Why JKII is better than SoFII ... a single level comparison

[txa1265]

One night on vacation last week after the kids went to bed, and while my wife was reading, I played a bit of SoFII followed by a bit of JKII. I have played both through before, JKII ~4 times, and once fully through SoFII.

 

What struck me was that in SoFII I was playing the Columbia levels, and in JKII the Yavin swamp. Both are visually stunning, with some obviously shared graphic details. However, that similarity only makes the difference in gameplay more glaring.

 

SoFII in Columbia shows off some of the reasons it's such a cool game. Enemies work together, seem to set up strategies, throw grenades, shoot from cover, and so on. Some times the AI is too smart - to the point of calling it AI cheating, a common complaint. The hit detection is such a joy in BOTH games. The killer is the mega-ultra-extremely linear nature of the levels. Mountains you can't climb on one side, cliff on the other. If someone shoots at you, go that way. The only occasional 'side-path' is for a gun emplacement - go get your pickups, walk back and wait to be shot at some more. It is indicative of what dooms the game to sub-90% score land.

 

JKII on Yavin - at first I was annoyed by the FPS hit on my Dell Inspiron 8100, but since finding a good setup for that level, I've really enjoyed these levels. It combines the beauty of the Columbia Jungles with the rain details from the Seaward Star levels, plus the sizzle on the saber ... tremendous! You have to climb, swim, cross over and between things, and all the while dealing with the whole range of enemies. The thing that really got me - while playing the other night, I hit a new area - not part of the main path, just an off-shoot with a couple of swamptroopers and a Shadow Trooper waiting by the pick-ups. I got there - and remember this is my FOURTH TIME on this level - and truned around and said OMIGOD, I've never been here, and was actually confused about where I was and how to proceed. It was a joyous feeling after playing 55 mind-numbingly linear levels of SoFII (so why keep playing? Graphics, weapons, GHOULII, AI, etc make it very good).

 

I know that linear levels are the price we gamers pay for short development cycles - Kenn Hoechstra said as much months ago - but SoFII could have been much better than RtCW and MoHAA if the levels were more complex rather than just so numerous. The GHOULII hits make fire-fights much more interesting than in those other games.

 

Just a thought ...

 

Mike

[Jedi2k2]

your comparing apples to Garfield...

[txa1265]

To an extent, yes ... but they are both in the FPS Genre, both by Raven using it's in-house technology, both use the Q3TA engine.

 

Admittedly, JKII is on the 'adventure' side of FPS, and SoFII is on the 'blow their heads off ... then stand over them and blow off their limbs' end ... but ...

[Clem]

if u like choice of how u do stuff and less linear levels

 

deus ex all the way

 

its sooooooo involving and theres always another way of doing stuff

 

sneaking, BLOW THEIR HEADS OFF, sniping ... or ne other way u wanna

 

it rocks ... cant wait for number 2

[whitedragon]

never you mind

[DannyJAllTheWay]

Sad to say. Jedi2K2 is actually right. You can't compare the games. I don't consider JO an FPS. And it's not. SOF2 is an FPS.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by DannyJAllTheWay

Sad to say. Jedi2K2 is actually right. You can't compare the games. I don't consider JO an FPS. And it's not. SOF2 is an FPS.

 

Whether or not you consider it a FPS, that is the genre to which it belongs, like JK/MotS and DF before it. It clearly belongs to that genre, as opposed to in a genre with Sim City or Diablo or even Galactic Battlegrounds. Admittedly, it is not a clear 'apple to apple' comparison like RtCW to MoH:AA. However, you are in control from the first person (ok, most of the game you use 3rd person perspective, but it is still really first person control), using handheld weapons to kill enemies and work through maps. Just as an example, I'm replaying JKII again, and was on Kejim yesterday, and really wanted to have the lean keys mapped to Q and E like in SoFII, so I could lean around the corner, take aim at an officer's head, and ... miss him with that stupid, inaccurate stormie rifle - SPAST!!! But you get the point ...

 

I am not trying to equate the games - the adventure aspects are integral to JKII, the pacing is entirely different, and story plays a very different role. However, SoFII - despite the focus being as it is (which I find enjoyable in its' own way) truly is hampered by extraordinarily linear levels where your compass is truly 'follow the bullets'. I have described MoHAA as quite linear ... and RtCW was to an extent, and even JKII. However, I have yet to see a game with levels this linear. Truly, ***PLAYING*** this game is not hard - but ***SURVIVING*** it is ...

 

Mike

 

If you have (had) played SoFII

[txa1265]

OK ... we've had the requisite 'Deus Ex rulez' post, where's the one for Half-Life?!?

[Clem]

half life doesnt deserve a post it was too easy

 

i completed it in a week

 

took me months for deus ex on EASY ARGHHHHHHHHH!!

 

love dat deus ex

 

and unreal

 

and UT

[txa1265]

Sorry Darth Clem if I was snide ... I don't want to downplay the importance of any game as significant as Deus Ex (even if I found out about it only recently and never really got into it). Nor Half-Life, which is still viewed as the benchmark FPS.

