ArtifeX Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by taboo I'm a huge fan of this mod ... I'm really hoping that it can virtually replace the default jk2. Having said that, I have just a few suggestions. Please don't forget to eventually deal with the bots aim/difficulty issue. I for one get a huge kick out of slaying bots when i don't feel like finding an online server. It shouldn't be too hard to give bots of any given difficulty a range of 'hit scores' to determine defence breaking etc (this is coming from someone who's never modded before of course:p ). This is on my list for beta 3. This second suggestion is just an idea that I'm putting out there in case anyone finds it worthwhile. I'm a big fan of all weapons, all force ffa. However, it seems a bit unbalanced that a gunner can choose to put no skill points into the saber skills and fill up the rest of the force powers while a saberist has to choose between saber skills and force powers. My suggestion would be to reduce all force powers or just light/dark powers by a factor of 1 of players holding a non saber weapon. Please don't think that i'm a die hard saberist who thinks he should be able to win every battle with a saber ... I'm not. I realize that there is an unsupported mercs vs jedi feature but anything that limits choice/diversity in the game ain't a good think in my books. Anyway, that's the basic idea ... thanks for listening! This is really similar to something I've been talking to others about. I think a lot of CTF ladder players would send their big brother Vinny after me if I did this. My original plan was to put this in Beta 2, but the mixed reactions I was getting made me decide to push it back to a later version, if I do it at all. I'm going to see how the current settings work out for a while, maybe get team Valar and some others to jump into my server for some CTF so I can watch how things go, and judge from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jah Warrior Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by zerowingzero I gotta make you a demo of some 3 min duels i had with others, Damage isnt really insane, in nf it takes three clean yellow hits, two red, or many many blue, and i've used lotsa moves with the current setting, i have style swich bound to mousewheeldown at the disadvanatge of nerver swiching weapons :S The keys is, if your good enough you can be able to evade most moves at close range, as well as move accordingly to minimize damage. .30? what is that? 20 damage per clean yellow hit? It has to be a real aquired taste, like watching baseball or grass grow. (No offence, but how long do your duels last? 10 min each?) 2-3 minutes on average, if its unmatched - ie a really awful player versus a good player it will last 30 seconds, One one occasion I saw a fight last 7 minutes but this was a one off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 Sounds like you're going to be a big fan of multiple ffa duels when Beta 3 comes out. The shortest ones are 30 seconds? Sheesh! Originally posted by Jah Warrior 2-3 minutes on average, if its unmatched - ie a really awful player versus a good player it will last 30 seconds, One one occasion I saw a fight last 7 minutes but this was a one off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by zerowingzero .30? what is that? 20 damage per clean yellow hit? It has to be a real aquired taste, like watching baseball or grass grow. (No offence, but how long do your duels last? 10 min each?) HAHA!! I am with you ZWZ I like good strong hits, if I get smacked by two yellow hits I have to fight a perfect duel to score a comeback. That the way it should be. If you get outclassed early on, well my friend you deserve no pity, next time be more careful. The same with finishers, why even try one? If they are weak the damage done to risk taken ratio is retarded. Finishers all leave you open for a long time (except Blue Lunge) and are very hard to land in a duel, they should be quick kills. But then again I hate Baseball because its slow, so it only makes sense that slow duels would annoy me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jah Warrior Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike HAHA!! I am with you ZWZ I like good strong hits, if I get smacked by two yellow hits I have to fight a perfect duel to score a comeback. That the way it should be. If you get outclassed early on, well my friend you deserve no pity, next time be more careful. The same with finishers, why even try one? If they are weak the damage done to risk taken ratio is retarded. Finishers all leave you open for a long time (except Blue Lunge) and are very hard to land in a duel, they should be quick kills. But then again I hate Baseball because its slow, so it only makes sense that slow duels would annoy me. I soooooo want to fight you, on both default settings and sensible settings, PM me if you wanna discover just how much pity i deserve... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by Jah Warrior I soooooo want to fight you, on both default settings and sensible settings, PM me if you wanna discover just how much pity i deserve... LOL I sooooooo think you should go on Arti's server since I will be there more and more now that Beta 2 is out. I play Jk++ on Rage's server, ProMod 2 on Artifex's server, and v1.02 when I want to just chill with cool players that have a more established community. Sooooooooo show up at Arti's server more often and you will see me as ZWZ did last night (heehee punk I got you good right before you left ) To Jah (rule) warrior: SOOOOOOO WEAK SOOOOOOO WEAK SOOOOOOO WEAK SOOOOOOO WEAK Want me to say it again? I know it drives you nuts. SOOOOOOO WEAK there you go!! LOL I pity you for acting big on a forum. LoL I don't claim to be the best, I just know what I like. I like strong sabers because the idea of landing a heavy hit across the head that only leaves a scratch is laughable. LoL Breath man Breath!