Darth Talliusc Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 ive been looking over the evidence and i have come to the conclusion that dooku was not evil, lets look at the facts shall we? 1: the neimodians went to dooku and told him all about sidious, dooku then joins sidious and hires jango fett not long after 2: dooku did everything he could (without looking like he was) to help the jedi. he tried to free obi-wan, he tried to save mace windu and the rest of the jedi by asking them to surrender in the arena. 3: he also made sure that the neimodians (trade federation) didnt send more droids into battle with the jedi and republic army "there are too many". 4: he told obi wan about sidious controlling the senate 5: (this ones the kicker) he was trained by yoda, and therefore cannot be evil because yoda's too good for that now some people could argue that these things dont mean that he is evil, but why do them ALL if you were truly a sith? why warn obi wan? why offer the jedi a way out? why join sidious after the neimodians come crying to him? well we shall all see for sure in 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XERXES Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 makes sense...cept for the yoda one. I mean, Luke was almost lost to the dark side, he was trained by yoda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Talliusc Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 keyword "almost" and yoda taught dooku for years, alot longer then he trained farmboy luke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharaFett Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 dooku carries a red lightsaber. thus, he is evil. plus, do you consider darth vader (not anakin skywalker) a sith? of course! but he still had affection towards luke in ESB and ROTJ, and you could tell because he was holding back when he fought luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Talliusc Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 lol sorry if i dont find the whole red lightsaber idea too compelling, and yes its possible that some of that was just compassion but i dont honestly think so, its too much of a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissectional Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Need I remind you that Dooku FOUGHT (keyword) Yoda, tried to crush him under rubble, blast him with lightning, and throw big ol, pipe-lookin-thingy's at him. Also, He is SIDIOUS' APPRENTICE! And also his name is Darth Tyrannus now, not Count Dooku. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 1. I fail to see what the Niemoidians going to Dooku proves; Niemoidians are stupid and easily manipulated. 2. Dooku wanted Obi-Wan as his Apprentice. That's the deal with the Sith Lord, the Apprentice is always scheming, trying to destroy his Master so he can take over; it's the nature of the Sith. Vader did the same thing with Luke... and Dooku's an old guy, probably figures that if he wants to become the Sith Master, he'll have to act fast before he croaks. Anyway, what he told Obi-Wan also planted seeds of doubt in the Jedi's mind. If by some chance Obi-Wan escapes and brings this information to the Jedi, it will be interpreted in one of two ways; either Dooku is lying, or he is telling the truth. If they believe Dooku is lying, then there's no WAY Palpatine could be a Sith Lord; If Dooku is telling the truth, the Jedi will try to stick their necks out where it doesn't belong (interfering with the affairs of the Senate) and Palpatine will have a reason to disband them. If Obi-Wan does not escape, then no harm done... Sidious is still in the shadows and no one's the wiser. Dooku also wanted to hold Mace and the others hostage. And he didn't try very hard to negotiate with them, either. 3. I fail to see how this one indicates that Dooku is a good guy... all it shows is that he knows when he's beaten. He just wanted to conserve his own forces and run to fight another day. 4. See #2 5. Agree with XERXES; this one doesn't make sense. See, Dooku is terribly disenchanted with the Republic and the Jedi Order. He got too attatched to his Padawan, Qui-Gon and when he died needlessly over the small matter of a trade embargo that could have been cleanly solved if the Republic had acted faster... Dooku snapped. He found out about Sidious from the Niemoidians and at once ran to join the opposing team. There may still be good in Dooku and he certainly doesn't take as much pleasure in killing as did Vader or the Emperor, but that doesn't make him any less evil. He didn't free Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan refused to join him, he didn't hesitate to send in the droids which killed dozens of Jedi... he would have killed both Obi-Wan and Anakin... even Yoda, if he could've. He's a Sith Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Talliusc Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 hmm, good point but i stand by my opinion, and the timing of the neimodians is just too perfect, as soon as he found out about sidious he rushed to go join him, and that thing about the apprentice and master is a load of crap, sith arent like that. Darth maul would have done anything for sidious no matter what, sith have more loyalty then jedi (at least since the whole darth bane thing anyways) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Groovy Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 He's just misunerstood. "I'm not