Emon Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 You're absolutly right, AK. Here are some more (targeted at JO especially)... 1. If you're not going to have a puzzle boss and instead are going to fight guys like Dark Jedi, do some changes to the AI. For example, give him a low amount of health (100-200 as opposed to Desann's 500), but jack up their reaction and evasion factors so they get hit LESS. Also remove Force powers from them like level 3 throw, grip, lightning, and those powers that Desann likes to spam. That's the worst part about fighting Desann. Try making your Dark Jedi boss hard to HIT, not hard to kill. 2. Many people are going to be somewhat bored of saber fighting by this time, especially me. If you're aiming for an epic end battle, try to make the envirnment epic as well. Make it really detailed and plenty of room, and also a lot of depth (not just flat ground). For example, fighting on some cliffs or something where you could easily fall off or get pushed off perhaps... Lots of destroyable things around you like rocks that you can hit with your saber.. It looks really cool to be dueling it out with some Dark Jedi and one of the sabers misses and cuts down a boulder or a pillar or something. 3. For level design, try to built out the level then make the puzzles around the LEVEL, don't build your level around the puzzles. If you build the level around the puzzles you'll end up with unconvincing, unrealistic puzzles that probably rely on Force Jump, just like some of JO's really crappy puzzles. For example, if you have a spaceport level, make the entire spaceport as if you could actually use it. Meaning, every area should have a purpose and should be detailed. Don't make useless places that have no practical purpose. They aren't convincing or realistic. An example of one of these useless places is the end area in JO where you fight Desann. Just some big open useless room, and the only way in is to get past a bunch of crushing/pushing wall things.. really stupid, IMO. Building with this method should also lead to non-linear levels. If you've got a realistic spaceport, then you'll have multiple entry and exit points around the map for each section, which is what makes a level non-linear. Also try to make multiple ways to beat the level, if possible. Most non-linear level provide you with mutliple ways to end up at the same switch. Aim for a level where there's more than one way to beat it. E.g. You're exfiltrating an Imperial base, allow the player to exit with more than one path. Same goes for entering the base. There shouldn't be just ONE way in. Give the player some choice. 4. About the story.. I agree, don't give a lot of it away. The only parts you should at first tell the player is what is in the opening title crawl (you should have one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Volrath, I agree. Even if it's some text in the corner of the screen so you know what you're playing. An installer would be nice, too, one with an uninstaller as well. Another GUI enhancement would be to re-add the dismember probabilities option in the menu. That, or default g_dismemberprobabilities to 0 in a startup.cfg or something. 2 is rare, 1 is normal, and 0 is excessive dismemberment. Unlike g_saberrealisticcombat, it only lets you dismember one joint, and doesn't add damage to the saber. Thus, you can't walk into someone and watch them get blenderized with your lightsaber. Oh, and any crap about g_dismemberprobabilities 500 being the most is bull####. 0 is the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonepadawan Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 3. For level design, try to built out the level then make the puzzles around the LEVEL, don't build your level around the puzzles. If you build the level around the puzzles you'll end up with unconvincing, unrealistic puzzles We really made an effort to make our puzzles part of the enviroment rather than just some sort of arbetory rubix cube that you encounter along the way -Making of Riven And Emon your right! I'm sick of bosses (always reskinned reborns of course) that just take so LOOOOOOONG to die, yet you are always hitting them. Another tip for level makers (I do have some exprience in this area for JK1, I made some "personal levels" with me and my friends [and the headmaster as a badguy] fighting through the school and other familiar real life and SW loacations) the WOW factor. Give people somthing to remember your level by. For me it was the fact that WE were in it (that and being able to choose your character) For example- Scipted events.. theres nothing like running down a crumbling tunnel or a totally unexpected event to give someone fond memories of a level- or a boulder/ maths teacher (don't ask) rolling after you. Bosses- A cool boss. A boss with a gun... a cool jedi/dark jedi boss - a creature boss (Like AKpiggots rancor defence monster.. and did we have to shoot that to bits??? NO- we hit on the head with a great big electric pipe!!!) Fighting alongside someone - fighting alongside Luke was one of the coolest moments for me in JK2 - that and fighting alongside the students of the jedi academy. Fighting along Han is also pretty cool. Eye candy- a beutiful area.. an area that captures the feel of the place you are trying to represent. Somthing totally awsome- Somthing out of the ordianary, somthing never done before- riding a boat and shooting down maylocks... a shop and money system, use of a cool new kind of enemy... I