To Spam or Not to Spam...(long)

[intoxictd]

There is obviously a lot of mixed feelings with spammers. I've been playing this game since it was released, and seen a lot of different techniques used, and still have seen people whine about them. Spamming a single move is probably the main object of complaining out of all of these for obvious reasons.

 

For anyone that reads this thread, try to be open. I'm attempting to represent both sides of this matter.

 

First, let's start out with the definition of a spammer. A spammer is a player who exploits the "easiest move to get a quick kill". This move may be different for a variety of players, but the motive behind it is the same, quick kills. A SPAMMER IS A PERSON WHO EXECUTES NOTHING BUT THIS MOVE OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Not someone who fights you in a variety of ways and just happens to kill you with one of these moves.

 

Examples of known spams:

 

DFA--Death From Above (yes, people still spam this)

• what is it? Heavy Stance. Forward+Primary Attack. When almost complete Forward+Jump+Primary Attack
  
• Players DFA a group of enemies. Back Up. Do it again. Back up. Do it again, until all enemies are killed.
  
• Unblockable. Damage and turning technique nerfed from version 1.02, but still devastating.
  

Kick

• Run to enemy, hit jump, and jump again. Performs a backflip off the enemy, usually knocking them down. Penetrates shields and takes health away.
  
• A hard attack to counter with a high ping.
  
• A person utilizing this spam will do nothing but this. Don't count on them igniting their saber.
  

Backstab (The ridiculous way, Assfighting)

• With an enemy behind you, use light stance back+primary attack. Delivers an unblockable backstab.
  
• If executed correctly, delivers a one hit kill.
  
• Idiotic people run around a fight backwards, hoping to get lucky and delivering a kill.
  

Backsweep (The ridiculous way, Assfighting)

• With an enemy behind you, use heavy stance back+primary attack. Delivers a slow, but unblockable 360 degree sweep of lightsaber.
  
• Delivers a one hit kill.
  
• Again, Idiotic people run around a fight backwards, hoping to get lucky and delivering a kill.
  

Pull+Backstab/Backswing or Kick+Backstab/Backswing

• Uses force pull to knock your enemy down or kick them down. Turn 180 degrees, and execute a backstab or backswing.
  
• Delivers a one hit kill.
  
• A clever, yet annoying way to get a one hit kill. Knocking the enemy down renders them helpless.
  
• A high ping makes this move difficult to avoid.
  
• Most players performing this move use absorb to block any sort of force counter.
  

Mind Trick/Backstab or Backswing

• Uses Jedi Mind trick to sneak up on enemies. Turn Around and deliver a fatal one hit blow, without them knowing it any better.
  
• Rarely spammed. Hard to execute for enemies constantly moving.
  

And the newbie spams:

 

Grip (Yes, it is quite amazing, and stupid, that I actually see people try to spam this. It leaves them open for an easy attack)

• Dark Side force power. Chokes enemy and lifts them off the ground.
  
• This move is not spammed much since it is easy to counter. Force push/pull, or absorb will stop it. Newbie Spam. I've only seen this on FFA servers with drop-offs. A player just stands in one spot waiting for an enemy to get in range.
  

Force Push/Pull Spam

• Neutral Push Power that either throws your enemy, or draws them toward you.
  

Force Lightening

• Dark Side force power. Throws out numerous lightening bolds to electrocute your enemy.
  
• People hang out around a fight, wait for damage to be dealt, and deal the fatal blow with a bolt of lightening.
  

Before I go on, in order to write this thread, I did nothing but spectate For three days in several servers of each game type. Each one had a spammer of one of the types above. Through this research, I was able to decipher what the problem with spamming really is. I myself have never whined or complained about spamming, because like every move in this game, they are counterable, though they may be rare. I still find it annoying, in most cases, but not enough to ruin the fun of the game for me. To me, multiplayer gaming is about finding a way to beat an opponent, no matter what the situation may be. With this said, I can tolerate spamming, because it gives me a challenge. I say only that it is annoying because, I like variety. I like running into a multiplayer opponent who contributes his variety of strategy and techniques in a fight. That's what multiplayer gaming is about, how an individual will always fight differently than everyone else, and you have to be skilled enough to be able to put up a good fight, no matter what series of moves they put on you. Spamming is just plain boring. If I wanted to play a game dry on human variety, I'd play single player. You remind me of brainwashed robots, programmed for only one move. You want to say its a skill, but in my mind, you're no different from the newbie running around the map holding down the attack button. You may be getting a lot of frags, but to me, how you got those frags shows how good you really are. Exploiting the one hit kill over and over again is not something anyone should take pleasure in. You got 50 more kills than everyone else, because you spammed, shows no skill in adapting to a combat situation, and therefore shows no skill at all. It's really nothing to be proud of.

