jarek Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 I cant believe this. Artifex is trying to help the game be better, and you wanna whine for him to stop?! Many people have come to realize that this game is boring...no longer fun. Which totally destroys the "game definition" rant above. We know what the word game means, dont be a smartass. I dont know where you get off saying Artifex is taking it too seriously. Then you use the "hes a star wars nerd" excuse as your scapegoat. What does that have to do with anything? Maybe he is, or maybe he isnt Either way hes right about the game. Hes obviously a person who enjoys good competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 In my oh-so-humble opinion (as people continually point out): I think Havoc meant that Artifex was just trying to exploit the "exploits" in the game so to say. He was only playing to dominate other players (getting more kills) and so on. He wasn't having fun in it's purest sense. I'm just trying qoute havoc here, so have mercy.... Why else would you need "instant" kills, If not to acquire large amounts of score as quickly as possible? You simply ignore the fun aspect and begin your crusade to control that which has replaced the reality which you can't control, all the while ruining it for those who have come to experience fun with a game that delivers 3D immersion and a Star Wars atmosphere. I think that this was Havoc's scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc Stryphe Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 Not to sound authoritative, but perhahps you should reread my post Jarek. Nowhere did I ever say Artifex was a Star Wars nerd, there was no scapegoat about it. I was being as forward as I can be without flaming an individual. You obviously share the same concerns as Artifex, maybe you can shed light on why it is you need "fast frags"/"quick points"/"one-hit kills". I'm curious as to how you equate speed to fun. It would seem that you just play for status/ego/psychological needs as opposed to playing for enjoyment and/or amusement. Where is it written that an elongated or lengthy duel is no longer considered fun, or if the ability to strike down an opponent in a single blow becomes overly amusing or necessary for a "great game"? please feel free to address any of the issues I've just brought to your attention, it would sooth my jangled nerves to have sort of rational explanation behind your childish antics carried out against Raven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Begger Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 I addressed this issue, and tried to answer your question in my opinion, on another thread..which looked lik you pretty much copy pasted...it was the ....news on 1.04 thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 I'm with Artifex, prehaps the quiting idea is a little extreme, but the armies of players that do the following:- 1)Run Round Backstabbing(Haven't thankfully seen this) 2)Kickers(Yup one of my mates even does it, and It annoys me) 3)Pushes+Slash Combo people(these are the ones you see the most, they push you to the ground, and stab you, these really get up my nose) 4)The Ones that ignore the Icon above your head that say "You are typing". 5)The clans that try to take over other peoples servers, we had a load who vote kicked us all when we joined our own server. man it annoys me To the person who said this, and the people who agreed--go back and read his post. He wasn't bored with other people using those moves, he was bored with using them himself. He created his own problems (this is the 'Dummies' version of Havoc's post...) I cant believe this. Artifex is trying to help the game be better, and you wanna whine for him to stop?! Many people have come to realize that this game is boring...no longer fun. Which totally destroys the "game definition" rant above. We know what the word game means, dont be a smartass. I dont know where you get off saying Artifex is taking it too seriously. Then you use the "hes a star wars nerd" excuse as your scapegoat. What does that have to do with anything? Maybe he is, or maybe he isnt Either way hes right about the game. Hes obviously a person who enjoys good competition. It's true that he wants the game to be better, but he's trying to make Raven fix a problem he creates. You say he's a person who enjoys competition? No...not really, he enjoys winning competition. If he enjoyed competition, he would work at beating people without using one hit kills. He has perfected one hit killing, and is apparently shocked to learn that it's boring. I love competition, I enjoy getting beaten, and I have never inentionally used a one hit kill (not even on those lagged out players--I don't even know how to do them). Why not, you ask? That cripples your play, you say? I don't care, I still do a decent job of drubbing other players, and I actually have fun, which is more than I can say of Artifex, and experience suggests that others who play his way will come to the same conclusions, just at a later date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal-Gon Gin Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 Originally posted by Orangina_Rouge WRONG We ( myself including ) glorify the 1.02 game cause it is not BORING Winning in 1.03 recquire to use the same tactics over an over It doesn t have the diversity 1.02 