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jah Warrior Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 No comment... the offer stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 methinks everyone needs to be calming down now, aye..... no more personal attacks... AT ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jah Warrior Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by GonkH8er methinks everyone needs to be calming down now, aye..... no more personal attacks... AT ALL thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 If you haven't read this yet, read it. The last section of it is something that's been bothering me for a while. I just want to shout this from the highest hilltop... http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=806991#post806972 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 artifex .... i have an ickle problem with promod when playing online .... well ok its a big gurt problem .... i cant play! ive only tested this in hermes cos i know of no other promods servers i can get into i always get 999 pings i can chat to people .... but play is impossible im on 56k if thats important edit: i tested it in ur server 2 ... same problem also i forgot to mention the "connection interrupted" warning and picture keep flashing on and off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by Jah Warrior No comment... the offer stands. I told you where I play and I told you how to find me. You have the problem with me and my views, I don't want you to change your server. So my friend since I did not insult you in any way and you stated you "soooooo want to fight me" and I have no interest in even running into you, then you should have no problem finding me. Look champ many people like ProMod because of the strong hits, and just because I happen to agree with them doesn't mean you gotta come around tryin to prove something. My last post was meant to show you how retarded you are for getting all bent out of shape because I express the fact I don't like weak sabers. You freakin erased a good thread last time because of this. Just accept the fact that many people like duels to last a long time because of even opponents, not just because it actually takes a long time to kill someone. You know where to find me so if you wish come and get it, otherwise I am not taking time out of my schedule for some match that only means something to you. Frankly I don't care if you are the best Jedi on the damn planet, you still won't change the fact that weak sabers SUCK IMHO. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by GonkH8er methinks everyone needs to be calming down now, aye..... no more personal attacks... AT ALL Fine fine fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 ProMod beta 2 is now posted at jk2files.com. They give a quick blurb about it and have a new screenshot or two: http://www.jk2files.com/file.info?ID=5179&sid=#55202 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taboo Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 This is really similar to something I've been talking to others about. I think a lot of CTF ladder players would send their big brother Vinny after me if I did this. My original plan was to put this in Beta 2, but the mixed reactions I was getting made me decide to push it back to a later version, if I do it at all. I'm glad to heat that you've given a similar scheme some consideration! I'd just like to add a few thoughts seeing as this issue isn't just a pipe dream anymore. Another solution would be to really reduce the number of skill points needed to buy saber skills. Or, make saber skill level 2 for offence/defence and level 1 for throwing free. In retrospect, this would be a less nerfy way to go about things I suppose. Now, in regards to the earlier idea of reducing the force skill by 1 of ppl carrying a non saber weapon! It occured to me that youculd just reduce/nerf proactive force use while holding a ns-weapon. ie if i have a blaster in hand, i force push other ppl at level 2 while i use it defensively\automatically at level 3. CTF,dueling and ffa are all very different games ... if you have to change the settings slightly for each to make them more fun/viable, i'd say do it. Having said this, don't do it unless you absolutely have to. Anyway, these are all just ideas for consideration from a jedi with too much time on his hands. BTW, is there some place where you discuss features in depth that you are currently considering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Just wanna start out by addressing the clash between FatalStrike and Jah Warrior. I think it primarily happened due to two different points of view on duelling; Fatalstrike's from the FFA view and Jah Warrior's from the Duel view. Disregarding how Fatalstrike obnoxiously overreacted to Jah Warrior's challenge, I agree with them both. In FFA, which I rarely play, I want fast duels for the flow of the game and with consideration to the uninterrupted kill score list. In Duel however, the kill score list waits for you, and having longer fights is much more desirable, at least to me. The level of realism with regards to getting hit by a trapped laser beam emission must come second to the fun of the game, but then again that's relevant to each player. That said, I just wanna comment on betamod further after having played it some more since my last comment. Beta2 seems to encourage