 

With all of this said, and after my research today, I've decided there are a few different kinds of spammers. Here's a list of them, and a "level of respect" they should receive.

 

#1 The "Newbie" Spammer

Respect Level: None

These people run around the whole game chasing people and just pulling, pulling, pulling, until they succeed in knocking someone down. Then there is the one hit move, and a frag for them. They like to boast, using the walk toggle to walk around and taunt people as if they are a god. They like to send messages like "You are no match for me," and "You all Suck," and really stupid stuff like "Now that I know how to spam, I'm unstoppable." Get over yourselves! They show no sense of knowledge in the game except for this one move. Why, you might be asking. Cause "WOW!" They may get a lot of frags, but they sure suck when somebody knows how to counter there moves. A lot of times I've seen these people run away from a fight. A lot of times they just keep trying their "all-impressive move" to no avail. And about every time they face anyone who can counter their moves, they die in a quick fight. I've seen a lot of these people get gripped, and not even know to push to counter it. They sat there in the air and swung their lightsaber uselessly. These newbies are also the kind that like to run into fights and just spam to kill everyone.

 

#2 The "Where is the Weak" Spammers

Respect Level: Low

These people run around a map just Spamming anyone who is low on kills. They take advantage of the weak. A lot of times, they target those named "Padawan." Any time they see someone who is a challenge, they run off. If they have to fight a "skilled opponent" they switch to regular fighting, and usually are quite decent themselves. If you are good, what the hell do you chase around the "newbies" for? If your frag count isn't high enough, do you go to bed crying? Again, you should base your pride on how you win a fight, not how many kills you get.

 

If the above two "types of spammers" complain about people whining about spamming in these forms, I will make it my sole purpose to flame you, let everyone know your name, and how pathetic you actually are, add your player name to my player list, and solely hunt you down everytime you are online. Perhaps then, you'll truly know what annoying is. I know who a lot of you are, just by spectating and following you the whole game.

 

#3 "Just Plain Spammers"

Respect Level: Moderate

These people just Spam, but never chase people down. They like a good fight, and will actually fight another spammer. They actually utilize this move as an actual move, not as a way to get quick kills. Sometimes, they change their "variety of spam" if the one they are using is not working. If that is countered, they'll work for their kill. This shows thought and some level of strategy. These are the "type of spammers" that if you approach to fight, don't try the stupid stuff, cause they'll get you for it. If they die, they often congratulate the player who killed them.

 

#4 "Strategic Spammers"

Respect Level: High

Don't go looking for a fight. Usually play "Capture the Flag," "Capture the Ysalamari," or "Jedi Master." If you gang up on them, they'll get ya. If they're protecting their flag, they'll get ya. If you have their flag, they'll get ya. They use spamming as a sort of protection. In other words, they use the most reliable method to protect what is most important their team. These people tend to use Jedi Mind trick to sneak up on the enemy's base and get the flag back. This is a great strategy, and gets the job done usually. They usually leave the minor fights alone. Kills are not important to them, just ensuring their team will win is.

 

Now again, I said in the beginning I was supporting both sides of the argument. Every FTP game has such a devastating move that will be spammed. The game designers put that move in there for a reason, though it may not to be spammed, the move is there, and you most know a way to counter it. If you are going to run up to someone you know is a spammer, he kills you, and you run back up to him, get killed again, and each time, you tried the same ineffective maneuver, you are just plain stupid. Spamming will happen. Whining about it, or posting threads that name out people will not solve it. It is a perfectly legal move in this game, and you MUST figure out how to stop it. As said over and over, every move has a counter. It may be difficult to do successfully every time, but it is the truth. Now if you have a high ping, most of these counters will not work, because you need almost perfect timing for them to work efficiently. Here are a few counters.

 

Grip Spammer (though rare)

• Absorb, force push, force pull, drain, lightsaber throw.

Force Lightening

• Absorb, drain

Force pull/push

• Absorb, drain, stay still
  
• If you don't want to get pushed off a ledge don't jump!
  
• Absorb protects about 70% of the time.

Backstab

• Has to be a precise hit, so you can dodge.
  
• Force Protect works some times. Rage won't let your heath drop below 1

Backsweep

• Dodge, Rage, force protect

Pull/Backstab or backsweep

• Get up and out of the way immediately by pressing "jump key" fast.
  
