Vagabond Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Originally posted by Vestril ...Who says Midichlorians are able to be cultivated?...To say, without qualification, that they can be grown and infused into another person is rather reckless... You're right - it would be reckless for someone to state what you claim I said, which is why I didn't state that. Re-read what I said. No wait, I'll do it for you... Me: "So back to my original assertion, if <---(notice that word) one were able to cultivate midi-chlorians, and then inject themselves with them, one could artificially make oneself powerful with the Force." My reasoning for stating that they if midi-chlorians were injected into someone's blood they would become more powerful, is because Qui-Gon got a blood sample from Anakin, resulting in a "midi-chlorian count" of over twenty thousand, implying that there were a great number of midi-chlorians in Anakin's bloodstream, further implying that he likely had hundreds of thousands or even millions to billions of midi-chlorians in his body. The key being that putting more of them into your blood, will increase the number of them in your body, and will increase your power with the Force. This is very simple logic. In addition, Qui-Gon states that mid-chlorians are microscopic life forms, which are present in all living cells, not just those of Jedi. Jedi just happen to have more of them. He also states that midi-chlorians constantly speak to you, telling you the will of the Force. It would seem that the more midi-chlorians in your body, the stronger the signal would be, and the stronger you would be with the Force. The point being that that (1) theoretically, microscopic life forms should be able to be artificially cultivated, but this is uncertain, and (2) it is the amount of midi-chlorians in one's body that determines one's raw power with the Force. ...It would make sense to me that the Midichlorians entertain a personal connection to their host... Well, that's certainly an opinion that you're entitled to. I don't happen to share it. There is the implication that midi-chlorians as a species have some sort of collective consciousness or communication, as evidenced by the comment that Anakin was created by the midi-chlorians. However, in general I don't think they just pick a good apple (host body) and decide to live there in large numbers. Further, I think midi-chlorians are neutral when it comes to good and bad, which is a subjective term. Otherwise they would never choose to live in the body of a so-called "bad" person, while flocking toward the "good" people. ...When you're born with a high Midichlorian count they are yours to direct, they were created with you and imprinted to you, and if you grow as a Jedi, listening to them and following their way, you move in the same direction as them, allowing yourself to be more taken into the will of the Force. If you grow up without the benefit of Jedi training, you might miss their subtle prodding, and you might grow in a different direction, and ultimately get cut off from them when you grow too far the wrong way. .. Again, I don't think the midi-chlorians prefer good or evil, otherwise the Emperor and the large number of Sith from historical accounts, could never have existed, according to your theory. Rather, what the midi-chlorians seem to prefer is balance in both good and evil, thus the creation of Anakin. ...Did I, at any point, say or even suggest that they rejected him because he had no power in the Force:confused: Well, you did say: ...If a high Midichlorian count was all it took, they wouldn't have bothered with that (testing Anakin). Clearly there has to be something else going on--the Midichlorians have to be willing to participate, or something along those lines... To me, you appear to be saying that if someone has a high midi-chlorian count, they still may not be able to use the Force, or even be taught to use the Force. It would be like a guy that is totally jacked with muscles all over his body, and yet is so weak that he can't even lift a piece of tissue paper. Where I would contend that he could definitely lift the piece of tissue paper, but depending on the amount of skill (dexterity) he had, he may be able to do it gracefully, or clumsily, which would be analagous to skill in using the Force. Lastly, the point that we have to even have this retarded debate is another reason for despising the whole concept of midi-chlorians - they're the worst thing since Greedo shooting first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Ermmm...I dunno, it seems as if we have largely misunderstood one another. Because you really aren't responding to any of the things I actually meant. For example you seemed to think that I meant that Midichlorians prefer 'good' people as opposed to 'bad' people when I went out of my way to avoid that argument lol. Oh well...you make a lot of good points, and I think I did as well. I have no problem with Midichlorians, you do have a problem with them. End of story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trahern Valley Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Well, smeg it. I'm not a Christian and I'm trying to remember stuff from Sunday school. I'm just glad they didn't mention the little parasites