had....in short it S BORING So the problem with us is not that we re not capable to adapt to 1.03 ...we already did and it s why we find 1.02 better cause winning was FUN there I played quite a while last night, and did pretty well too (I'm still learning timing, etc.). I backstabbed once. All night. And I won most of my duels, using different tactics each time! *gasp* My last kill was an intentional throw miss that caused my opponent to come at me, meanwhile my sabre returned to me via their back. They said, "Nice move." So I dispute your claim that success in 1.03 comes from using the same tactic all game. Please don't give me the whole "1.03 is a single move spamathon" arguement--fact is the game is currently growing in popularity, and the growth (possibly related to the release of EP2) coincides with the patch. The servers would still be overrun with new players if the patch had never been released. As folks learn the game, the "diversity" in moves will grow. Of course, I don't play JKII:JO to wrack up frags (that's what Quake3 Instamush beryllium is for), I play to have fun and outwit my opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 I'm now writing this to convince other people it is possible to have fun duelling in 1.03: I play without special moves or throwing. If somebody pulls a "medium finisher" on me, i strike them in the back if i can. it is very easy to avoid, once you get the hang of it. I have yet to find a way around lunge, but i'm getting there, usually i can see it coming, and try to move behind them and sometimes strike before they can pull a backstab. As so many have already pointed out, DFA is pathetically easy to spot and very easy to avoid, it's almost a sure way to be struck if someone tries it on me. If I end up in duel versus a guy who doesn't spam a move, it mostly revolves into a fight of striking him in his side or back. Frontal attacks rarely work, as most people have found out by now, except by button-mashing or using the "block-breaker" red stance. BTW, I only use yellow stance; fast is too uncontrollable without looking like a moron, and I don't like making a 5-second swing with red, and looking like a moron. This is just my opinion. I'm not saying that i'm leet or exceptionally skilled, but i have yet to be in lower part of the scoreboard. So, for me, playing this game now is improving my lunge-counter skills and anti-assfighter moves. I only play on public servers and my local LAN, but I have met some very good opponents and it is definately not everyone who is an assfighter. This is just how i have fun, i don't spam moves and i can still kill. It IS possible. And it IS fun trying to find new ways to counter the new... ahem... tactics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 also in that definition, contest was emphasized just as much. i have fun with games. i also have fun in having conversations and watching movies. in no way are those joys comparable. at best this argument is like trying to compare basketball to dungeons and dragons and arguing reform in either directioin, and at worst its comparing the sat's to watching a movie. fine. i will throw my 2 cents in and make an abstract comparison that i think this game is really like. it is a game of decisions. now, in 1.03, its decisions without a tradeoff. if one decision is cool and the other is crap, why would you choose the crappy decision? its like choosing between getting your ass kicked and not getting your ass kicked. choosing between nothing and something. now ill get really abstract and mathy. i believe these to be law. purpose or ruleset (objective) + variety of viable options + chaos=fun basically a variety of viable ways meeting an objective. there may be a variety of ways to meet an objective, but unless they are viable, it is not fun. this can be said for movies too. if the purpose is to have a positive experience seeing a movie, and there are lots of good movies, its fun. if there is 1 good movie and a bunch of crap, then its not as fun. in jedi knight2 multiplayer, the purpose is to kill each other. the patch eliminated viable options and thus my fun. people can argue that i should just deal with it, but frankly, i had alot of fun with this game and i dont want to give up on it yet. before, it was choosing which flavor of star wars themed ice cream you wanted to eat. now its a choice between a good vanilla and a variety of things not as good, like ass. if the purpose is to have a positive experience (fun) when eating ice cream (ruleset and purpose) then choosing between a nasty flavored chocolate, nasty flavored strawberry, ass flavor, and good vinalla, its not really a variety of viable options. yes, you have bad chocolate, bad strawberry, ass, and good vinilla, which is a variety, but why would you choose anything other than vanilla if it left a sour taste in your mouth when you were hoping for a sweet one? i mean vanilla was always good and i enjoy it, but where is my good chocolate? with 1.03 you either love vanilla, or you are coughing up balls of chocolate and ass hair. and this used to be my favorite ice cream store. now, my favorite ice cream store sells really good vanilla, and really bad other stuff. if i want to have vanilla, like regular saber moves, then i will go back. but if i wanted other stuff, its not a good place to go. i used to love how guns and sabers related to each other