lukeiamyourdad Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Heroes are good and if you could make them in SWGB, it would just be great. Imagine having Darth Vader in a normal RM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 yeah imagine Darth Vadar casting Star Fall or Blizzard!!! how's that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 I never said he would cast those!? I just meant as a regular jedi hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 I agree with Arthur on the whole hero thing. The RPG style ruins the fun of the RTS game. Luke, Vader et. al can be added gameplay wise doing what ensemble did with greek heros in AoM. But i think that being able to create Vader every game and recreate him after he dies would kinda ruin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 We could have a limited amount of heroes, if a hero dies he can't be rebuild and besides, it isn't too RPG 'cause there is know level up and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 The Greeks in AoM can build named heros from greek myths (like Heracles, Perseas, Jason), but only one. When they die, you see a spirit lift to the sky (as with all heros) and you cn build them again. If heros wre included, they would defenetly have to be weaker than those in the scen box currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Of course, but it depends on the kind of hero and the price to get him. Like Han Solo in the toybox for example, he isn't that strong! It would be unfair for him to have his power decreased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckcsaber Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 My fav. RTS is Total Annihilation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Han, Leia and others are fairly weak. But Vader and Maul and Yoda would definately have to be toned down. There comes a time when a unit is too strong no matter what price you payed. Although you're right. Linking hero stregnths to price would be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Hey have you guys ever played EE? the heroes in EE are cool... the tactical hero / warrior, if you roll into battle with them they'll arrange ur army for the best attack position and autometically order your troops to attack. The heroes even know which enemy target is the most menacing... if this kind of hero is what you are talking about then I'd say, YEAH WHY NOT??? it's nice to have tactical assistance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Yeah maybe I didn't though about that, it could work. Tactical assistance could be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I would prefer my units/turrets to decide what is most menacing without a hero. Things like empty trannie flooding to get fighters past AA, are not strategies, they are just taking advantage of supid unit AI. Heros should not be needed to reduce micromanagement. Imagine if you needed a hero to queue up farms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Well it's not to reduce micromanagement, but a hero is more a commander in the heat of the battle. Of course it would be nice to have smart turrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 The purpose of an RTS is for you to decide who to attack, what formation to put your units in, where to march, and when to fight. Unless, of course, you prefer the AI to play the game for you, but personally, i find the AI to be not the brightest tool in the shed, if you get my drift. empty trannie flooding to get fighters past AA :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Originally posted by Sithmaster_821 The purpose of an RTS is for you to decide who to attack, what formation to put your units in, where to march, and when to fight. Unless, of course, you prefer the AI to play the game for you, but personally, i find the AI to be not the brightest tool in the shed, if you get my drift. :D Sithmaster, wut u are talking about is tactics micromanagement is tactics, not strategy strategy is how u manage ur resources, build ur troops, know who to attack... do u know the difference between a battle and a war? to win a war u need strategy to win a battle u need tactics as it titles, it's RTS game Real time Strategy, not tactics.... u can leave the tactics part to heroes u don't have to make it like a complete turn over to the AI if u've played EE before, u'll know the heroes only order ur troops when u didn't give specific commands if u command ur troopers to attack, u'll overwrite the heroes' commands the AI of the tactical heroes, are really good they arrange formations, and even order some units to defend the back of the army....u'll see just remember, this is a strategy game think about it when u attack in SWGb, do u really control every single unit? no, u just do general attack orders like (assault mech attack the towers, the rest protect assault mech....yada yada) a tactical hero would be the same thing except that it takes care of little details like when someone attacks ur primary siege weapons, the other troops will autometically come in and protect ur siege weapons....stuff like that, just taking care of the details.