in ep2. I know George gets his ideas from all kinds of interesting places, but he used to be clever about it. I didn't know there was a desert called Tatouine until the X-Files movie. The only reason I recognised Portuguese in ep6 is because I speak it. The sentry droid to Jabba's Palace telling Threepio to "Vai por casa!" made me laugh... It's terribly ironic that he planned the clone wars decades ago, and the clone war starts now, during the whole controversy thing thats going on in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Well, smeg it. I'm not a Christian and I'm trying to remember stuff from Sunday school. Smeg it?? Ew... What's funny is that I'm not a christian either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absath Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 in my opinion at first, midichlorians botched the force. but i now feel that with some creative manipulation by the fans, it can still maintain its integrity. As was mentioned before, I now look at the force as the same mystic aura it always was. They never said midichlorians "were" the force right? so lets just assume that the midichlorians are microscopic organisms, and probably the only ones in the galaxy who know what the force actually is. the fact that they form a symbiotic relationship with certain beings, thus allowing them to access the mysterious force isnt a big deal is it? i mean, before ep1 we were to understand that people were just born, and realized one day "hey...i can use the force" and now we understand that people realize "hey i have midichlorians in my blood....i can use the force" its not really a huge difference if you look at it in an optimistic light. -Abs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 It's not a huge difference at all. Imagine if you or I could suddenly use the Force, and we didn't really know why, we just could. A few years down the line there were more of us, and someone had looked into things and noticed that hey, when people can use the Force, they happen to have a whole lot of these little Midichlorian things. Ooooooh, big deal, it's not like all of the sudden the Force doesn't exist, and it doesn't change how it worked. I think most of the people who are angry about it are angry because it destroyed their dreams of one day suddenly manifesting the ability use the Force... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCanr2d2 Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I find it confusing that one claims that genetics and biology are totally seperate. I don't find the midichlorians taking away from the mystery of the Force, I think it was a required fix to place the misconception that the Force was a religious thing, and not a biological/genetic one. Only a non-believer like Han ever mentions the "religious" thing about the Force, and all of a sudden every man and his dog thinks its all a religious training thing... People ignored the hints in the original movies, and thought that every man and his dog could be a Jedi if they trained. Every no doubt dreamed that they could be a Jedi when the movies came out, to me it now makes those that are Jedi more gifted. They are now more of the chosen ones amongst everyone, rather than just being able to learn certain things. It takes them out from being something akin to martial arts - very lethal, but most people can learn it, to being genetically gifted, a lot rarer... We get hints that the Force is something that is genetic, that one's POTENTIAL ability to have strength in the Force is linked to if it was in the family beforehand. As for the midichlorian count, it would be like most blood tests, parts per whatever, so 20,000 per million is quite high I would assume, considering contemporary bilogy shows us about the mixtures of things in the blood. I see the midi's as a conduit to someone being able to listen to the force. Anakin, as an untrained Jedi is just seen as a gifted slave who can race pod racers, the only human to do so. IF Anakin was never found, he would've never known about how to do Jedi things, like foresee the future, etc. Just because the Jedi and Sith both know how to detect them, doesn't mean that they can reproduce them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 If the ability to manipulate the Force is not genetic, but rather a by-product of having lots of midi-chlorians in your blood, then it makes no sense that the son and daughter of Anakin would be a threat to the Emperor. One can not pass midi-chlorians from father to offspring in such a manner - that is not how sexual reproduction works. There is a female egg, and a male sperm, which combine and eventually lead to the fetus. Some may argue that maybe some midi-chlorians are passed from the father to the baby via his sperm. The answer would be, "of course", since it has already been stated that midi-chlorians exist in all living cells. However, it is highly doubtful that a sufficient dosage would be passed to make his progeny exceptionally endowed with midi-chlorians. And to further the argument against this analogy, if it were true then one would expect that the mere act of transfering significant amounts of ejaculate into Padme would, at least temporarily, make her much stronger with the Force - sperm only has a 24-36 hour