• Absorb stops pull

Kick

• Light Stance Forward Lunge (forward+crouch+attack)Will Stop a kick sometimes, if timed right, otherwise, if you keep doing this, you'll probably kill them quicker.

 

A combination of the above counters will work on every spammer. So work on defeating them. Whining gets you nowhere. Spamming will also defeat them

 

This about sums it up. Remember, it's only a game, and moves will be spammed. If you are not having fun, stop playing. I personally don't spam, for reasons I stated above, but I still have a good time. Oh, and one last thing...

 

Spamming in:

 

Duels: You are lame. A duel is a fight between two people. People lightsaber duel to clash with lightsabers, not to be kicked around. This is not "Karate Kid"

If you can't actually duel, get out.

FFA/Team FFA: Wow your 58 kills is so impressive. Did you actually fight any of them?

CTF/CTY: Depends, were you doing it for the good of your team, or just because you can't do anything else? Kills don't matter, remember.

Jedi Master: Gotta do what you Gotta do. You are the Jedi vs. guns. Anyone that complains you are using the force or your lightsaber is the lame one.

 

Defense for non-spammers to spammers:

 

It's a freaking Star Wars game. People want to have Saber Fights like in the movies. Are you really going to expect them not to complain when they can't even touch you before you pull em down and kill them? If you can't understand this, maybe you shouldn't be playing.

[Vestril]

Probably the most well researched thread on spamming written for Jedi Knight II, it brings up a lot of good points in an organized, intelligent way. Thanks for your time

[FunClown]

How is grip spam? It is so easy to get out of.

 

The reason why you say backstabbing is spam is because it is unblockable, but grip is so easy. You should get rid of it from your list.

[intoxictd]

As I said in my post, spamming (from what I know of) is a move done over and over again to get a kill. I know that it probably isn't really spammed all that much. But while spectating, I did witness 3 people doing it in several servers. 2 in NS_Streets, and One in CTF_BESPIN. Two of these , all they did was stand on a bridge and wait for someone to walk into their range, grip them and drop them off the edge. Now, I do not know if it was newbies on both sides, but the "gripee" did nothing to get out of the grip. Even if the "gripper" was countered and killed, he went right back to the same spot and did it again. There was no attempt from him/or her to fight any other way. They killed or got killed, but all they do is grip. The other one ran into fights just trying to grip everyone.

 

I do understand what you're saying, however, my motive for including this on my list, was so no one would come on and post, "better add grip to the list, because there are a few people on the servers I play on....". I couldn't spectate on every last server to find out if there were more than these three. That's why I indicated it was rarely used (and probably used by newbies), because it is easy to counter. They are still spamming it though.

[Blank1234]

....

 

You have no right to tell people how they should or shouldn't play this game. If it's allowed within the game parameters, it's legal. You say kickers in duel games should learn how to duel? I say flailing blue stance newbies should learn how to kick.

 

In case you didn't know, winning = fun for the vast majority of people. If 58 people are willing to die to "spam", it's not the spammers fault they died, it's the players on the recieving end for not knowing how to counter it.

 

btw, you forgot gun spamming. (sarcasm) Prideful players would let 5+ flailing saberists go at it for 10 minutes before getting a kill. But those mean spammers would shoot them with guns and ruin their "movie-like headless chicken with laser glow stick FFA" (/sarcasm).

 

Blah... holier-than-though attitude is so annoying

 

Blank

[Twins of Doom]

heh, yet another great article by intocixtd

 

mind if I add it to the strategies section of my site like on your CTF guide?

 

i'll make a more in depth reply later.......my bus is here and i gotta run for school

[intoxictd]

Blank1234,

 

I wonder if you actually read any of my post except for the ending. If you had, you would have seen that I defended most spammers. You're probably one of those people who read the ending of a book, just so you can tell everyone "you must have, you know how it ended" I also included something like "it is a perfectly legal move, you must find a way to counter it." Hmm, sounds just like the whole damned essay I was telling spammers how they are supposed to play the game, with my "holier than thou attitude".

 

In case you didn't know, winning = fun for the vast majority of people. If 58 people are willing to die to "spam", it's not the spammers fault they died, it's the players on the recieving end for not knowing how to counter it.

 

Gee, I do believe I said this, too. As a matter of fact, I said anybody who walks up to a spammer and tries the same useless techniques, is just an idiot. About the fun thing, it's a multiplayer game, EVERYONE is supposed to have fun, not just those who are winning. Maybe to your surprise, it seems more like a "vast majority" of people whine about spammers, because their one-hit- kill-moves, over and over again, are taking away any of the excitement that these people are looking to enjoy. I DID DEFEND THE SPAMMERS, TOO. In any game there will be spammers, and you have to live with it. However, if you can't understand how spammers are ruining the fun of the game, perhaps your username suggests whats going on in your head.