more than anything else in the game. basically a multi-flavored bite of ice cream. if everything other than sabers sucks, why would i go back if i want alot of really good flavors in my mouth. i know people live and die by the saber and by "non-cheap play," but in reality, this store will loose all its buisness once people get tired of it. vanilla is the flavor of the month, and its all this place is serving. these moves were here before, they just werent as strong, and everything else as weak. now people have to eat their vanilla a certin way as well, other wise its too sweet. now you have to pull your punches and thats just not good enough for me i want my old choices back. i want to enjoy chocolate and vanilla and not pull my punches. this game is dying. kind of abstract, but i hope my point gets across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 How did my original post turn into *gasps* yet another "this patch sucks" thread. Lets try and stay on topic about how big a loser Artie must be in real life. Hehehehe =) I'll try to get the juices flowing again.......how is it that he has the time and effort to make a website dedicated to jk2 "strategy" post all of his "strategies", says that its the fault of Raven making the game bad, when in fact, its the PLAYERS LIKE HIM that spam all of the backwards moves...the 1.03 patch, I agree was not a very good "addition" but, ever realize that this community is full of....(for lack of a better term, I must use this) lamers? I mean, does someone point a gun to your head to make you walk around backwards trying to score a backsweep/stab? The answer is no. Artifex, I am truly glad you are leaving, one more idiot gone that takes a video game too damn seroius. Now, maybe some more of you can leave, too........ P.S. If you dont like all of the backstabs, join a server with friends, where you can implement your own rules. Saber duels (NF cept for jump) are suprisingly fun, with FRIENDS. After all, it is just a game....and Artifex....(Have to say this again) No, you aren't the Michael Jordan of Jedi Outcast.....so stop saying "retiring," your just not going to play a VIDEO GAME anymore. Retirement refers to withdrawing from one's ccupation, or conclude one's working or professional career. Until I can verify your making 5 bucks an hour at playing Jedi Outcast, try and find a better term to use, oh and stop trying to glorify yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gish the monkey Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 I have two words in the from of a question for you all and a paraphrase. Who cares? People who argue in a forum are either insane, or incredibly stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal-Gon Gin Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Nathan Wind: I can't believe you didn't mention marshmallow topping! I refure to continue any further with someone who denies how good marshmallow topping is. Here's hoping the next patch will be Neopolitan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Not quite gish, but sadly, a lot of the time, that's not far from the truth, even in a forum as great as our's (I hate to admit it). Personally, I have been gone for awhile, so I've missed a lot, but if I were Artifex, I wouldn't mind "retiring" simply to get a rest from all the flaming and crap I have to take from every single gosh darn person with an opinion on the forums (he puts up with a lot I think). And I think you'll agree, whether you agree with his IDEAS or not! I thought his site was good enough to link to, and in my book, that's all that counts, not who's "better" or who's a more popular personality with forum regulars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 artifex is just a hobbiest. i dont call people who build model airplanes loosers. and its all about neopolitan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Ego Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Artifex is good, but there is better, most players are just too damn lazy or dont give a rats ass about being on a ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgStratus Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Artifex is not the Messiah of JK2. Artifex does not claim to be the Messiah of Jk2. You guys called Artifex the Messiah of JK2. He is not going on a crusade telling everyone how sorely his presence will be missed. The reason why you guys are flaming him is because you previously placed him on a pedestal and he hasn't lived up to your expectation of being that submissive guy on the forums who just posts strategy guides for you to read, to not fully understand, then to make fun of in order to improve your own self images. Artifex has substantiated his arguments with research and logical reasoning. His research and logic is not perfect, but it is infinitely better than the inane, unsubstantiated arguments that many of you make in your posts. As far as flaming his opinions go: Face the facts, many of you are very poor at Jk2. You can't imagine what competitive play looks like, hence you are unable to grasp what he says. But before you flame him for his "newbie red spam" and his opinions, keep in mind that he's done research, has won tournaments (which is how he got his game server). When you guys can also do this (which I imagine some of you will as JK2 matures as a game), then you can talk. Until