rest my case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 i dont dig the fully cinematic style plot revealing cutscenes u see in jk2 and jk1 and mots with camera changes and stuff i prefer the MOHAA style where the players control is locked and a bunch of scripted events happen in front of their fov, like with the bespin cop in jk2 good point, HL and MoH style, of having everything laid out in the players field of view, is a good way to immerse the player into the game; however, it doesnt bring any life to the character being played; i mean, we really dont learn anything about gordon freeman, or mike powell, in those games i think deus ex has a nice balance; but that game is more made to be an rpg, not an action game anyway, it depends on the style the creator wants their "episode" to be portrayed like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 21, 2002 Author Share Posted July 21, 2002 I'm pleasantly surprised by the input people are giving, it's just a shame that the threads all whacked up due to database errors. Title screens are extremely easy and modifiable for JO. I'm making one for my level and I've completely re-arranged everything so that it is alligned in the centre. I'll see if I can get a screenshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volrathxp Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 I have one more tip for any SP editors that quite frankly bugs me. If you've taken the time to make a really cool map shouldn't you let people know that that's what they're playing? Please make some UI changes like the background for the main screen, maybe change the title from Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast to like Star Wars: Your Map Name or Story Name. I mean it may not seem like much, but changing some graphics helps. When people load your map as a mod and there are no graphical changes, many people can get confused simply because everything looks the same. If you've made some necessary graphical changes, people load your map and say "Cool. This looks good." Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth-Nasty Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Reading through this has given me the bestest idea for a sp level! it has the bestest story (mind you it probably contradicts a lot of EU stuff cos ive never read any) but i have the story fully in my head (mind you, everyone else will probably think my story sux) im gonna have to try and learn how to map now thnx a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakewl Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 bumping up this great thread (on the new server hopefully without database errors) ---------------- with making some customized interface graphics you can give all of those unemployed web- or screendesigners some work which 3d egoshooters do you remember that had a great sense for humor, especially sci-fi egoshooters? giving your protagonist some rocking sayings (like Duke Nukem) or other npcs funny gossip to tell you, will probably make players laugh their asses off and it shouldnt be too difficult to take your own voice recordings, like eagle showed with his tragin galo map. it can even be a long proven easteregg, people will surely take notice of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takeoffyouhoser Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Man, is this a great topic post!! My level is going to have no sabers, no reborn, and oh yes, no force powers. How do you like them apples!!!! I understand people enjoy the force and saber, but, I have too many good ideas not to make this kinda of level..... I have gotten alot of archetecture ideas from RTCW, and gameplay ideas as well....so no force/saber/jedi.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Uhm no offence but....I do know 'bout u but I thin the saber makes this game....the force powers....yeah I could skip them (like lightning grip and that ####) especially on bosses like desann who uses lightning and grip constantly..... But, I do think the saber is a great deal..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 just because its set in SW doesnt mean you have to have force powers like i was thinking a story would be cool about just a grunt rebel or imperial on their personal quest just to survive in the jacked up galaxy - would be cool having them appear in areas seen in the movies, etc, - like maybe a grunt in echo base, while walking down the hall to report to a superior, you can see han n leia rush by in their little argument, etc. (HL did things like that - like the end of blue shift, you see thru a grate gordon freeman being dragged by marines when he was captured) stuff like that is cool COUGH*SOISTHISTHREADGONNABESTICKIEDORWHAT??*COUGH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volrathxp Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Originally posted by idontlikegeorge just because its set in SW doesnt mean you have to have force powers like i was thinking a story would be cool about just a grunt rebel or imperial on their personal quest just to survive in the jacked up galaxy - would be cool having them appear in areas seen in the movies, etc, - like maybe a grunt in echo base, while walking down the hall to report to a superior, you can see han n leia rush by in their little argument, etc. (HL did things like that - like the end of blue shift, you see thru a grate gordon freeman being dragged by marines when he was captured) stuff like that is cool COUGH*SOISTHISTHREADGONNABESTICKIEDORWHAT??