 

So please, try reading the whole article. If you did, read it again, you obviously missed a lot of good points that I made.

 

Good Day to you.

[Brujah]

The best thread I have ever read at these forums (last two weeks:cool: )

 

It is surprising how much I can recognize with the stuff you wrote, over time I was playing.

I spammed backstab like crazy, for two or three days until I mastered it. Like those lame spammers:) hehe and I usualy had a hight Frag, but I got killed in duel easily.

 

Now I have mastered most of these and sometimes when I play FFA I am "just plain spammer".

I see only reason to spam a move ( actually three moves/combos : pull/backstab, backstab, grip + something) to execute player that anoyes me, or when i want desparately save my life:)

For example i execute gunners in FFA, I hate them. I execute people gripping me. I execute people who offended me and i execute my best friend Sertis, to make him learn counters.

 

Now is that wrong?

 

This article should be somewhere on official place. It offers great insight into the problem.

 

BTW: Still looking for some kind of Sith Mentor

[mima kake]

well.. that suits it up all nicely

[Wallace]

Producing one of those 'tricks' every minute isn't that bad, but people doing it constantly is lame.

The force powers and moves are there to be used, you can't expect everyone to just use the normal moves and nothing else, that would piss the makers of the game, because they haven't got paid for overwork.

If someone walks backward constantly, then I can imagine someone getting pissed off, but maybe it's your own lack of skill to block these attacks and counter.

 

Tip:

If someone keeps walking backward, use a pull, knock him down, turn around and do a backstab yourself, THAT'll teach them to walk like a chicken.

[Twins of Doom]

Okay, first of all

intoxictd, you never answered my question;)

(above this)

 

second of all, excellent article

 

For anyone that reads this thread, try to be open. I'm attempting to represent both sides of this matter.

 

finally, somebody else that's in the middle, everybody seems to either be way on one side of the spectrum or way on the other side....it's kinda annoying...i like how you represented a neutral ground

 

This article should be somewhere on official place. It offers great insight into the problem.

well, i'm trying to get it on my site's strategy/guides/articles area:P

 

Duels: You are lame. A duel is a fight between two people. People lightsaber duel to clash with lightsabers, not to be kicked around. This is not "Karate Kid"

If you can't actually duel, get out.

FFA/Team FFA: Wow your 58 kills is so impressive. Did you actually fight any of them?

CTF/CTY: Depends, were you doing it for the good of your team, or just because you can't do anything else? Kills don't matter, remember.

Jedi Master: Gotta do what you Gotta do. You are the Jedi vs. guns. Anyone that complains you are using the force or your lightsaber is the lame one.

 

really liked that, so true...especially jedi master.....it's ****ing everybody else on you, you gotta do what you gotta do

and for CTF/CTY i've seen to many people who try to just get kills...if their doing it to help out the team it's good but..if not it's just stupid

 

All in All: Great Article!!!

[intoxictd]

Go Ahead, Twins of Doom. You really do not need to ask me for permission to put something on your website. If you feel that something I said is worth putting on a website, and it can help people, feel free. Yes, it would be nice, though, for you to give some credit, not that I really care, I know what I wrote. It's just respectful, and I appreciate that.

[Twins of Doom]

Originally posted by intoxictd

Go Ahead, Twins of Doom. You really do not need to ask me for permission to put something on your website. If you feel that something I said is worth putting on a website, and it can help people, feel free. Yes, it would be nice, though, for you to give some credit, not that I really care, I know what I wrote. It's just respectful, and I appreciate that.

 

don't worry, i do give you credit i call it (for example with your ctf one

"intoxictd's CTF rules")

 

and for this i'll probably call it

"too spam or not to spam, by intoxictd"

 

thanks;)

[Blank1234]

"I wonder if you actually read any of my post except for the ending. If you had, you would have seen that I defended most spammers."

 

Defending spammers?....

 

"Spamming is just plain boring. If I wanted to play a game dry on human variety, I'd play single player. You remind me of brainwashed robots, programmed for only one move. You want to say its a skill, but in my mind, you're no different from the newbie running around the map holding down the attack button. You may be getting a lot of frags, but to me, how you got those frags shows how good you really are. Exploiting the one hit kill over and over again is not something anyone should take pleasure in. You got 50 more kills than everyone else, because you spammed, shows no skill in adapting to a combat situation, and therefore shows no skill at all. It's really nothing to be proud of."