lifespan. Conclusion: If Force ability is not genetic, then how could Luke and Leia be strong with the Force, as their father, Anakin, was? It doesn't make sense. Look, people, just because you want this midi-chlorian BS to make sense, doesn't mean it does. It is what it is, and it doesn't make sense. If you care about conclusion, then that can cloud your judgement - meaning if you want midi-chlorians to make sense, then you're vulnerable to letting that desire overrule your common-sense, and try to invent reasons, and even blind yourself to rationality, in your quest to justify this nonsensical ca-ca. Look, I'd really like for the midi-chlorian thing to make sense, but the plain truth is that it just doesn't. It doesn't fit in with the plot as we know it - George should have never gone down this path, and left it completely mysterious, with the implied genetic link to Force ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absath Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 so whats not to say that a high midichlorian count cant be genetically transmitted? im not so miffed about the midichlorians as i cam about the catholic rip off for anakin. "there was no father....i was just with child" blah weak =P -Abs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsurfer Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Yoda says that the Force links everything with everything else in ESB - it links Luke to the tree the rock etc. It would make sense that something physical interacts with the Force (which is supposed some form of energy field - as stated by Obi Wan in ANH). Now the definition of a field (in the physics sense) is that it is how a force (ie a push/pull action) acts on a body/particle due to its position relative to something else. Therefore, the Force is the energy field which acts on the midi chlorians. The Jedi have a high concentration of midi-chlorians so they can manipulate other things with midi-chlorians more easily once they are able to control their actions with the Force. So really the midi-chlorians are just a mechanism by which Jedi can access the Force. However, the Force itself maintains the mystical nature as believed by Yoda and how it is described in the OT since it is still unclear how it works. So really I don't have a problem with midi-chlorians, it makes the Force make more sense but still give it that unknowing/ystical property! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Vag--no one ever said it was passed genetically. If it was they wouldn't look for random babies through the rebublic, they would develop a breeding program The Force is strong in Lukes family because this is the will of the Force. Also, you say we're reaching for reasons? That no matter how hard we want it to make sense, it's still a bad idea? I say you're doing the same thing, stretching and reaching for reasons to make it not make sense. You don't like it, we do. Your mind will never change, if I came up with obvious, simple proof that Midichlorians were better than not, you would still believe they sucked, as near as I can tell. The reverse is not, actually, true for me. I have had my mind changed a number of times, especially in these forums, but I'm afraid it takes better logic than what you're presenting. im not so miffed about the midichlorians as i cam about the catholic rip off for anakin. "there was no father....i was just with child" blah weak =P Bah--scroll up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Again, there is no explanation for how midi-chlorians move from the father to his children. The reason a "high midi-chlorian count" can't be transmitted genetically, is because the count itself is merely a measure of the amount of midi-chlorians, which are independent life forms, that are present in one's body. Since they are independent, they can not be passed genetically. Their DNA is separate from your own, hence it is not passed from father to child. So to reiterate, the midi-chlorian definition is not only very sterile in a dramatic sense, it is also inadequate in its ability to explain how a parent passes the ability to maniuplate the force on to its child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I'm sorry, this is my fault for the poor wording. There is nothing to suggest that the Force or a Midichlorian count is passed at all through familial ties. Replace genetics with 'through familial ties' in the above post. Then respond. The most logical explanation to me is that the Midichlorians come in as you are in the Womb, through the mother, and then reproduce to saturate you based on markers we don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Your statement does not address why the Emperor feared that Luke and Leia would be a threat to him. If Force ability is not passed genetically, and midi-chlorians are not passed from the father's sperm, then why are the offspring of a Force-senstive person also likely to be strong with the Force? You state that perhaps the midi-chlorians come in through the mother's womb. Perhaps, but why would they be more attracted to the offspring of a Force-senstive person, as opposed to a child of "normal" person? The big pink elephant in the middle of the room is, Why? Genetics - that I understand. All this hokey nonsense about midi-chlorians - if this is the best thing Lucas could come up with, then he should have left it the way it was in the original trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky_Baccy Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 *Ignores Vabgabond's almost arrogant single-mindedness, and Vestril's extreme pedantry* - You're both worse than me! *Wonders if he'll regret that...