then, just take his opinions with a grain of salt and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 You guys called Artifex the Messiah of JK2. He is not going on a crusade telling everyone how sorely his presence will be missed. He seems to be, he felt the need to post in two forums that he was leaving--what do you think his motivations were? The reason why you guys are flaming him is because you previously placed him on a pedestal and he hasn't lived up to your expectation of being that submissive guy on the forums who just posts strategy guides for you to read, to not fully understand, then to make fun of in order to improve your own self images. That didn't really make sense, do you want to try again:confused: Face the facts, many of you are very poor at Jk2. You can't imagine what competitive play looks like, hence you are unable to grasp what he says. But before you flame him for his "newbie red spam" and his opinions, keep in mind that he's done research, has won tournaments (which is how he got his game server). When you guys can also do this (which I imagine some of you will as JK2 matures as a game), then you can talk. Until then, just take his opinions with a grain of salt and move on. I played the game. He played the game. I still play it, and have fun. He doesn't play it, and hasn't been having fun. I win a lot, never play in tournements. He wins almost always, has won some tournements. Now to me, this suggests that he knows a LOT about how to win this game, much more than me, and I know a lot about how to have fun with this game, much more than him. People who suggest he's a n00b can be ignored, since the obviously are hadicapped by a thorough ignorance. Personally, I have been gone for awhile, so I've missed a lot, but if I were Artifex, I wouldn't mind "retiring" simply to get a rest from all the flaming and crap I have to take from every single gosh darn person with an opinion on the forums (he puts up with a lot I think). And I think you'll agree, whether you agree with his IDEAS or not! I thought his site was good enough to link to, and in my book, that's all that counts, not who's "better" or who's a more popular personality with forum regulars. I think if you were Artifex, and that was your reasoning--you wouldn't post what was essentially a flowery and technical rant. You would just get fed up and leave. Or switch names and just play, instead of getting caught up in the silly aspects from which some of us (oh but never me:p) get caught up in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 The problem as i see it, is that in a melee game with the slightest amount of lag, the luckiest person wins. I know it sounds absurd, but look at quake, you can't go button-mashing and hope to win at the quake-heads. In jk1 and jk2, you *can* go button-mashing and hope to win against a jedi master, UNLESS he spams a move SO bad that you can't do anything against it. The problem is that while you must have good aim and good dodge skills in shooting games, it's less so in close combat-games, on the net (with lag). You can always hope to hit, and you can always hope to block the attack, but with the slightest amount of lag, it's pretty much the luckiest person who wins. So good persons in a game as this, just try to exploit the good moves. That is why 1.02 was less about skill as the luck factor was more pronounced; very easy to get lucky. In 1.03, there is more skill required because you have to work a way around the blocking and so employ the special moves to good effect, which is a bad thing IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 Yeah we really proclaimed him as being so good. If you will notice the nature of my posts, youll see i never once said he was great. Also, if you would have happen to read anything by him, maybe it be on these forums, on his site, he always says stuff about how he owned a server 15-1, or hows he so great. and using the words, retirement and video game in the same sentance....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 A skilled JKer could beat someone mashing buttons [insert ridiculously large # here] - 0. In any arena. There was that much to learn and the lag was that controllable. It was similar with 1.02, and I haven't bothered with 1.03 dueling much, but there isn't a lot of lag compensation involved in hitting someone on the ground. JK did not involve luck. Some of the best players were aussies who played on 56k and had nearly a second of lag. Saying it involved luck in any way means you never played anyone who had spent a year or 2 honing their game. A lot of us spent 4 years doing just that. Except for the RPG'd blocking, i'd assume the lag is fairly similar to how it was in 1.02; you have to lead and avoid people on the server, which means you have to be constantly thinking about your ping to it. People who assume its random because they can't unearth the patterns involved are more or less responsible for the rpg'd nature of the current blocking system. Those are the same people who complained about the 'hit detection' being random, when it totally wasnt. Just had to think with lag. Thems the breaks. Lucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 "Play. Or play not. There is no whine." That was a good summery of this entire thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diversion Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 "If you can get this worked up over a game, just imagine what how you'll deal with the real dilemmas you'll undoubtedly face sometime in your lives: Jobs/careers, layoffs, breakups, deaths, mortgages etc... " I agree even tough I was a Score Whore myself in XwA once It's always the same no matter what game it is. When I started out in XwA i did so because I've always been a fan of both "Space Sims" and Star Wars in general. For a while I played happily and didn't much care wether I won or lost. I got to pretend I was a Tie pilot and I made online friends to have fun with, what more could I wish for? Then along came Cases Ladder and WoW, suddenly all that mattered was to have ones callsign as close to the top on a websites table as possible. As the game matured some names started to get well known, these were the "masters" who always seemed to come out on top no matter what. Naturally everyone including myself wanted to be one of the few, one of the elite inner circle. Some of us asked for advice "teach me I wanna be as good as you..." In some cases a "master" was kind enough to help a less skilled person out. The problem is that not everyone can do what the "master" can. Just as in Sports, Maths, Cooking or every other aspect of life there are some who are naturally gifted and those who are not. I went to become a pretty decent player but nowhere near the best. The point is that people seem to refuse to accept that there are players out there who are and will always be far better than themselves. Next time you loose don't take it to seriously. If you still want to save your ego then remeber that some of the "masters" might not be better than you if the playing field was leveled. I was playing with 56k against a T1 guy and when he'd wasted me he said the con didn't matter much. A lot of the "masters" who slaughters newbies won't recognize that they might have a technical advantage because it would make ther acomplishments look cheap. So there, just play and have fun dammit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nill the Mean Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Heated debate... OooooOOOoooh!!! Saucy... So ArtifeX has left! Oh well, if he did indeed say that red was the best stance both pre- and after patch, then he must have been a bit of a n00b. Anyone with half a brain can see through this single-minded strategy. Just because you have range and power doesn't mean you always win. So saying that red in the best stance is just BS. I noticed that a few accusations pop up as soon as certain things are said. People who use red are dismissed as lamers, people who can't land a hit are button mashers... Why the hostility? I can hardly land a hit with 1.03, but that really is the blocking system, because I don't "mash buttons". I discussed this loads in other threads, quite simply put, I don't see how anyone can call this patch perfect when people can block things behind them every now and then. I usually have a ping of 30-60 so it isn't lag causing me to see this. I'm just waiting for 1.04... I mean, look at the poll on the main page... about 50% of people (out of 7700) say it needs tweaking... are they all button mashers and n00bs? If they are, then I will swim upstream in a river of sh*t with my mouth open, and your welcome to come and hurl verbal abuse at me whilst I do it. Quite simply, there are certain things that need to be worked out. ArtifeX left because he got bored. I can understand that. I have gotten bored with JK2 too. I'm gonna start again when (possibly if) 1.04 comes out. Untill then I'm gonna keep saying what I would like to see in 1.04. But to close up on this pointless message, ArtifeX left, who cares? I don't. Not because I didn't like him, because I don't even know him. I know he had something to do with those "code" things that were all over the place here. I was too busy playing JK2 around then to take much notice. And this whole "I am the best" stuff that he was talking about... If he can back it up, nice for him, but I still don't care. I'm a good player, I play for fun only, and I never EVER do anything to annoy other people online. Considering that 90% of the people on this planet are either A. Complete *******s or B. Totally stupid, I pride myself on the fact that people complement me on the fact that they had fun playing me, regardless of who won. To Spider Al: You won Jolt? Neat. Congratulations... makes me wonder if I should enter a competition considering I gave you a hard time the one time I ever played against you. Shame you don't remember, it was quite funny, you seemed to be making a point out of trying to kill me before anyone else. What was the point of this post again? I forgot... Blablablabla! Neeeeyuch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 thank you. we are all now more ignorant for having read that. and yes, i would call you annoying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 But it doesn't mean it's bad, i mean if you put a poll up about jk1 you would get it needs tweaking too. every gam eneeds tweaking to suit people so get a life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Originally posted by Nathan Wind thank you. we are all now more ignorant for having read that. and yes, i would call you annoying Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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