 

Riiiight. Excepting the fact that this game has spammable moves is hardly defending a persons right to spam. Belittling a person because on how he decides to play (calling him a robot/newbie, etc) is hardly what I'd consider defending.

 

"You're probably one of those people who read the ending of a book, just so you can tell everyone "you must have, you know how it ended" I also included something like "it is a perfectly legal move, you must find a way to counter it." Hmm, sounds just like the whole damned essay I was telling spammers how they are supposed to play the game, with my "holier than thou attitude"."

 

I'll let your words speak for me If these don't strike you as holier than thou, or play this way not that way.... then nothing I can say will change ur mind anyways.

 

 

--If you are good, what the hell do you chase around the "newbies" for?

 

--If the above two "types of spammers" complain about people whining about spamming in these forms, I will make it my sole purpose to flame you (Etc)

 

--Spamming will happen. Whining about it, or posting threads that name out people will not solve it. (I threw these 2 in there just to point out the hypocricy)

 

--If you can't actually duel, get out. (refferring to kicks in duels)

 

--Wow your 58 kills is so impressive. Did you actually fight any of them?

 

--Depends, were you doing it for the good of your team, or just because you can't do anything else? Kills don't matter, remember.

 

--If you can't understand this, maybe you shouldn't be playing.

 

 

"However, if you can't understand how spammers are ruining the fun of the game, perhaps your username suggests whats going on in your head."

 

Great defense for spammers there. Brand all spammers with ruining the fun of the game.... nice. You'll never be my lawyer

 

Blame the makers for putting in a highly effective spam friendly move, not the people who exploit it just to be competetive.

 

 

"So please, try reading the whole article. If you did, read it again, you obviously missed a lot of good points that I made."

 

I did read the entire thing, a few times actually... and I saw very few good points worth mentioning The counters to spam weren't all entirely accurate either

 

Rage won't protect from backstab if your health is too low. Backstab hits multiple times... and while you can't die while raged from HP damage (positive effect) the multi-hit of the backstab will probably kill you if you don't get out of the way fast enough anyways.

 

Absorb counters push/pull 100% of the time. As long as it's on, you won't get thrown around like a rag doll.

 

"Good Day to you."

 

You too

 

Blank

[C'jais]

Excellent article!

 

Though in my mind, there's no middle ground in this matter: the spammers and the rest. If you show lack of creativity in such an evil way, you deserve to die. Just my not-so-humble opinion.

 

And I know you didn't want to include counters for everything, but IMO throw-spam and lunge-spam are some of the worst spams available and also some of the most used ones. I prefer sentencing to death by kicking, the wise choice here.

 

However, do you, intox, consider using the normal moves spamming? I only use regular saberswings, and generally succeed very well. I don't know if there's such a thing as regular-swing-spam, but I just wanted you opinion.

 

All this normal swinging is, of course, only if I play against the usual, decent players. Anyone brutally spamming, gets sidekicked to death (the only spam i have mastered...). Also a guy performing a yellow special or DFA gets a sidekick for 20 dam, or a slash for 30 dam.

 

And blank1234, spamming is ruining the fun for others. I don't care if it will help you on your quest for frags, but it sure won't improve the mood of your opponents. I've used this anology before: Compare multiplayer to real sports. Do you curse at your opponents and kick them, if things are going badly in your game of soccer? No, people usually play nice, and that gets you respect, NO MATTER if it's competetive playing or not. Grow up.

 

But all in all, certain moves in this game are flawed and abused, it's your own f*cking problem to acquire the damn self control, in order NOT to use them. Some people have it, others do not.

[fuzzrox]

great read Intoxictd

you have good points on both sides.

I enjoy a good fight , alot of kills are great

when you get them , but a good duel is just

as much fun, win or lose.

 

can't we all just get along!

[Blank1234]

"And blank1234, spamming is ruining the fun for others. I don't care if it will help you on your quest for frags, but it sure won't improve the mood of your opponents. I've used this anology before: Compare multiplayer to real sports. Do you curse at your opponents and kick them, if things are going badly in your game of soccer? No, people usually play nice, and that gets you respect, NO MATTER if it's competetive playing or not. Grow up. "

 

 

Horrible arguement. For starters, you have to accept that fact that spam IS apart of jk2. Spamming moves in jk2 is compariable to kicking the ball in soccer. It's the most effective way to win and it's accepted as part of the game (or should be). I don't get mad when people play within the rules of the game, neither should you. As far as spamming ruining the fun of others.... maybe they should learn the rules of the game before complaining about people who know it better than them.

