi-Wan's combat system. The more I think about it the more I like Obi's combat system. It is tight and responsive, effective and simple but deeper than JK's. The blocking system I mentioned above is especially good. I forgot to mention the manual blocks use a little force power too (since you're using the force to direct the shot back at the shooter). Too bad the rest of the game (Obi-Wan) isn't as good... the graphics suck, animations are stiff, level design is uninspired and repetitive, awful, truly awful voice acting, and Obi-Wan controls like a car (you can't strafe and turn at the same time so you have to back up and around to turn quickly, like a car).

[Logan SkyWalker]

Those other games you mentioned are not of the same caliber as QUAKE 3 or RTCW in my book anyway. And if i wanted a gun specific type shooter even being a hugh Star Wars fan, RTCW would probably take the cake in that department. Cause those weapons are "REAL" and so is the enemy. So for me as for MOST others, the lightsaber system must be done well to make this game as playable as the others. And as for playing JK right .... anytime bub...

[DeathBoLT]

i'd be happy to play you and show you how its done

icq- 55920286

zone name: Deathbolt, but i don't get on that too often; i don't play JK very often anymore so we're better off using icq to organize a game.

 

 

ed- btw i mentioned q3 in the form of stating the guantlet

[Logan SkyWalker]

gauntlet vs. saber do i need to go on .... jezz !!!!!!!!!!

[nykel007]

You know what I would like to see now since JK2 is in it's final months, if LEC/Raven offer not a whole demo level but just a small room somewhat, with you and your lightsaber slicing up a few ST. Just so that we could get a feel of how Ls control works.

[GB_StormTrooper]

Now that would be sweet...I love to Lightsaber Duel

[Agen]

the others. And as for playing JK right .... anytime bub...

BTW, if i'm right most of the peps here are ex-jk players and er..... quite.. good. I played DeathBolt a few times on the zone under a similar name. (in the days where jk was played)Damn he uses all the tactics i use and i think i managed to peep a win over him but still not the person to be messing with when u just joined jk2.net

 

PS. i don't mean to offend u or anything but i think u needed more than luck to win jk saber battles even though i'm ff gunner.

[Obi Kwan]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

 

JK's simple lightsaber didn't stop it from achieving success, and having a simple lightsaber won't stop JKii from being successful.

 

I think here inlies the heart of the argument; whether people want a really cool FPS in the StarWars galaxy or whether people want a really cool FPS int he StarWars galaxy that lets you be a jedi.

 

For me personally, I'd find little satisfaction with just force powers and guns and some useless sabre. That was fun in its time, about 4 years ago and at the time it seemed like we were all jedi running around slashing each other, but that wont suffice this time around!

[The Seeker]

Woo hoo! looks like we may have a duel of honor between the newbie and deathbolt!

 

Place your bets. my cash is on deathbolt.

[Agen]

my money's on deathbolt........ €50

[Ushgarak]

Sabre fighting wasn't completely luck in the original but I would be surrpised if anyone thinks it was a satisfactory representation of duelling from the films. And I don;t think many found them any fun in ANY sense at all.

[DeathBoLT]

While I don't think we've ever played terminator, I appreciate the vote of confidence..

 

back on topic tho:

gauntlet vs. saber do i need to go on .... jezz !!!!!!!!!!

 

as ive stated before, i think saber was more useful than the gauntlet.. however, even with a simple system it managed to generate a very entertaining method of lightsaber duels, without affecting the other aspects of JK(force, guns, etc.).

 

However, the methods of 'improving' the saber that you suggested would impact the other aspects of JKii. The Lightsaber wasn't the sole reason for the success of Jedi Knight; guns and force were important part of it too. If JKII is even going to be able to hope to be able to bring some Quake 3 gamers over, its going to have to offer a strong guns system. Slow down the pace of the game to force people to conform to movie style duels and you deny JKii the ability to double as a great fpser, thus inhbiting JKii from attracting even more players from Quake 3, Unreal, etc.'s gaming communities.

[DeathBoLT]

Originally posted by Ushgarak

And I don;t think many found them any fun in ANY sense at all.

 

Thats not entirely true... I never had problems finding a BGJ NF game to play on the Zone whereas with most of the other popular settings, finding people could get hard sometimes, mid '00(which was pretty much the last time I played frequently and competively.. heh)

 

I think its primarily because most gunners were drawn towards newer games, and FF had such a large learning curve. But either way, so many people wouldn't play BGJ NF if it wasn't fun. Remember, there are newer games out there offering melee combat(although none matched JK BGJ NF in my opinion). If they didn't like BGJ NF, they could have gone to play sword fighting elsewhere.

 

ed- comprehensibility issues

[swift_saber]

There are some serious noobs that dont know a thing about light saber duels in JK here. Saber duels are true tests of skill. due to lag in JK, blocking was not that important because you are always trying to strike where the other person was GOING to be so you would rarely block if you knew what you were doning. Sabers make JK a great game, i can play guns on a ton of games. Gotta play CS now.

