Raven's Changes in 1.03a

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Ok, the source Raven released wasn't 1.03, it was 1.03a. Basicaly it's either the next patch or what Raven is thinking of for the next patch.

 

First, I want to thank Raven for giving us the source. I also want to thank them for fixing ammo usage.

 

Here are the changes we have noticed so far...

 

1) Alt fire of fc1 and hr cost 15 ammo units, not 25 as in 1.03. Very good. CTF/TDM players will be VERY happy.

 

2) The Red stance does a lot of damage. Personaly I think that needed to be done to reduce the backswing usage. But they also...

 

3) Nerfed the backswing/backstab pretty bad. It's not worth using, especialy since...

 

4) Pull/push don't seem to be able to knockdown anymore. Or if they do it only works if the target has a low push/pull force level.

 

That's all we noticed after a hour of playing 1.03a unchanged. The rest was the same as 1.03.

 

Here is my personal thoughts on what still needs to be done...

 

1) Up the saber damage of the med and light styles.

 

2) Make drain and heal stronger. Midway between 1.02 and 1.03 would be ok.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how the duel community will take the nerfing of backstab and push/pull. It's better to add to the game, not take away from it.

 

PS Un-nerf grip back to 1.02.

[Bill_st]

Well that's good news.. the backstab had to be nerfed..

 

Still I don't know how good is nerfing push/pull as well... pushing/pulling people off the ledges is so fun ..

[Aerys]

Can you post your executables so we can try it out or is that not feasible?

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, if that's what they're thinking, that sounds good so far.

 

I have to agree with your opinion that light and medium should have damage increased. The way I see it, it's agreeable that the heavy stance should be heavy, and be defined that way by making medium and light different. But right now, keeping their current damage makes them not very favorable. Granted light stance is about nicking people, but it's still a lightsaber, getting nicked should hurt, and force the defender to think before swinging. And medium stance has swings that are very similar to heavy's, only you can combo. But since a person can block your moves very easily in 1.03, and mediums damage isn't even frightening, why not just use heavy?

 

Right now, we have the stances, but the lightsaber is still not a frightening weapon. In all the multiplayer games I've seen, people are not afraid to pull out guns. This isn't to say that I think multiplayer games should all be sabers only or guns only. But a person will just pull out a stormtrooper rifles or a repeater and rocket laucnher, and not really be worried that people have lightsabers. Becasue they know the current system cannot catch them if they run backwards or jump, and if by some wonder they do, the damage is nothing compared to his rocket or plasma balls. The only time you really fear a saber is when you're also using a saber. Otherwise, it just kind of blocks lasers. I don't know. Maybe someone understand what I'm getting at.

[MTAIRS]

What I find is blocking off oppenents using guns is VERY easy, unless they aren't using alt fire on the flak gun or alt fire on the imperial repeater thingy. I mean i can usually push back the alt fire on the flak gun, but the imerpial repeater is just way too hard to push back. I use the lightsaber mainly because I'm not a person who likes to use guns and only guns. Most people who use guns will not use the force a whole lot, mainly speed and lightning, but other than that, I really can't think why gunners would need to use the force.

 

So here's my proposal, if gunners are not afraid of lightsaber users, then why not lower the downtime of using push? It would help us defend ourselves a whole lot better as we could push back many more things and at a quicker rate. I also think that the alt fire on the flak and imperial repeater should be easier to push back. I am very good at using the force, most the time, I only use the lightsaber to just add something else for the gunners to fear me. Let's face it, it would be harder to use the force when your using a gun then it would be if you were using a lightsaber. If you ask me, a gunner using the dark and light side powers is getting on the edge of cheating.

 

So let's have the saber people be more like Jedis and the gunners be more like gunners. This could be easily balanced, just might take some times.

 

I also think that push and pull should be exactly the same, maybe lower pull a bit in terms of people falling over, but then again we be scared of someone pulling you down when they can't bs you any more?

 

Please respond on what you guys think.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

To answer a couple questions on the backswing/stabs. First, yes you can still move/rotate while doing them. It seems that the hitboxes have been reduced but it might seem that way since I was playing local on on the net. It's not a one hit kill anymore.

 

It was just about impossible to get a push/pull knockdown when the target had the opposing force maxed. This combined with the above paragraph spells the end of "assfighting" and pull +backswing combos.