bad.....I'm just drawn that way!" _Jessica Rabbit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kstar__2 Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 he WAS a good guy, before he turned to the dark side:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zindell Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 No I see where he'S coming from, he was technially being a spy. Maybe he only attacked yoda with things he knew he could easily handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanch Saode Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 What a wrong impression you have on Lord Tyranus... He would have killed Obi and Anakin if it weren't for the little guy Yoda coming rescuing them....and he planned the Death Star, or not planned, but made sure that the plans were kept alive....so don't come say he was a GOOD GUY!!! LOL.....you have to look the case from the other perspective...and I don't think you hace done so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Osama bin Laden isn't evil! Destroying the WTC and the pentagon were really just ways to deal with global overpopulation! I can't say I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharaFett Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 azrael has a point there- everything depends upon a certain point of view. but gl makes it blatantly obvious in interviews and fanmade films that RED LIGHTSABER=DARK SIDE. this is a very simplistic and clear-cut way of determining this. RED=SITH because GEORGE LUCAS SAID SO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Talliusc Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by Hanch Saode What a wrong impression you have on Lord Tyranus... He would have killed Obi and Anakin if it weren't for the little guy Yoda coming rescuing them....and he planned the Death Star, or not planned, but made sure that the plans were kept alive....so don't come say he was a GOOD GUY!!! LOL.....you have to look the case from the other perspective...and I don't think you hace done so! if you dont agree say that you think otherwise but dont tell people that they are wrong when the movie is 3 years away, if GL wanted to he could make it so that dooku is really lukes dad so dont tell me that im wrong! and maybe he sensed that anakin was getting his strength back and decided that almost killing obiwan would convince everyone that he WAS evil, and then later he felt yoda's presence so he stopped, right when he was about to kill obiwan and anakin he just stopped. you notice that he could have killed obiwan and anakin VERY easily but instead he started talking to yoda, who was all of 30 feet away, not even yoda could have stopped dooku from killing them. but he didnt, HAH! and as for sharafett's point of the red lightsaber, dont you see? GL loves to lead us one direction and then spin us completely the other way, we right now assume lots of things that may not actually be in ep3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharaFett Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 actually, check the documentaries of the making of ep:2. dooku IS a sith. and he IS evil. there's points of opinion, and then there's absolute truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.d. Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Talliusc ive been looking over the evidence and i have come to the conclusion that dooku was not evil, lets look at the facts shall we? 1: the neimodians went to dooku and told him all about sidious, dooku then joins sidious and hires jango fett not long after 2: dooku did everything he could (without looking like he was) to help the jedi. he tried to free obi-wan, he tried to save mace windu and the rest of the jedi by asking them to surrender in the arena. 3: he also made sure that the neimodians (trade federation) didnt send more droids into battle with the jedi and republic army "there are too many". 4: he told obi wan about sidious controlling the senate 5: (this ones the kicker) he was trained by yoda, and therefore cannot be evil because yoda's too good for that now some people could argue that these things dont mean that he is evil, but why do them ALL if you were truly a sith? why warn obi wan? why offer the jedi a way out? why join sidious after the neimodians come crying to him? well we shall all see for sure in 2005. Dooku is bad and here is why..... 1) Sidius sent Dooku to minipulate the Trade Fed. By doing this, they started the "Clone War" thus throwing the jedi in to defend the Republic, and thus allowing Sidius to gain even more control and soon become emporer. Dooku didnt help out the trade fed out of the goodness of his heart, he helped them so the war would start, and start the rise of the empire...... 2) Dooku is evil, and you cant use the Jedi arena fight as evidence saying he is good.... Look at every movie where you have a so called "Super Villian" they always and i mean ALWAYS tell the hero or heros to surrender and they wont be hurt....its a part of being bad. 3) Dooku trying to free Obi-wan wasnt due to the fact he wanted to see Obi free'd.....he wanted Obi to join the dark side.....and kill Dookus master, and become new head sith, and telling Obi that Sidius was rulling the senate is a great way to get someone to change sides... why you ask? Because it means you are working for the dark side.