[Logan SkyWalker]

first off I may be a newbie to this forem but not to Jedi Knight, I played the game from its release and still do to this day, (cause thats all there is, damit)

 

But my point is this and has been from post #1, and i didnt expect argument over this, without a enjoyable LS system this game will not live up to the hype. Guess ill just whave to put it to a vote.

[DeathBoLT]

well the major part of the debate was what was enjoyable.

 

You, quite a few of other forum users, and even I, thought movie-like saber fighting, in a method that basically amounts to a 2d arcade street fighter, etc. with lightsabers would be cool. i quit thinking it would be so cool when i realized the destructive impact of having the Saber-dueling system, designed in the way just mentioned, would have have on every other aspects of JKii.

 

however, JK was successful with a relatively simple Lightsaber, and I think JKII will be too, as long as you offer great game play in the other aspects of the game.

[Wilhuf]

Slow down the pace of the game to force people to conform to movie style duels and you deny JKii the ability to double as a great fpser, thus inhbiting JKii from attracting even more players from Quake 3, Unreal, etc.'s gaming communities.

 

Presumably by 'slower paced' Deathbolt somehow means reduced force speed, or overall slower character movement. But he hasn't really established how a slower paced game would amount to an 'arcade' two-dimensional fighting game.

 

How would a slower pace encourage button mashing? Jedi Knight and MotS had a very fast pace, and they were rife with button mashing: Supergrip and superlightning everywhere. A faster paced game with button mashing.

 

If Outcast has many elaborate saber button combinations, then sure, Outcast would resemble an arcade button-mashing fighting game. Perhaps this is what you were getting at? I don't believe that is what Raven has planned.

 

In any case, pacing would have nothing to do with button mashing.

 

Also, how would a slower pace in any way prevent Outcast from attracting more players from other communities? The opposite could be true actually. The slower pace would likely be much more appealing to a broader audience. I know several newcomers to Jedi Knight who were completely turned off by the pace of Jedi Knight (too fast they said).

 

At worst case, with a lower pace, a few Jedi Knighters, unable to adapt, would refuse to play. No loss.

 

In all likelihood the rest of the 'vets' would complain, adapt, and eventually enjoy it. Some of the more resourceful players will code mods to get the exact gameplay they want. Great.

 

Even with a slower overall pace Outcast will remain very much a 3 dimensional shooter. The projectile weapons are still there. Jump is still there. The level layout will support and encourage 3d movement, including vertical movement.

 

I agree that getting movie-like gameplay will be difficult. As you've said, it won't work if both opponents fail to play it that way, no matter what the pace. In any case, a slower pace isn't necessarily included for the purpose of creating 'movie-like gameplay.'

 

Actually one could just make a 'Jedi Knight Classic' mod for Outcast that preserves (as you've demanded) all of the settings and gameplay of the original. No worries.

 

[DeathBoLT]

Presumably by 'slower paced' Deathbolt somehow means reduced force speed, or overall slower character movement.

No I don't mean reduced force speed, I mean no-force speed, as there couldn't be force speed if you were to impose the neccessary settings to get movie-like game play.

 

But he hasn't really established how a slower paced game would amount to an 'arcade' two-dimensional fighting game.

RS-speed slow pace.

 

Supergrip and superlightning everywhere.

supergrip and superlighting were game errors that were considered cheating to some degree, and violations of proper 'JK FF etiquette'. They were the type of things, that when used correctly, that could be seen as the equivalant to aimbot cheats, and perhaps a anti-clip hack because a) they were dead as soon as you got a lock(which wasn't hard to do) and b) due to lag, they could continue to grip you when you left their field of view.

 

If Outcast has many elaborate saber button combinations, then sure, Outcast would resemble an arcade button-mashing fighting game. I don't believe that is what Raven has planned.

I certainly hope not.

 

 

Also, how would a slower pace in any way prevent Outcast from attracting more players from other communities?

The primary audiences that I was referring to were Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, etc. What is a Quake 3 player more likely to choose? A fast paced DM or a RS-paced game with sticks?

 

I agree that getting movie-like gameplay will be difficult. As you've said, it won't work if both opponents fail to play it that way, no matter what the pace.

I wouldn't mind reducing the pace significantly(well I wouldn't probably wouldn't like it, but I'd get over it), up until where we hit a RS-paced speed.

 

In any case, a slower pace isn't necessarily included for the purpose of creating 'movie-like gameplay.'

 

If both indivduals are willing to play slow-paced enough in order to roleplay and have movie like duels, no they would not need to lower speeds. However, if they were to try and impose this on everyone, youl would most likely need to slow down the pace to prevent the guy who wants to play to win and not pretend they're fighting darth maul, qui gon, or whoever from making hit and run attacks.

 

Actually one could just make a 'Jedi Knight Classic' mod for Outcast that preserves (as you've demanded) all of the settings and gameplay of the original.

I don't want to preserve all the aspects of the game; I just don't want to play RS-paced Deathmatch with sticks and a conc/rocket launcher type weapon/whatever.

[Wilhuf]

What is a Quake 3 player more likely to choose? A fast paced DM or a RS-paced game with sticks?