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Actual you call it a Real Time Strategy because it involves strategies but tactics are the main part of an RTS. If it was strategy only then it would be like rolling dices without knowing what would be the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 not neccesarily it's called RTS for one reason: it's strategy tactics....argh do u really go over units one by one??? no way, u just click on them, choose formation and then order them to attack in specific order and sequences like i said let the tactical heroes take care of details knowing when to attack is more important than how well u do in battles cauz no matter what, the defending team always has the advantage (they are stationed, and u are mobile) if u want tactics, play warcraft 3 u need to do all the manual control for magic spells(and see, they even have auto-casting, makes ur life easier, why? becoz tactics is not as important) AoK/GB is a good game, because the AI for units is already good (at least better than warcraft3, i m talking about units ai not computer opponent AI) and ...it's got more strategy involved in the game there is no point playing RTS if all u want to do is control ur units in the battle...if u are not convinced, think about the way u play SWGB do u win by strategy? or win by tactics? of course strategy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 tactics is only important when u are fighting face to face somewhere in the middle of the map where u are both far away from ur bases other times, for example: siege u choose the best location that'd benefit the war in general (makes u win, perheps?) and then u setup ur siege weapons and start to siege the enemy town let the tactical heroes (like ones in EE) do the micromanagement... all u gotta do is send the troops to the right place and roughly arrange them into attack formation and sequences there are no magic spells in SWGB i dun see why u want micromanagement... the scale of the war is much much larger in SWGB than in warcraft 3 u can't go after each unit and change their diapers all the time (OMG MY ARCHMAGE IS GONNA DIE, MOVE HIM BACK... --> warcraft 3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Gosh why are we arguing on this issue it's not even close to what i posted previously i said... Tactics is not as important but still, it's a part of the game u still do the same thing u throw ur army to the frontline and then u order them to attack but then the hero will arrange them into smaller groups (for example the hero will save couple of troopers to defend ur back just in case if something escapes)...these kind of stuff i am not saying that the AI will take over everything it'll just help u on the battleground... (another example: ur units idle sometimes, the hero will keep them busy after they destroyed their target) it won't change the way u play... if u don't trust me, go play EE u still play the same way, still control units in battles.... but then the hero will reinforce ur orders so ur troops get into formation that is the most beneficial... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Agreed on the heroes helping you around a bit but then you could just leave your army in front of someones base and they will destroy it without you ordering anything. You could just sit back and enjoy the show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Well the hero will order the army to fight whatever enemy unit is in the window unless u order ur army to crush the enemy base ur hero won't go far like i said, u still have to order ur troops...the hero just manages the details another good thing about the EE heroes is that when u move ur troops u usually just right click on the destination and ur troops won't attack until they arrive at the spot that means, if someone attacks u during the travel, ur troops won't do anything about it in EE, if u order ur troops to move to a certain spot (right click) the hero will do so, but if any enemy units appear, the hero will stop ur troops and fight the enemy units... after the conflict's resolved, the hero will resume the travel to the destination u set earlier... it comes in handy sometimes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Um.... what precisely is wrong with RPG heroes? Or the RPGness in general? I really liked it. I'm a big fan of the RPG genre, so seeing it as a part of an RTS was really quite exciting. Arthur, the way you play isn't necessarily the way everyone else plays. The same goes for everyone else as well. Me, I usually separate my units into groups and target them in those groups, eg. Assault Mech group take out the gate, Mounties start tearing down this turret, Jedi take down their enemy troopers, whatever. Some people like micromanagement. I personally find that, as some people like to say, God is in the details (not that I'm a big Christian or anything). I actually enjoyed having to do something ie. decide when to cast a spell, who to target, whatever rather than the vaguely mindless "click the target, your intelligent little men will do the rest." The latter kind of 'tactics' or 'strategy' or whatever is enhanced by the EE Tactical heroes; it practically makes it so you don't have to do anything. Of course, you can do that in SW:GB as well; ever heard of Attack-Move? It works