 

And I'm plenty grown up... thanks

 

 

"But all in all, certain moves in this game are flawed and abused, it's your own f*cking problem to acquire the damn self control, in order NOT to use them. Some people have it, others do not."

 

You consider them flawed/abused. Raven sees differently, otherwise a patch would be in the works. Again, except the rules of the game or go play another game that fits your needs. You're basically asking me please don't kick the ball (sticking with the soccer analogy) to score points, but only headbutt it in the goal to score. I don't need to limit my options on how to kill guys in jk2, you need to expand your defensive options in countering "spam" moves.

 

Blank

[leXX]

Excellent article. Well researched and thought out.

 

Spamming is just plain boring. If I wanted to play a game dry on human variety, I'd play single player. You remind me of brainwashed robots, programmed for only one move. You want to say its a skill, but in my mind, you're no different from the newbie running around the map holding down the attack button. You may be getting a lot of frags, but to me, how you got those frags shows how good you really are.

 

My thoughts exactly. This is why I only really play NF SO Duel now. You very rarely get spammers and if you do come across a spammer one2one, they are very easy to kill or get booted anyway.

 

Lexx

[crazyplaya73]

Ha, I wonder where I fall. I don't spam one single move over and over against someone unless they do it to me.

 

I found that the most fun way to beat a spammer is to beat them at their own game. The best part is when they call you lame for using the move. I'm talking about n00bs here not skilled players that can use all of the moves in the game.

 

One thing to remember is if someone sees that you are easily beat using one particular move they will keep using it on you until you prove that you can counter it. That's common sense. Once you show them that you can counter the move they'll have to change their tatics if they want to win. And if they don't well they should be very easy to beat.

 

Predictability will get you killed fast in this game. You have to abapt and be able to use all of the moves the game has to offer. N00b spammers are slightly annoying buy they are easy to beat.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Blank1234

Horrible arguement. For starters, you have to accept that fact that spam IS apart of jk2. Spamming moves in jk2 is compariable to kicking the ball in soccer. It's the most effective way to win and it's accepted as part of the game (or should be). I don't get mad when people play within the rules of the game, neither should you. As far as spamming ruining the fun of others.... maybe they should learn the rules of the game before complaining about people who know it better than them.

 

And I'm plenty grown up... thanks

 

You consider them flawed/abused. Raven sees differently, otherwise a patch would be in the works. Again, except the rules of the game or go play another game that fits your needs. You're basically asking me please don't kick the ball (sticking with the soccer analogy) to score points, but only headbutt it in the goal to score. I don't need to limit my options on how to kill guys in jk2, you need to expand your defensive options in countering "spam" moves.

 

First of all, Raven already made a patch that limited spamming to a certain degree, the infamous 1.03. That clearly shows they disapprove of doing the same move again and again. Can't debate that.

 

That means spamming is discouraged by Raven, therefore they don't see the game revolving around spamming special moves. Which shows they disaprove of your opinion on spamming "is a vital part of this game, and really should be".

 

As for my soccer anology:

Kicking the ball in soccer is like doing a normal move in this game (normal, as in, regular swing). Tackling a person and causing general injury or cursing to lower the morale is like a special move in this game (special, as in lunge fx). Now, tackling a person in soccer is a part of the game, and so are the bad players who do it all the time, just for that extra scary effect, and because they like bullying. Most people usually don't like them, though you may differ. You with me?

It's alright to do a special move, but doing it all the time is not what it is meant for. I'm saying it's within the rules, but the rules can't judge bad behaviour that well.

And neither can Raven stop idiots running amock in this game. And it's really easy to spam in this game and win, compared to other games.

 

I guess it's all a matter of opinions, but in real life, the opinion would be: bad behaviour=disrespect. Not so in this game, which is a shame.

[intoxictd]

BLANK1234,

 

You started out your argument against my post with good basis, and an opinion making claims that made a halfway decent(some of it was off) argument. However, with each post after that, you have fallen completely off the edge. I am assuming that you spam regularly, and that's why you keep putting up your argument, but your senseless remarks now are just supporting the lack of respect for yourself and others in this game.

 

Your last analogy made completely no sense, at all. First of all, spamming is using a legal and lethal move used over and over again, just to win. Kicking a soccer ball? Come on, use an analogy that will actually work on the subject. Kicking a soccer ball is the basic, and non-lethal approach to that sport, like a regular lightsaber clash in JKII. It's tedious, and does not guarantee success everytime you do it, but that's what the fun of games and sports are. That's also why they have rules and penalties in sports, to ensure that the game is played fairly and respectfully. Otherwise it would be, hey our team scored, the other team scored, our team scored, the other team scored, our team scored, so on and so on. Rather boring.