If given those odd choices, fast paced DM, of course.

 

But Outcast could easily be something in-between those polar opposites. Probably a fast or medium paced DM with lightsabers. I believe Force speed is available in Outcast. 'Sticks' makes it sound so ... not fun.

 

I doubt guns are being thrown in as an afterthought. There will be plenty of gun play. Although the lightsaber badly needs a dose of respect.

 

If there is some kind of force allocation system for multiplayer, it's possible gamers can pick settings that support 'movie play.' Or they could pick faster gameplay for Jedi-Lord style high speed play. Gamers should be able to choose which they prefer, so no one style will be 'imposed' on anyone.

[DeathBoLT]

...the lightsaber badly needs a dose of respect.

 

Well the reality is, if the same movement, same settings, same guns, same maps, same everything were put onto a Quake 3 Engine with pixel collision detection, dedicated servers, etc., the Lightsaber would be a extremely lethal weapon. Because once you snuck up them, or managed to get close enough to make contact, its over for the gunner. The only reason the Lightsaber was such an ineffectual weapon in Jedi Knight, was simply because it was difficult to score a hit between the poor collision detection and lag. I'm sure pixel collision detection, dedicated servers, etc. will make the Lightsaber a weapon that leaves gunners panically attempting to get out of the way when you ambush them, rather than calmly hopping away whilst taking shots at you.

 

There will be plenty of gun play.

I don't doubt that for a second. I'd just rather not play RS guns in JKII

 

'Sticks' makes it sound so ... not fun.

I'm as anxious for Lightsabers as any one else(NF sabers was the main thing that I played competively in JK), but for many Quakers; all lightsabers will be is sticks. I'm sure that what will probably draw amany of them that come(star wars fans excluded) is semi-fast paced gun play.

 

Disclaimer: This is all semi-educated speculation as far as what will make JKII a particular attraction for other communities, based on conversations with various Quake 3 players and some UT guys.

[The Wanderer]

Hi, I haven't posted here in a good long while. First off, I don't really give a good godamn what the "quakers" do or do not like in their games. this is Jedi Outcast, not Quake 3.

 

Second... as skillfull as lightsaber battles may have been in JK1, they were NOT lightsaber duels. they did not feel like lightsaber duels. I don't care how skillful it may have been, the plain fact of the matter is that people WANT a lightsaber duel like something straight out of the Empire Strikes back, or even Episode 1, slow pace and all. It's a Star Wars game, and I think that the people who decide to buy this game (NOT Quake) want to feel like they are in a star wars movie, not like they're in the middle of "Glow-stick-joust adventures" And if that means you can't run 250 mph sideways, fine by me and everyone else who is sick of that sort of thing. Believe it or not, some people DON'T like hyper-fast gameplay. Why tailer this game to hardcore quakers, when they're just going to go off and play quake, or whatever the latest shooter is instead of JK2 anyway?

 

What exactly is wrong with slower gameplay? and what exactly is wrong with the duels being more "movielike"? people around here say movielike as if it were an insult, which baffles me. The game IS based on a movie after all.

 

 

P.S. it's a shame, and a bad sign that blocking isn't in some way manual.

[StarScrap]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

No I don't mean reduced force speed, I mean no-force speed, as there couldn't be force speed if you were to impose the neccessary settings to get movie-like game play.

 

 

I beleive the point of advanced saber control was not to "force" people to play in only movie-style saber battles, with a little bit of slow-paced guns, but to ALLOW people to play in movie-style saber battles, OR with fast-paced guns. You seem to think that if people could use force speed to easily defeat a person who was foolishly not using force speed to try for a movie-style battle, that they would put on force speed and just kill the other guy like he was a gnat. However, even in JK, people often decided to go to a secluded part of the map and play NF sabers. And there were also plenty of games dedicated to NF sabers, though they often palled after a while due to the lack of movie-style battles.

 

Anyway, my point is that slowing the pace of the game for saber battles need not slow it for the rest of the ways of playing, due to server settings.

[StarScrap]

OHHH!!! I'm a PADAWAN!!!

[NeJJa]

I think many people from the original jedi knight liked to turn saber battles into actual star wars roleplaying, good vs evil battles etc. The players who concentrated on becoming better at all aspects of the game usually looked on these guys like they were idiots, and in my opinion a lot of them were. However, the people who played in the 'RPG' style normally had a ton of fun doing it, even though they got dominated by people who used the most effective tactics to win. The majority of these players (DBZ_SSJGOHAN4SS, DaRK_EviLJEDI, etc.) are going to be pulling for the cinematic style lightsaber duels, when in reality, withing a few months of the games release the most effective moves/combos will have been figured out.

As for saber being the most important aspect, I think there is no doubt that in the original JK the main focus of the game, and what set it apart, was it's physics in NF games, and the use of force powers in FF games. Most people who played NF sabers exclusively were considered 'newbies' by the upper echelon of JK players no matter what there sabering skill level was.

Do i have a point? no.

Was this interesting and semi-on topic? mabye.