(jedi working for the darkside, and not knowing it) 4)Dooku told the trade fed not to send in more droids, not because he wanted to protect them..... he wanted them to pull back so they wouldnt lose more troops, that was the begining of a long war, and if you send all of your troops into 1 battle and they all get destroyed, then you lose the war right then and there. Thats not being a good guy... its called being a good general and looking ahead to future battles. # 4 was answered in #3 5) Just because Yoda trains you dosnt mean a thing... as long as you have free thought and will you can do what you like, and join which ever side you want. Just because hes the most powerful jedi (atm) dosent set our future in stone saying you will be a good guy forever. and finally Red lightsaber = bad Green and Blue lightsaber = good Purple lightsaber = A bald blackman who just doesnt look right swinging a lightsaber for some reason, but none the less is still a badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Knight Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 ok i see where he is coming from but i do think he is a sith look at everything not just a few things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Talliusc Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Knight ok i see where he is coming from but i do think he is a sith look at everything not just a few things thanks, and you all make good points but none of it is concrete enough to say outright that dooku CANT be a good guy, its also possible that everybody is right, that dooku will return from the darkside (if he is really over there) and repent like vader did. i just dont trust these things, GL is a crafty old dude and i know hes gonna trick us somehow. just trying to figure out how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 This has been said millions of times before by myself and many others before, but: Dooku is bad. He went to Kamino 10 years ago under the name of Sifo-Dias and orderd clones under the order of Palpatine/Sidious(they are the same person). He was officialy Palpy's apprentice of evil. Palpy told Dooku to start a seperatists movement so that he could use his clones and show his power. Then, Palpy thought no one would dare stand up to him, and be afraid of him. Dooku told Obi about Sidious being in control because he knew Obi wouldn't beleive him anyways, but Dooku just wanted to sound like a good guy. WHen Dooku tells Mace to surrender, and their lives will be spared, He knew Mace wouldn't do it. Therefore making him sound like a good guy. In the scene: "How could the JEdi have come up with an army so quickly?", he says that to let the Geonosians know he is on their side, and to hide the fact that he is actually doing all of this to get Sidious to power. The seperatists movement is all a big scam made by Palpy and Dooku. Therfore, Dooku=Bad guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharaFett Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 tallius look at your argument: you all make good points but none of it is concrete enough to say outright that dooku CANT be a good guy to use your argument, i could say there is not 100% undeniable proof that darth vader IS luke's father. and that mace windu is NOT black. i mean, come on! in that case, NOTHING is concrete enough to be true. if that's what you believe, FINE. but i dont understand where you're taking this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Hunter2354 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by obi-wan13 This has been said millions of times before by myself and many others before, but: Dooku is bad. He went to Kamino 10 years ago under the name of Sifo-Dias and orderd clones under the order of Palpatine/Sidious(they are the same person). He was officialy Palpy's apprentice of evil. Palpy told Dooku to start a seperatists movement so that he could use his clones and show his power. Then, Palpy thought no one would dare stand up to him, and be afraid of him. Dooku told Obi about Sidious being in control because he knew Obi wouldn't beleive him anyways, but Dooku just wanted to sound like a good guy. WHen Dooku tells Mace to surrender, and their lives will be spared, He knew Mace wouldn't do it. Therefore making him sound like a good guy. In the scene: "How could the JEdi have come up with an army so quickly?", he says that to let the Geonosians know he is on their side, and to hide the fact that he is actually doing all of this to get Sidious to power. The seperatists movement is all a big scam made by Palpy and Dooku. Therfore, Dooku=Bad guy Ownage!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Maul might've been completely loyal to Sidious, but how loyal was Sidious to Maul? Remember that Sidious has a knack for reading the future and only a giant vergance in the Force defeated his plans... remember that Sidious, being in tune with the Force, can also sense the Jedi potential in others... also remember that Sidious had come into contact with Anakin Skywalker on Coruscant and that, being an influencial Senator, may very well have caught wind of Qui-Gon's "Chosen One" theory. Now, what must Sidious think of this boy Anakin Skywalker? The Jedi's messiah... he's thinking "Hey, if I make this kid my apprentice, I'll be unstoppable." But wait, Sidious already HAS an apprentice! "Oh well, that one's gotta go... I'll just send him down to Naboo to face two Jedi with nothing to back him up but some rickety droids." And Dooku's pretty old and just another pawn for Sidious... the whole point of the Master/Apprentice