close headon collisions as opposed to the side hits with the tip of the saber some of us strived for before. Does it require skill to make sure your horizontal saber swings hit at the peak of its strength, ie the crosshair dead on your opponent? Yes. And therein could be a problem, for if you attack running straight on with vertical swinging it will require little to hit with full breakthrough capability, and thus we could be looking at a new newbie headless chicken epidemic Hereby not said it's not possible for players to adapt and evolve so much with this new style of play required by this mod that spectacular and diverse battles can come about. But so far much of the grace of some of the old mods have been lost to powermashing.....hope time and play will prove me wrong. Another thing brought about by this mod is the necessity to practically always look at or above headheight of your opponent in order to max out CSC strength. I have always played looking downwards by 30-45 degrees in order to have a better view of my surroundings and my enemy's position. It simply provides a better overview, and even if I get used to looking straight ahead that overview won't be restored along with it. So, Artifex, if it is possible could you include a movable crosshair, so one could place it 30 degrees above normal to allow maximum strength while keeping ones overview by looking downwards? I'm no comp wiz but I assume that it might be a greater piece of work since by moving the crosshair in relation to your character's default point of attack origin and direction would demand alignment programming and such stuff. But if you could I'd be immensily appreciative So much for now....might get back to yer. Hope you appreciate the feedback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by Jubatus Disregarding how Fatalstrike obnoxiously overreacted to Jah Warrior's challenge, I agree with them both. Mind your words champ! You don't know how long Jah has been on me about not likeing his settings, if I even mention strong settings, or agree with someone who like them (as in this case) he gets all pissy and challenges me to a pointless match that cannot regardless of outcome prove either party as being correct. About the rest of your Post: Also you went on to say that ProMod encourages players to charge straight ahead, but you forget that changing to a better blocking stance makes a head on attack very easily defended. You will be blocked almost 100% of the time and it will be very easy for your enemy to sidestep and crush you. As players get more and more used to the blocking scheme head on attacks will not be as common. Players need to learn to sidestep with out removing their crosshairs from their enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I dunno, this one feels kinda spammy. I just spent 15 minutes playing another two guys, and this one fella would just spam yellow slashes. No specials or anything, just run at you swinging yellow, and I found it very hard to counter. Yellow did decent damage, and it would break defenses as well? Hmmm.... ShockV1.89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by ShockV1.89 I dunno, this one feels kinda spammy. I just spent 15 minutes playing another two guys, and this one fella would just spam yellow slashes. No specials or anything, just run at you swinging yellow, and I found it very hard to counter. Yellow did decent damage, and it would break defenses as well? Hmmm.... ShockV1.89 What stance were you defending with? Also did you try short jump back vertcal heavy chop forward? I found that since it hits twice and usually kills upon landing you can kill forward attack spammers with ease. You might also try a medium special since it only works when people charge at you, it may be good in this instance. Its all about timing. We must expect people to noob fight at first since non of us are well practiced in it enough to have set counters in mind, but I have found many that work including blue stance defense plus strafe while pivoting to keep him in my sights to be very effective. Also keep in mind that a red DFA hits going up, so time a DFA to launch just before he reaches you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Clem artifex .... i have an ickle problem with promod when playing online .... well ok its a big gurt problem .... i cant play! ive only tested this in hermes cos i know of no other promods servers i can get into i always get 999 pings i can chat to people .... but play is impossible im on 56k if thats important edit: i tested it in ur server 2 ... same problem also i forgot to mention the "connection interrupted" warning and picture keep flashing on and off bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by Jubatus ... That said, I just wanna comment on betamod further after having played it some more since my last comment. Beta2 seems to encourage close headon collisions as opposed to the side hits with the tip of the saber some of us strived for before. Actually, being in close quarters combat can be more dangerous now than before. When you're that close, the angle between your crosshair and your opponent can change very rapidly. Someone who can consistently maintain their aiming lock when that close is going to be a very dangerous player, indeed. Defense breakers and knockaways are going to happen a lot at that range. It's much safer to keep your opponent at the maximum range of your current saber style, then dart around them trying to open up one of their sides to attack. Someone coming straight at you in a rush is going to get a nasty surprise when you sidestep them and slice them apart. Does it require skill to make sure your horizontal saber