 

At first I wasn't so sure I liked this, but it has grown on me. The only thing that needs to be done to the saber is make med and light stronger.

 

Anyways, I say Raven did a good job on the 1.03a. CTF/TDM are worth playing again, and sabering is more like 1.02. Prepare to face people using nothing but heavy stance again. Heavy does massive damage and can break through defenses. I think light and med should have increased damage as well.

 

1.03 Forced me to use saber more in games. There ammo was scarce and the pull + backswing was a quick and easy kill.

 

1.03a puts me back to using guns more, but not 100% of the time like in 1.02.

[AndyTX]

Really? Well thanks, this is excellent news. Thanks for taking the time to compile, test, and post this. With the amount of things I currently have on my plate, reading a few posts is the most I can hope to have time for. Thanks again.

 

I agree with making backstab worse, and I also think that limiting knockdowns a lot is a good idea. If this wasn't done, people would simply just do it over and over again, regardless of whether or not there is a 1-hit kill move. Good jobe Raven on this.

 

I also agree with your thoughts on Force stuff and saber. Drain and heal need a happy medium and every stance needs to do more damage (to make them worth using in CTF games... it just takes too long to kill someone). I'm glad they did this with Strong though.

 

I also agree with the ammo requirements going down a bit, that should rebalance things a bit. Just as a question, how much ammo did the repeater take in 1.02?

 

Also, I agree to un-nerf grip, but ONLY AS LONG AS DRAIN ISN'T TOO POWERFUL. Being able to completely drain someone AND THEN use Grip was just unbeatable.

 

Well thanks again for the info. Hopefully Raven actually releases this as a patch soon, I have some spare time coming up in a few weeks and I'd like to hit the JKII servers again

[QuietSith]

I think they just want the community to make a patch.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

1.02

 

- HR alt fire 8

- FC1 alf fire 15

 

1.03

 

- HR alt fire 25

- FC1 alt fire 25

 

1.03a

 

- HR alt fire 15

- FC1 alt fire 15

 

1.03 CTF/TDM was a joke, but 1.03a is better. It's enough though that CTF and TDM are again fit for competative play.

 

[WD]Rage was the one that actually compiled it (I don't have VS and I don't have time make a Borland .ide). We were hoping the to help Raven and the community see eye to eye before the next patch was released.

 

The changes from 1.03 to 1.03 don't seem like a lot but they greatly change gameplay for the better. It might be possible to use the 1.03a as a server side mod.

 

I'm toying with the idea of running the WD server with the 1.03a source as is. It would be sorta like an unofficial public pre1.04 beta test or something. I'll get with Rage tomorrow and see if this is possible.

[Emon]

Grip should be in 1.02? Have you ever tried playing as a lighty in 1.02? It's hell against grippers. I love how all these dark side players are so narrow minded, and they never consider how unbalanced it actually is.

 

When I play dark, I don't have any problems throwing people over the edge with grip in 1.03. It's a challenge, however, which is good. Anything cheap should be a challenge to pull off.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Bleh. Learn the to play the game before you post an opinion. All you have to do to break a grip is hit absorb. It works in 1.02 - 1.03a.

 

The only thing that made dark playable in 1.02 was drain. In 1.03, light owns all.

[MrCrusher]

Heavy does massive damage and can break through defenses. I think light and med should have increased damage as well.

 

Hmm... are you sure your just not finally learning that 1.03 red-stance has always been able to break through defences.

 

I haven't played 1.03a yet, but in No-Force dueling a couple of well placed (timed) strong attacks can take out an opponent quickly. I use red-stance alot now, works great against button mashers, and, mostly because it takes more skill (better timing) and is a greater challenge.

 

I'll bet that if you could compare the code of the two versions regarding red-stance they would be the same. But maybe not.

 

Take a look at the code in: game/w_saber.c , it appears to reflect the changes in Chang Khans post,

 

http://64.246.20.16/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54081

 

Fixing backstab is probably a good thing, as well as droping ammo consumption.The pull/backstab exploit being nerfed will add balance as well as depth to Force dueling in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately to release another patch now might do more harm than good. Now that the code is out properly moding the needed changes for a specific game type is going to be the best approach. This will let players tweak and adjust for best play value. And it will also provide "valid" feedback for Raven when the proper time comes to release another patch.