 

A better analogy to sports would be, the move spammers use is like the slam dunk in basketball (a rather weak sport I think). It's great for show, and unstoppable if executed right. If anyone tries to stop it, they usually get slapped with some penalty. With this said and known, do you see everyone slam dunking everytime they get the ball? You can rarely miss, like a regular shot, so why doesn't everyone do it all the time. It's called proffesionalism. Now professionalism doesn't just apply to "Pro-Sports", but to everything in life, you can reduce that term down to "respect".

 

Now there aren't any penalties in Jedi Knight II, and I don't think there ever should be. However, there should be atleast some kind of restraint for doing the JKII "slam dunks" over and over again, for the good of the game, for the good of you, and for the good of the rest of the players.

 

Am I telling people how to play the game, NOT AT ALL. Do what you want. I don't care, it's a freaking game. Do I have a right to express my opinion, every bit. Does everyone have a right to bitch, everbit.

 

I started this post just to try and show how many different kind of spammers there are, how to stop them, and how to still have fun in this game. Some spammers out there desrve all the respect in the gaming world, most don't. I am just plain tired of hearing bitching from moth side of the matter, so I wrote this article.

 

Everyone have fun.

[Blank1234]

"First of all, Raven already made a patch that limited spamming to a certain degree, the infamous 1.03. That clearly shows they disapprove of doing the same move again and again. Can't debate that."

 

Show me the change that proves raven disapproves of spam. For starters, the pull/backstab combo *was* in 1.02 and it wasn't changed. If raven really wanted to limit spamming, they'd put a timer on all moves before you can re-execute them. THAT would prove they wanted to limit spamming. Nerfing DFA (which I assume is what you're reffering to mostly) hardly limited spamming.

 

I think the soccer analogy is getting a bit out of hand Regardless, I don't qualify what most people consider spam as "bad behavior". It's not like spam is that difficult to counter in the first place. One of the big problems I have is the catergories the original author placed "spammers" in. Not every spammer is some l33t guy who trash talks every 2 seconds. Sometimes it's just a new player or something who saw something effective and is trying to mimick it as best he can.... he's only trying to have fun, and getting kills and seeing your name NOT in last place tends to qualify as fun for alot of people. I hardly consider that bad behavior.

 

"am assuming that you spam regularly, and that's why you keep putting up your argument, but your senseless remarks now are just supporting the lack of respect for yourself and others in this game. "

 

Of course. Baseless acqusations are alot easier to make than thought out arguements I don't consider myself a spammer. I'll do whatever it takes to win in a given situation. If that means pull/backstabbing someone who can't counter it.... so be it. If that makes me a spammer in your book, I could care less.

 

The only reason I responded to this thread is because I felt you weren't giving an unbiased opinion. Your claims to be defending spammers is completely ridiculous, and I called you out on it.

 

The soccer analogy wasn't my idea I was just going with the analogy given to me. Blame that guy for starting it, not me

 

As for your analogy..... your assumption (in your analogy) is that spamming will always score. That's simply not the case.

 

"It's tedious, and does not guarantee success everytime you do it"

 

Neither does spamming.

 

Not your basketball analogy lol.....

 

" better analogy to sports would be, the move spammers use is like the slam dunk in basketball (a rather weak sport I think). It's great for show, and unstoppable if executed right. If anyone tries to stop it, they usually get slapped with some penalty. With this said and known, do you see everyone slam dunking everytime they get the ball? You can rarely miss, like a regular shot, so why doesn't everyone do it all the time. It's called proffesionalism. Now professionalism doesn't just apply to "Pro-Sports", but to everything in life, you can reduce that term down to "respect"."

 

Ever heard of an offensive foul? Dunks get rejected, albeit not alot since their's a chance it can draw a foul. Dunks also tend to be on breakaways when their's an open lane to the hoop. You also aren't allowed to freely WALK to the hoop. Passes get intercepted, steals, etc.

 

I've never heard of shaq not going for a dunk because of professionalism. Maybe we should stop with the analogies and just stick with jk2

 

Regardless, your analogy is FALSE anyways! Spam is hardly unstoppable, as you've already listed a bunch of working counters for it. That throws that whole arguement out the window

 

"Am I telling people how to play the game, NOT AT ALL. Do what you want. I don't care, it's a freaking game. Do I have a right to express my opinion, every bit. Does everyone have a right to bitch, everbit."