*COUGH Good point. Our sp campaign is based around a Stormtrooper. No force powers, no saber. All guns, but of course, with obvious tweakings to the weapons.dat file. Good analogy idontlikegeorge with Half-Life. That kind of stuff does kick butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Non-Jedi is good, except that with JO, the guns really suck and are ineffective, and you can't change that, unfortunatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 On the topic of fitting the EU, AK, I found a problem with your JO SP levels! You showcased the Malastare spaceport, and you said Malastare was the Gran homeworld. Malastare is the homeworld of the Dug species, Kinyen is the Gran homeworld. You might want to change that... Here are the entries from the unoffical SW encyc: http://www1.theforce.net/CUSWE/search.asp?search=Malastare&EandD=EyDn&no=10 AND http://www1.theforce.net/CUSWE/search.asp?search=kinyen&EandD=EyDn&no=10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 23, 2002 Author Share Posted July 23, 2002 Yeah Emon, people pointed that out at Massassi. No biggie, it hasn't affected the level in anyway, just brought some information to my attention that can prove handy. Thanks for the links. This is actually a good example of taking full use of the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakewl Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 another idea what about mini games, more games of the nasty manner have you enjoyed opening the hangar doors in the cairn base with all of those storm troopers sucked out into space imagine you have a long bridge or catwalk and there are seperated troops of enemies coming to engage you, but they have to cross this bridge. Above the bridge is a big roof of loose rocks. Shooting at certain rocks (breakables) and destroying them activates a specified trigger event that will let fall more rocks onto the bridge where the troops are walking. Will you crush them? Or you have a plateau, on one side the cliff to the valley, on the other side a wall. There are pipes coming out of the wall to get rid of fluids or gas. And of course there are enemies coming along the plateau to you. You'll have to activate the ventilators or pumps to give your enemies some hurdles at the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 24, 2002 Author Share Posted July 24, 2002 Good idea. It adds a lot to the gameplay having little things to sidetrack the mission at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakewl Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 here some additional links for interested leveldesigners, you will probably have to register at gamasutra for accessing their stuff different level design articles are available through this link http://www.gamasutra.com/resource_guide/20010716/index.shtml its about architecture, design implementation, techniques, etc and here some helpful readings for story creation, its about drama, general structure, exciting themes, etc http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010914/littlejohn_01.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volrathxp Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 There was something I posted a long while ago in General Editing about using Installers for Mods/TCs that RichDiesal brought back up in another thread of using Installers for Single Player levels. That's another good tip to think about. Make an installer for your level so people don't have to do much to get it installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 24, 2002 Author Share Posted July 24, 2002 There was a very good one I used for BoaMSE called the "KlikTeam" installer... it's fully customisable, comes with uninstaller, you can program it so that it automatically finds the game directory and best of all it's freeware. I think I got it from http://www.zdnet.com or something like that. [edit: it's called "Clickteam Installer" and you can find it at the link below.] http://downloads-zdnet.com.com/3000-2383-7978184.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volrathxp Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 there are tons of em out there. The best I've seen, while still being cheap in terms of price is Setup Factory 5.0. link is http://www.indigorose.com/site/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 "free" is better than "cheap" - ill try the click team thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 25, 2002 Author Share Posted July 25, 2002 Hehe... you tightarse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 your place or level plot has a final end your character and universe plot has a loose end. well put I suggest that if you want to make a decent sp level then you should relate it to another Star Wars Game. I'm currently building an SP level based on Azzameen Station (can't remember how you spell it, I'll make sure it's correct by the time I'm finishing up) from X-Wing Alliance. hehe i had an idea for a mission that went along lines like that; that is cool - players like familiarity without repetition is it just me? or are the forums still all whacked? one thread i added a reply and it put it in the middle! edit: just like this! WTF??!?!?!?! :burn1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 I got the full version of Wise Installer Pro 4.02 for "free" and it kicks ASS! God I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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