* *Looks back over their previous posts, and decides not* You know I'm right Originally posted by techsurfer Yoda says that the Force links everything with everything else in ESB - it links Luke to the tree the rock etc. It would make sense that something physical interacts with the Force (which is supposed some form of energy field - as stated by Obi Wan in ANH). Now the definition of a field (in the physics sense) is that it is how a force (ie a push/pull action) acts on a body/particle due to its position relative to something else. Therefore, the Force is the energy field which acts on the midi chlorians. The Jedi have a high concentration of midi-chlorians so they can manipulate other things with midi-chlorians more easily once they are able to control their actions with the Force. So really the midi-chlorians are just a mechanism by which Jedi can access the Force. However, the Force itself maintains the mystical nature as believed by Yoda and how it is described in the OT since it is still unclear how it works. So really I don't have a problem with midi-chlorians, it makes the Force make more sense but still give it that unknowing/mystical property! Thankyou, tech - that was all I needed to read on the subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murdoch Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Most above posts provide good evidence both in favour and against the supidity of midichlorians. What we don't want to admit to ourselves however is the fact that there is a very good possibiliy that Lucas simply came up with this when he was drunk and is now laughing at us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I totally agree with you. In my opinion, he does not appear to have given much thought to the idea - his main idea for coming up with the midi-chlorians seems to have been to provide a way for Qui-Gon to irrefutably identify Anakin as being especially strong with the Force so he could justify bringing him before the council. Unfortunately, Lucas doesn't appear to have considered the other questions that are raised by the introduction of midi-chlorians, such as how Force ability is passed from parents to children. No, it would seem that Lucas has resorted to licking tropical frogs as part of his brainstorming ritual - and he seems to have been exposed to an especially toxic batch of frogs at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Since it would appear that I am not only pedantic, but extremely pedantic (however that works) I'll keep this short and go against type (well excluding this sentence ). Midichlorians rule. Lucas hasn't changed, you just don't want to admit how much of the OT was screwed up. I am l33t. I think that's basically the gist of what I would have said in a longer post.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 You have got to be kidding, Vestril. The original trilogy had a much more mystical, zen-like feel to the Force. Now we have a scientific explanation, and an incredibly poor, pea-brained one at that. I don't mind science - I like it in fact - but if Lucas is going to use science, rather than mysticism, then he'd better get his science right, or at least somewhat plausible. In light of recent comments, I'll just write off your previous statement off as a pedantic attempt at humor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacky_Baccy Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Vagabond In light of recent comments, I'll just write off your previous statement off as a pedantic attempt at humor What have I started.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 I wasn't even reffering to the nature of the Force, I was just talking about the trilogy in general. There are a lot of heavy handed plot points, and issues that aren't dealt with very well. It's just the nature of Star Wars, most of use turn a blind eye to it in the OT. I'll just take your comments as products of an overextended ego... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 It could never be over-extended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Lando Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Maybe it is a little of both. Perhaps the midichlorians help one in getting in touch with the flowing force. Take for instance Obiwan feeling a tremor in the force when the planet Alderan was destroyed how can the midichlorians in his blood know of something that happened way across the galaxy? Are they using nano-tech mobile phones? I don't think so. Obiwan knew through the force, not the midichlorians. Therefore it is a flowing force. That is all. gg owned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addrenavan Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Originally posted by Vagabond If the ability to manipulate the Force is not genetic, but rather a by-product of having lots of midi-chlorians in your blood, then it makes no sense that the