 

I consider telling people to get out of a dualing server if they kick alot, telling people how to play. Express your opinion all you want, just don't lie to the reader and claim you are completely nuetral in the matter, then claim all spammers are ruining the game. That's hardly a swedish stance

 

"I am just plain tired of hearing bitching from moth side of the matter, so I wrote this article."

 

As you already said, "Does everyone have a right to bitch, everbit."

 

I hope I put enough smileys in that post to keep the tension to a min.

 

Blank

[GooglyMoogly]

Great post....

 

Blank....go home.

 

Yeah theses moves are in the game..yeah you can use them, but at the end of the day when you have no friends and keep getting kicked from the servers you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

Repeated use of ANY move is lame in my book..even if all you do is run around in light stance twirling like mad and dont even kill anyone it's still spam and it sucks.

 

If you want to fight and throw these moves in every once in a while then thats cool, bring it on.

 

The community itself has started to separate on these lines. We will end up with servers where spam is acceptable and those where it isn't. The difference being if you go to one where it isn't you'll soon find yourself staring at the "Server Disconnected" screen.

[thekolonel]

great post, dude. encapsulated a lot of my thoughts.

 

generally, i don't care how people choose to play. i figure everyone's paid the $40 or $50 bucks (in theory) and they are entitled to spam as much or as little as they want. you cannot blame someone for exploiting the extremely powerful moves they've been given.

 

my issue lies with the game design itself. take any of the modern shooters, like medal of honor for instance, and it's got spammers too: people who always blast away with the rocket launcher, those suicide bomber guys who unload their nades in the middle of the enemy squad, etc. the difference is that the game design rewards the truly skilled players over the spammers every time. the guy who works with his teammates and generally tweaks his strategy every round will end up at the top of the score board. the point leaders are so good it's scary.

 

not so in JKII.

 

i've put many hours into 1.03 and i've gotten quite good, to the point that i usually win one-on-one vs the avg online player and don't start to break a sweat until i'm outnumbered 3-to-1. i've learned the different stances, all the special moves, all the combinations. i've learned to switch tactics in the middle of a fight to throw my enemy off balance. i am proficient with all the tools available to me: saber, force powers, weapons, etc. you get the point.

 

when i play team ffa saber only, as an example, i'm usually in the top 2 or 3 but there's always that top guy who has twice as many kills as the next one in line. when i get this guy alone or with one of his teammates i usually cream him every time. so i pop into spectator mode to find out what magic this guy has that i'm not seeing and, of course, i find out that all he does is wade into a crowd and spam backstab/backsweep. i've confirmed this by spamming the move myself and moving to the top of the board.

 

the problem is that the special moves are so powerful and so easy to use that there's little payoff for a heavy investment in game skills. what's the point of mastering saber combat if any idiot can get to the top of the scoreboard by running backwards into a crowd while swinging wildly? shouldn't good game design reward skill instead? isn't it perverse that anyone should be rewarded for wading into combat with their backs turned?

[intoxictd]

Once again Blank1234, you are falling of the mark.

 

One of the big problems I have is the catergories the original author placed "spammers" in. Not every spammer is some l33t guy who trash talks every 2 seconds. Sometimes it's just a new player or something who saw something effective and is trying to mimick it as best he can.... he's only trying to have fun, and getting kills and seeing your name NOT in last place tends to qualify as fun for alot of people. I hardly consider that bad behavior.

 

Gee, didn't I place spammers into 4 categories, with the last two deserving respect? You don't call that "defending"? Your above statement only applied to the first category....the "Newbie Spammer". I never said every spammer trash talks. I also indicated that some of the more "respectful" spammers usually congratualate their "defeaters", obviously realizing their unstoppable move was not as effective as they thought it might be.

 

I don't consider myself a spammer. I'll do whatever it takes to win in a given situation. If that means pull/backstabbing someone who can't counter it.... so be it. If that makes me a spammer in your book, I could care less.

 

Sorry, but if you do nothing but the pull/backstabbing thing over and over again, to every opponent, you are a spammer. Does it work? Yes. Well, are you, now, the best player in the game? Could be, might not be. If you don't use it over and over again, you are not a spammer.

 

your assumption (in your analogy) is that spamming will always score.

 

Never said that.

 

Regardless, your analogy is FALSE anyways! Spam is hardly unstoppable, as you've already listed a bunch of working counters for it. That throws that whole arguement out the window

 

A lot better than your "ridiculous" analogy, and thank you, your statement made my point for me. It's not FALSE. I even said that in my analogy, with..

 

and unstoppable if executed right.

and...

"It's tedious, and does not guarantee success everytime you do it"

and to include your point...

Ever heard of an offensive foul?

 

You seem very determined to argue with me. "Why?" I wonder?