relationship is that there will always be someone to continue on the Sith Brotherhood... Dooku's 80, that's about 50-60 years older than Palpatine himself. How's this guy going to be able to overthrow him and have time to train a new Sith Apprentice? Dooku's only there to fulfill the Rule of Two until Sidious' wonderboy comes along. Now, here's something from the second draft of Star Wars: As the Republic spread throughout the galaxy, encompassing over a million worlds, the GREAT SENATE grew to such overwhelming proportions that it no longer responded to the needs of its citizens. We saw this in Episode I. The Republic Senate was so big and had so many members that they were unable to settle the trade disputev and the subsequent invasion of Naboo. Anakin also makes reference to this in SW2, telling Amidala that the Senate is too big and that the people can't agree on anything, so they should be made to agree. After a series of assassinations and elaborately rigged elections... The first part didn't come about, though I guess you could cound Valorum as politically assassinated. And who's to say that Palpatine's election to Chancellor wasn't rigged somehow? He sertainly turned the tables in his favor and gained sympathy by the invasion of Naboo which he masterminded. ...the Great Senate became secretly controlled by the Power and Transport guilds. Now replace "Power and Transport guilds" with the Sith... When the Jedi discovered the conspiracy and attempted to purge the Senate, they were denounced as traitors. Several Jedi allowed themselves to be tried and executed, but most of them fled into the Outland systems and tried to tell people of the conspiracy. So, Dooku tells Obi-Wan about the Sidious/Palpatine connection... Obi-Wan escapes with the help of the Clone Army and reports this to his superiors. They have bigger fish to fry, more immediate dangers in the form of the Clone War and must ignore this for its duration. But the Clone War ends early on in SW3, Lucas has told us... so with nothing better to do (and maybe with other clues leading them, descovered during the Wars) the Jedi look into this whole Sith thing. They descover the Sith conspiracy and "attempt to purge the Senate" and are "denounced as traitors". This allows Palpatine to begin the Jedi Purge with the full backing of the Senate and the misinformed masses. So Dooku plants the seed that evidense suggests will flower into the Jedi Purge and hand the Sith victory (if a temporary one) over their greatest enemy. Not a good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Talliusc Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by SharaFett tallius look at your argument: to use your argument, i could say there is not 100% undeniable proof that darth vader IS luke's father. and that mace windu is NOT black. i mean, come on! in that case, NOTHING is concrete enough to be true. if that's what you believe, FINE. but i dont understand where you're taking this... ok thats alot more extreme than what i meant, some things are more obvious then others, i just dont believe GL would do it that way, its just an opinion of mine... and to jedi_monk's comment, some of your points are good but some things need straitening out. ill explain " Now, what must Sidious think of this boy Anakin Skywalker? The Jedi's messiah... he's thinking "Hey, if I make this kid my apprentice, I'll be unstoppable." But wait, Sidious already HAS an apprentice! "Oh well, that one's gotta go... I'll just send him down to Naboo to face two Jedi with nothing to back him up but some rickety droids" that isnt at all believable, sorry but it isnt, palpatine didnt even know about anakin yet, only the council did and obiwan and quigon. maul should have been able to defeat obi wan AND qui gon by sidious' estimation, he didnt want to lose maul at all, hed spent like at least 20 years forging this guy to be his weapon. you also said that: "Dooku's 80, that's about 50-60 years older than Palpatine himself. How's this guy going to be able to overthrow him and have time to train a new Sith Apprentice?" wow alot i have to correct there, first off dooku isnt 80, hes 400. secondly who said that the sith masters have to be overthrown? they age faster than most people do, they simply die when they get old. passing on the tradition, theres nothing about overthrowing your master and replacing him. and as you saw in the fight scene on geonosis, dooku can handle himself, hes quite capable of doing what he wants. sidious knew that dooku could take any jedi to a standstill, he held off yoda and made the little bugger pant AFTER taking down obi wan (the only one to defeat a sith thus far) AND anakin (the chosen one whos loaded with midichlorians). if all sidious wanted was someone who could kill jedi then he could have kept dooku, no need for a new apprentice, but the fact is that dooku doesnt stay as his apprentice, anakin takes that position. well anyways, you've brought me some new information that i have to think about, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharaFett Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 passing on the tradition, theres nothing about overthrowing your master and replacing him. there is a lot about that. there's a lot about it especially in the dark side source book. it's the cycle that the sith follow, but they're apparently not aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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