for me... though I prefer to actually take control of the battle personally. Each to his/her own, I guess..... but wouldn't a game which combines elements of both be great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Originally posted by CorranSec Um.... what precisely is wrong with RPG heroes? Or the RPGness in general? I really liked it. I'm a big fan of the RPG genre, so seeing it as a part of an RTS was really quite exciting. Arthur, the way you play isn't necessarily the way everyone else plays. The same goes for everyone else as well. Me, I usually separate my units into groups and target them in those groups, eg. Assault Mech group take out the gate, Mounties start tearing down this turret, Jedi take down their enemy troopers, whatever. Some people like micromanagement. I personally find that, as some people like to say, God is in the details (not that I'm a big Christian or anything). I actually enjoyed having to do something ie. decide when to cast a spell, who to target, whatever rather than the vaguely mindless "click the target, your intelligent little men will do the rest." The latter kind of 'tactics' or 'strategy' or whatever is enhanced by the EE Tactical heroes; it practically makes it so you don't have to do anything. Of course, you can do that in SW:GB as well; ever heard of Attack-Move? It works for me... though I prefer to actually take control of the battle personally. Each to his/her own, I guess..... but wouldn't a game which combines elements of both be great? i'll use that back at u "the way u play, isn't exactly the way other people play" obvoiusly SWGB is not primarily about micro management, and gosh when will u listen to what i am saying it's not a god damn turn over to the AI, it's just an assistant guess wut, AI knows a lot more about the units in the game then u do he'll help u arrange ur troops if u don't like the idea, fine, dun use it in EE, u can choose to do everything by urself, while the computers do way better than u do. No, what makes war3 a great game is also what makes war3 a bad game the heroes, some ppl think that it's good while some others think that it's a messed up thing to add to a RTS gosh do u really know how to play EE? have u ever tried tactical hero? no, u still have to control ur troops, he just does minor adjustments, especially when u encounter unexpected assaults the AI is already present, when u order ur units to attack, they are partially controlled by AI...the tactical heroes make that part of the AI better. the way u describe ur tactics is basically what other ppl do u still just control a group of units and tell them what to do (assault mechs, take out the defense, strike mech, take out the tropers, whatever) u don't babysit ur precious units one by one, so DON'T TALK about micromanagement (strike mech 1 take out trooper number 1, strike mech 2, take out trooper number 2, strike mech 3, retreat, omg strike mech 4 is dead...and i still have 60 strike mechs left to give specific command) if u want to play micro management go play team melee or warcraft 3 moving ur mounties to the front is not exactly micromanagement u got way too many troops to look after most of the time u just order different groups of units to do different tasks...u DON'T babysit each unit, DO YOU? (OMG I JUST LOST A LASER TROOPER, OMG MY WORKER DIED, OMG A FARM IS EXHAUSTED, OMG MY STRIKE MECH DIED, OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG) if u really like to babysit ur precious units, go play something like warcraft, where u get some LIMITED AND PRECIOUS units, and u have to use a lot of micromanagement to win the battle? (haha) dude, it's a strategy game know how when to attack and how to attack is what this game is about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur2 Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 same thing in AOX series when u encounted paladin horde what u do is u get ur counter units like pikemen to the front to fight paladins u don't go "pikeman 1 do this, pikeman 2 do that" like u do in warcraft 3 "archmage is about to die, move back and cast blizzard, other units march forward, sorceress, turn enemy units into sheeps , priests, heal..." the AOX engine is focused on large scale battles, rather than weenerish encounters. gosh wut are u doing here if u like war3 over SWGB? have u ever seen a guy on an AOX forum criticizing AOX not having enuff micromanagement? this game is NOT about micromanagement what u trying to do? convert the players to the ghetto blizzard games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Although i agree that the AoE-ish games have a ton less micro than Warcraft, especially on a single unit scale, they still require some microing, like with economy and groups of units shifting targets and retreating/advancing. And i also like to be in control of my units, because sometimes i dont want to attack the most menacing army, especially if they outnumber me. Or other times i want to retreat and not push foward with the attack. Fighting unit ai usually creates more micro than it was originally meant to get rid of, lessening the appeal of the games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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