 

Its good to see that Raven is still thinking about Jedi Outcast

 

[MrCrusher]

Bleh. Learn the to play the game before you post an opinion. All you have to do to break a grip is hit absorb. It works in 1.02 - 1.03a.

 

This only works if your not dangling over a precipice. If the griper is good then most of the time it is to late to absord.....

 

 

p.s. telling someone to play the game first is getting lame Torment.

[InfErnO]

Well, MrCrusher, that's probably cause you are pretty slow. There's no reason to blame grip. Lol. absorb owns grip. Also grip is the most useless forcepowers against a lighty. Also lightning and push own grip.

[els.DarkLord]

This *sounds* great.

Fixing Backstab? Finally!... Great!

Remains to be seen if Red is again a favourable choice to almost everyone with this version. I would not like that since the good thing that 1.03 did was force some people to kinda use all stances.

 

If Medium (and Light) get some kind of power-up and are actually usefull then this 'patch' might be really god send.

 

What would be of some interest to me is how well kick and throw would fit into all this. Are they still *this* powerfull? I'd like to see some tweaking of those (kick do less damge or such) and throw = less damage and higher force-power use... well I use them a lot myself, and i think they are a tad bit too powerfull. (I don't like to win matches using throw and kick exclusively... I'm a star wars fan, i want saber fights )

What *might* (!) be cool is if you use your throw to much you might loose your saber like in single pleyer (attack1 would bring it back).

 

 

^^^ just my 2 cents.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Yes, I know red had defense breaking in 1.03.

 

I use 'a s d' to move and absorb is 'f' for me, my finger is always on it. I haven't been killed by grip or falling from grip since I started playing light.

 

As far as telling people to learn something about the game before they post, that makes perfect sense to me.

[Kypt]

About grip, yes it is easy to counter yet good grippers can toss u really quick and even if u press absorb really fast u have enough momentum to fall over the edge. Not saying at all that grip is too strong or anything. I love people to try to grip me, usually just re-fills my force pool, but I can see where this guy's comming from. He just needs to practice more, not really play the game but PRACTICE. There's a difference. Ur making him sound like an idiot when in reality he is just a bit new.

 

This sound sounds ok, I just hope that they don't make Sabers useless on CTF games...I'm a saber lover yet I love teh gun aspect of the game as well. People can't really tell me "join a saber only game" because thats not the whole JK2 feeling. I like guns and I like sabers, but I'm just hoping they make the saber into a pretty knife that only works when ur out of ammo...

[Einlanzer]

I think he means, "I hope they don't make it in to a pretty knife that only works when you're out of ammo"

 

Please return the sabers to how they were if/when you nerf the backstab. In CTF, the pull/backstabbing business isnt so bad, since getting kills isnt what the game is about. Its a moot point anyways, as it stands, with the force speed / absorb / strafe jumping combo, the flag runner moves at a million miles as hour, is impossible to hit with guns, and is immune to force powers. It's already nearly impossible to kill someone who is exploiting this bug in the engine. Unless saber damage is increased to compensate for the backstab nerf, then you have rendered lightsabers useless in CTF, and we all might as well just go play Quake3 CTF.

[AndyTX]

It's already nearly impossible to kill someone who is exploiting this bug in the engine

In my experience, if you let someone get into your base with full health and full force (especially full force), you will probably lose your flag, unless there are a LOT of defenders. It's just the way the game is set up, you have to force them to use speed/mind trick/absorb to GET TO your base, then they don't have it to get OUT of your base.

 

It is still fair, you just have to change your strategy a bit from other CTF games.

[Einlanzer]

Thats part of the problem - its also almost impossible to stop them from getting in in the first place. They dont need to get to your base, they simply need to make it halfway across the map with full force to do this. The insanely high velocity you can achieve through force speed & strafe jumping allows you to simply bypass defenders by leaping past them unless they are all standing around with force fields and force sight on to see you coming.

 

Of course, since there is no way for all defenders to have force fields in their inventories, and the attackers can respawn and speed/strafe jump back to your base in half the time it takes the force field to respawn, this strategy is also useless. Hell, it makes GUNS useless, since your ammo wont respawn before they can get back to your base.