 

... it just seems that when anyone asks a question - even straightforward things like 'should I buy RtCW or MoHAA' there are those who chime in 'get Deus Ex it rox' or 'Half-Life rulez' type things.

 

Mike

[StormHammer]

I've only played the first couple of levels from SOFII, and I noticed straight away the linearity of it all. Having just recently played all the way through Deus Ex and No One Lives Forever, the diversity and choices in gameplay are quite striking. They have instantly become two of my favourite games. I'm still looking forward to playing all the way through SOFII, but I don't think I'm going to enjoy it as much as I originally thought. This is rather strange considering I enjoyed the original SOF, linear as it was.

 

I guess that my gaming tastes are gradually changing, and I'm looking for greater variety in the gameplay experience, rather than simply run-and-gun. This is one of the reasons why I liked Jedi Outcast, because they introduced some slightly different modes of play. It isn't necessarily less linear, but it does throw something new into the mix to keep it refreshing. The original Jedi Knight was the most notable game in my mind for introducing more choices in gameplay. Half-Life used smoke and mirrors to con you into thinking it was less linear than it actually was. Deus Ex, for me, was an excellent gaming experience, particularly in the choices for achieving objectives, and the branching storyline. Even without the RPG elements, it's a great FPS.

 

A lot comes down to more careful thought in the actual level design, and catering to different needs, such as sneak-and-stun or run-and-gun. Both NOLF and Deus Ex had strong stealth options built in, which widens their appeal and choice. NOLF also offered the diversity of environments, and slight changes to gameplay on some levels, to alleviate the monotony of just running through a level shooting everything in sight. Needless to say, I eagerly await the arrival of both sequels.

 

Thief (which I'm currently playing) is another good example of some interesting gameplay and level design, swinging the gameplayometer all the way over into the stealth arena. It's a refreshing change, requiring more thought and strategy.

 

Personally, I'd like to see a lot more diversity and choices in the future crop of games. When environmental puzzles are well planned and well executed (especially believable and in-context), it brings so much more to the final experience of working your way through that environment. When certain pathways are blocked for no good reason, and you're forced to take a single path using the same tactics through an area each time, it detracts from the experience.

 

Even playing through the first few levels of SOFII, I kept wanting to pick up a bin, throw it against a wall, and use it to jump over. Or go up to a door, pick the lock, and find an alternate route from point A to point B, allowing me to flank my enemies. Are the days of the straightforward linear shooter numbered? I don't know. For me, perhaps they are.

[txa1265]

Good points ...

 

I have never played NOLF, but own Thief. I got it as a gift, and never got too far into it ... perhaps because I *was* into run-and-gun only at the time. Maybe I'll give it another try ...

 

I agree with the assessment of SoFII ... as do so many reviewers. But I think that we take it to another level. Where for many it is a minor annoyance, for some it is a fairly critical flaw - especially in the early levels. I actually found it amazing how much I *did* enjoy the game given how mega-linear the levels.

 

The stealth is also kind of a joke in this game, far worse than JO's level (my big complaint was that there weren't hundreds of Stormie's out there when Kyle chickened out). They see you and you're dead. No question, no ability to kill the person before they hit the alarm. Lame. I've hit the JKII level and in the room where you turn off the electricity gotten spotted, but killed the officer before he made it to the alarm. That's cool - feels satisfying! If SoFII, you have a room with 2 guards, and kill one, if the other turns, the level fails. Again, lame. At least in the later 'stealth' levels you can make it even if you hit the alarm, it is just more difficult.

 

I have also found something interesting since I started playing JK1 back 1.5 years ago. I expect to care about the decisions I make as the character I play. Immersive graphics and sound are fine, but I look for a bit more - tactics, strategy, morals. So ... when I played SoF1 last year I did it for gore, but later in the game that got boring ... by the time I met Dekker I didn't care. JK I cared about Kyle. MoHAA ... I couldn't even remember the guys name ... let alone when europe became so linear RtCW, I wanted for historical reasons ... back to the Apple ][ days (Halt! Auspass (sp)? Comminzie! Aiiiie!). But SoFII ... who cares about the story, who cares about the characters ... ?!? But the play is pretty good. It actually manages to keep you going (though on replay I'm havign a hard time keeping enough interest to get past Columbia) despite the issues.

 

Perhaps I'll have to give Deus Ex and Thief another try and check out NOLF.

 

Mike

[Dath Maximus]

Medal of Honor allied assualt has really good graphics.

 

I shot a nazi in the eye after he blinked.

 

And i shot a sniper in the head before he shot me.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Dath Maximus

Medal of Honor allied assualt has really good graphics.

 

I shot a nazi in the eye after he blinked.

 

And i shot a sniper in the head before he shot me.

... the only thing SoFII could have added is a look of surprise and fear on a terrorist's face when you surprise them, right before you blow their head off ... instead, you just blow their head off.