son and daughter of Anakin would be a threat to the Emperor. One can not pass midi-chlorians from father to offspring in such a manner - that is not how sexual reproduction works. There is a female egg, and a male sperm, which combine and eventually lead to the fetus. Some may argue that maybe some midi-chlorians are passed from the father to the baby via his sperm. The answer would be, "of course", since it has already been stated that midi-chlorians exist in all living cells. However, it is highly doubtful that a sufficient dosage would be passed to make his progeny exceptionally endowed with midi-chlorians. And to further the argument against this analogy, if it were true then one would expect that the mere act of transfering significant amounts of ejaculate into Padme would, at least temporarily, make her much stronger with the Force - sperm only has a 24-36 hour lifespan. Conclusion: If Force ability is not genetic, then how could Luke and Leia be strong with the Force, as their father, Anakin, was? It doesn't make sense. Look, people, just because you want this midi-chlorian BS to make sense, doesn't mean it does. It is what it is, and it doesn't make sense. If you care about conclusion, then that can cloud your judgement - meaning if you want midi-chlorians to make sense, then you're vulnerable to letting that desire overrule your common-sense, and try to invent reasons, and even blind yourself to rationality, in your quest to justify this nonsensical ca-ca. Look, I'd really like for the midi-chlorian thing to make sense, but the plain truth is that it just doesn't. It doesn't fit in with the plot as we know it - George should have never gone down this path, and left it completely mysterious, with the implied genetic link to Force ability. My Friend... Lets Assume that midi-chlorians Multiply with thier host cells... Now Our Friend the sperm Meets up with our egg here, where they become a single sell, And remember these medicholoriants are hangin out inside of these cells, Now When This Zygotic Cell Starts To Multiply (And our friends the midi-chlorians multiplying with them) So every Cell Of our Pre-Child will have a midi-chlorian count about = to that of the sperm, then we will have a child with a high midi-chlorians count... Now your theory with Making Padme Strong Within the force by, pumping herup with sperm, would not work because the midi-chlorians are localized in the uterus and not within every cell of padme (I Assume that they are most important being in the neurons Which would explain why you could not artifically infuse your self with them to make yourself stronger in the force) And the Random Babies Can Come From the fact That each parents have some midi-chlorians and the combined amount being more, Also because the midi-chlorians are lifeforms (Possibly with a colective concesiouness) They could choose to Localize themself's in the sperm/egg to so the baby is born with more, Or they could choose to stay out of your eggs to produce papys that have less force -senstiveness Also when Qui-Gon Ginn Asks Annie's mother who was his father, It Implies that midi-chlorians can be passed to offspring. Also The Mitochondria (an Orgenelle of all our cells) Has it's own DNA and dose not share any DNA with the rest of the cell, It could almost be considered a Lifeform That has a symbotic realitionship with the rest of the life form, for we could not live withought it, Now how are the midi-chlorians any differn't from the Mitochondria, And Mitochondria are passed from parent to off spring. Now, Does any one see any flaws in my argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallacy Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 Addrenavan pwned. lol. The midi-chlorian counts are as follows:- Anakin Skywalker = 27,700 Darth Sidious/Palpatine (with Kyber Crystal) = 20,000 Yoda = 17,700 Shintor Beerus = 14,250 Ce Ce Denowai (the most powerful female Jedi) = 14,000 Ben/Jhon Skywalker (Luke Skywalker's son) = 14,000 Anakin Solo = 13,700 Count Dooku/Tyranus = 13,500 Kaja Sinis (the first Jedi) = 13,250 Darth Vader (after falling in the molten pit) = 13,000 Luke Skywalker = 12,500 Mace Windu = 12,000 Darth Maul = 12,000 Exar Kun = 11,700 Darth Seer (Founder of the Sith Order) =11,200 Mara Jade = 11,000 Darth Sidious/Palpatine (without Kyber crystal) = 10,700 Tylus Liv =10,700 Jedi Master Corran Horn = 10,700 Darth Bane = 10,500 Joruus C'baoth =10,350 Darth Imperius (Darth Sidious' Master) =10,300 Plo Koon =10,300 Tahari Vehlia = 10,300 Jedi Master Kam Solusar = 10,100 Obi-Wan Kenobi = 10,000 Qui-Gon Jinn = 10,000 Leia Organa Solo = 10,000 Average Jedi = 10,000 Naga Sadow = 9,400 Jedi Master Adeus Hust = 9,300 Jacen Solo = 9,000 Jaina Solo = 9,000 Jedi Master Cihgal = 9,000 Darth Rage (Sidious' apprentice after Darth Maul) = 9,000 Jedi Master Tionne Solusar = 8,500 Dezar Looger (Dagobah Dark Jedi) =8,400 Xio Jade = 7,400 Aurra Sing = 7,000 Need To be Considered for Training as a Jedi = 7,000 Padme Amidala = 4,700 Danni Quee = 4,500 Shmi = 3,300 Lando Calsarrian = 1,500 Jango Fett= 1,500 Han Solo = 1,500 Boba Fett =1,500 A minimum count of 7,000 is required before the council let you undergo jedi training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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