swings hit at the peak of its strength, ie the crosshair dead on your opponent? Yes. And therein could be a problem, for if you attack running straight on with vertical swinging it will require little to hit with full breakthrough capability, and thus we could be looking at a new newbie headless chicken epidemic Hereby not said it's not possible for players to adapt and evolve so much with this new style of play required by this mod that spectacular and diverse battles can come about. But so far much of the grace of some of the old mods have been lost to powermashing.....hope time and play will prove me wrong. Another thing brought about by this mod is the necessity to practically always look at or above headheight of your opponent in order to max out CSC strength. I have always played looking downwards by 30-45 degrees in order to have a better view of my surroundings and my enemy's position. It simply provides a better overview, and even if I get used to looking straight ahead that overview won't be restored along with it. So, Artifex, if it is possible could you include a movable crosshair, so one could place it 30 degrees above normal to allow maximum strength while keeping ones overview by looking downwards? I'm no comp wiz but I assume that it might be a greater piece of work since by moving the crosshair in relation to your character's default point of attack origin and direction would demand alignment programming and such stuff. But if you could I'd be immensily appreciative So much for now....might get back to yer. Hope you appreciate the feedback I've gotten a request or two for a Y-axis camera adjustment variable. I'll take a look and see how easy that would be to implement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike Sooooooooo show up at Arti's server more often and you will see me as ZWZ did last night (heehee punk I got you good right before you left ) Lol if i remember correctly, i got you better, if only i had some reference pics.... http://members.rogers.com/zwz/screenshots/biznatch.jpg My score is so low because i was talking to artifex for a bit about his site, and the fact i can't swich weapons... the key i have weaponswich bound is "q" while i am using the arrow keys for movement :S And by the way, hate you avatar and your arguing like it's JBF here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike Also you went on to say that ProMod encourages players to charge straight ahead, but you forget that changing to a better blocking stance makes a head on attack very easily defended. You will be blocked almost 100% of the time and it will be very easy for your enemy to sidestep and crush you. As players get more and more used to the blocking scheme head on attacks will not be as common. Players need to learn to sidestep with out removing their crosshairs from their enemy. Originally posted by ArtifeX Actually, being in close quarters combat can be more dangerous now than before. When you're that close, the angle between your crosshair and your opponent can change very rapidly. Someone who can consistently maintain their aiming lock when that close is going to be a very dangerous player, indeed. Defense breakers and knockaways are going to happen a lot at that range. It's much safer to keep your opponent at the maximum range of your current saber style, then dart around them trying to open up one of their sides to attack. Someone coming straight at you in a rush is going to get a nasty surprise when you sidestep them and slice them apart. Countering the headon bashing was not the issue of my post; I will have little trouble doing that. It's this form of 'style' people might adapt that bothers me, for it will ruin a lot of the grace as I mentioned in said post. I'm less interested in winning as I am in having a great fight. That was the point I wanted across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Well after geting owned in Jah's server,i can honestly say that dueling and ffa's are very different. Damnit i thought my ffa skills would transfer over Anyway, i still say that red is ok in with the regular damage (it's a risky stance to use aginsed a good player but the damage is always worth it) and i think that the damage setting on your server takes away from it, i'll have to do more testing before i make any real oppinions though, i am not really used to the whole promod NF scene so what applys to FFA's or FF may not apply the same way there. Don't think it's over though, i'll get better somehow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jah Warrior Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by zerowingzero Well after geting owned in Jah's server,i can honestly say that dueling and ffa's are very different. Yeah thats my point duelling and ffa ARE totally different, especially when you throw guns, saber throw and force into the mix. Seriously with damage set at 1 those fights would not have lasted more than a few seconds and you saw it with your own eyes dude. Perhaps a different promod for duelling would work? I dunno, to be honest I'm sick of the debate, I know what me and our regulars like - nuff said... For the record you so nearly had me on the last fight... 6hp i think or there abouts. I really did think i was doomed. Hehe, when i was on Artifex's server I didnt have a single force power, except jump, all my keys are assigned to server commands etc. But hey i still got some kills off the drain whores and the run away and throw the saber fanatics... Love it, Age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill!!! cheers for the rumbles Zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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