 

[Clem]

if u want run and shoot UT is yer game .... its that sorta game nothing else and the advanced eax in its cool 2

 

deus ex has sooo many routes ... altho i think u end up in the same place whateva u do .... but that unfortunately a problem thats gonna occur in all games .... because u can only design so much.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Darth Clem

if u want run and shoot UT is yer game .... its that sorta game nothing else and the advanced eax in its cool 2

 

deus ex has sooo many routes ... altho i think u end up in the same place whateva u do .... but that unfortunately a problem thats gonna occur in all games .... because u can only design so much.

 

UT = Unreal Tournament? No way, I HATE those games ... I got it as a gift, and initially thought it was cool for the graphics, but got bored after the first few 'levels'. Pointlessly running around a single close-ended map shooting things holds marginal interest for me ... ooops! "Revealed, your opinion on multiplayer game is" ...

 

I think we would all love a world in which - to use a JKII example - you were on Nar Shadda, and the goal is to get to Reelo's hideout. You can go the route from the game, but there are also several other ways, some involving stealth, some straight run and gun, some requiring a single tricky jump and then it is trivial, and so on ... the idea of such open-ended maps is incredible. However, did we not get a game that was developed in ~1 year? But was still >2x as long (play-wise) as RtCW or MoH:AA? There is a trade-off to be had for getting games that work well with reasonable loadtimes, and get them developed quickly. That tends to be linearity. Of course, that brings us back to SoFII ...

[atinymonkey]

Well, SOF2 has the level creator, that adds replay value and new multiplayer levels. But it's a 'realistic' solder sim, like MOHAA, and can get a bit bland (bit like the real world). I think you need the balance of the two,JK2 for escapism and SOF2/MOHAA for a more intense experence. I still prefer Project IGI, but MOHAA is a more involving game than SOF2 with it's team based levels.

 

I'd also recomend Crimson Skys to everybody as a complete break from first person shooters.

 

The baisic flaw in thease games is the complete lack of playable monkeys. Maybe Doom 3 will address that .

[StormHammer]

Strangely, I still play UT now and then for an hour's frenetic blast-fest against the bots. I could probably tour some of the maps in my sleep by now, but I keep forcing myself to use only certain weapons, which makes it more challenging. It's just an easy run-and-gun shooter that does act as a break from the longer, more involving SP games. I do the same with Outcast, too...I'm not heavily into MP, but I sometimes have a few games online or against bots.

 

I've got about halfway through Thief, and it's certainly challenging. Of course, I was interrupted by the Dungeon Siege demo, which was a good game - shame about the apparent lack of depth. It's heavily combat-biased...sort of like the old Eye Of The Beholder series, as I recall. In fact, those games would probably translate well into the DS engine. Hmmm...

 

After Thief I'll load up SOFII and hammer it through to completion before judging it. It may take me a while, because I rarely play for more than a few hours at a time, and not every day. Just out of curiosity, approximately how long did it take you to complete the game, txa1265?

[Lime-Light]

I was very dissapointed with SOF2. I guess I got sucked into the hype, because I never even owned the first one.

 

Its great fun to blow away chunks of an enemy and see a cloud of blood splattered evrywhere, but only for a while. Its just like Red Faction, that game was basically a Half-Life mod that had a gimmicky little feature to take apart the environment. In SOF2 you can take apart terrorists, but it offers little more. The story was crap (and the first intance I've seen where its easier to understand if you skip the cutscenes), the levels linear, and the stealth crap was riddiculous. If you want to make a "realistic shooter" dont go and make alarms inplanted in the emenies AI and give them the ability to shoot me full of lead while I'm 400 yards away laying prone in 3-foot-tall foliage.

 

The actual combat is incredibly frustrating as well. I dont see how an M4 can be such a popular weapon if it cant hit a target from 10 feet away, and not in the hands of a supposed proffesional, but it happens in Sof2. I havent even finished it. I got to Hong Kong or wherever it is and uninstalled it, then loaded up JK and cut some reborns up with great satisfaction. SOF2 is even mor run-of-the-mill than the original.

 

Deus Ex is excelent, but I havent touched it after my saves got deleted and I didnt feel like going through all that stuff in New York agian. Medal Of Honor, I believe, is the definitive WW2 infantry game. Its just damn fun and realistic (-ish).

 

Half-Life was great, but I think its run its course. But lets not forget Max Payne. Its my favorite FPS, by far, just for its sheer coolness.

 

[/endlongrant]

[-[MotU]-Lyger|=-]

all im reading is "Blah Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah" for 5 paragraphs each reply, now i didnt even bother reading the threat. I only read the title. now in my opinion SOF2 is better for the guns and FPS, but i think JKII is the best cause... you use a !!LIGHTSABER!! come on nothing can beat that

[txa1265]

Originally posted by StormHammer

Just out of curiosity, approximately how long did it take you to complete the game, txa1265?

 

I would put it in the 20-ish hour range, about the same as JKII (although I think JKII took me longer).

 

Mike