 

Since all the flag runners have to do is console kill themselves to respawn with full force, there is no downtime from these assaults.

 

On Temple and Bespin, you can activate speed/absorb at the halfway point, make it to the other teams base, grab the flag, and be more than halfway home before it wears off.

 

Garrison is a joke. You can actually activate speed/absorb, make it to the other end of the map, grab the flag and practically get home and cap before the speed even wears off. Couple that with Absorb and the ease with which you can have 200 shields and a bacta tank on that map, and you have an invincible flag runner.

 

And of course in a public game, someone isnt going to recognize that hitting you with a push/pull/drain/whatever is going to give you enough force to re-activate speed as soon as your original wears off, should that need arise.

 

It's just as bad in organized competetive play, because instead of having just ONE joker pulling this stunt, you have 2 or 3 guys coming in from all directions.

 

The only CTF map where this ISNT a major pain in the ass is Warring Factions, because

 

a) The map is large

b) The speed your are moving at makes it easy to lose your footing or be blown into space by even a thermal detonator.

 

Due to the stupidly low cost of absorb, its practically impossible to kill people doing this unless they make a mistake and crash into a wall and you get in a lucky backstab. You cant pull them down because of absorb, you cant hit them with guns because they actually move faster than all projectiles except the Disruptor Rifle(which you cant kill them with because theres no time to charge it)

and we all know sabers do no damage with normal swings.

 

In fact, with the impending (but justified) nerfing of pull/backstab, killing people with sabers will soon be impossible in CTF if this bug is not fixed.

 

All you people who hated the DFA and hate the current pull/backstabbing nonsense should understand the problem here: This idiocy renders all the potential depth and strategy of this game useless. Defense is nonexistant. Offense consists of mindless waves of people moving at hyper speed, who are for all practical purposes invincible.

 

PLEASE, all you have to do is put a max limit on player movement speed to save CTF.

[A_Crying_Dragon]

I wasn't the first to say it, I won't be the last.

 

Absorb should not regenerate Force power while any other force power is active. IE: Sight, Mind-trick, Speed. It won't with Mind-trick or Sight, it shouldn't with speed.

 

It allows above said combonation to make someone invinceable.

I've come across people who use Speed/Absorb/Protect. Try to kill em.

 

It ain't gonna happen.

 

It turns CTF into a lemming fest.

 

Only hope you have is trip mine's/det packs and maybe rockets.. IF you lead them with em..

 

Its retarded.

 

Though thats just it, some people will do ANYTHING to win or get a kill. Reguardless how stupid or retarded it makes em look.

 

All that matters is the score. . not that it was actually 'earned'. .

[You Myst]

with all the replies on this topic, it shocks me more than a little to notice that noone has asked a few simple questions...

when someone releases source code... it tends to be the most recent set of code theyve done... ok, this part can be argued... lets continue

1.03 was released on april 30th... this was the windows version

1.03a was released on may 15th... this was the linux version...

go to whatever server browser you use(gamespy, in-game browser) and start looking at the server info... EVERY linux server is running version 1.03a(the most recent version of the game)... why are these changes not on more than half the servers out there for a version of the game that the source code was released for...

when a software developer makes any changes, even a single line of code, they increase the version number... i.e. 1.03.1(windows) or 1.03b(linux)... to explain the differance between a letter or number version... numbers are used for the native OS the program is designed for... letters are used for cross-OS ports, any non-native OS...

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Wrong.

 

They seem to have slightly differant version numbering schemes for client and server. The 1.03a server binaries is a crash fix, and is NOT the same as the 1.03a client game source released in the SDK2.0 which had gameplay tweaks.

 

There are 1.03a server bin for linux and windoze, the letters have nothing to do with the OS. The differance between (for example) 1.02b and 1.02c server binaries was a bug fix, and there were both 1.02b and 1.02c for linux and windoze.

 

Learn something before you post please.

 

Don't bother arguing with me, I've been a JK2 server admin for months and I've been messing with the 1.03a source since it was released.

[Mormegil]

He made an honest mistake - which is easy to understand considering the version numbers are the same. Relax a bit - there's no need for the high and mighty act.

[QuietSith]

Dev releases source code with tweaks = fix the game yourself community, we give up.