C'jais Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Agreed Woodrodius, let's call this one quits shall we? I can recommend checking out the K-1 tournament to you both btw - it's a no holds barred tournament, where every style of fighting can participate. It gives a very intense view of how the masters of martial arts would perform if they went up against another. It's held in Japan, and very big. Not to mention a Danish karate fighter has won that tournament several times.. heheheh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodrodius Posted November 12, 2002 Author Share Posted November 12, 2002 I'm not going to call it quits persay, if anyone wants to drop in anymore feed backback or just to vote, im keeping the thread open. Otherwise I will be posting less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Originally posted by Woodrodius I'm not going to call it quits persay, if anyone wants to drop in anymore feed backback or just to vote, im keeping the thread open. Otherwise I will be posting less. Oh, I meant for me only - I'm really tired of arguing this, the time is nearly 12 a clock and I still need to study for tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRaider Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Originally posted by Boba Fife You're assuming that Lee would block each and every one of Tyson' punches. How is it that 35 professional heavyweight fighters in succession could not do this? He was 35-0 when beaten by Douglas never having been so much as knocked down in all that time. I think we may be giving too much credit to the martial arts as the ultimate form of fighting. Lee wasn't invincible and everyone has their "off" days. See if you can't track down some past fights of Tyson's (Trevor Berbick, Frank Bruno, Michael Spinks) and you'll see what I mean about intense power coupled with blazing fast speed. There's one fight where Tyson hit his opponent so hard in the face that the other fighter actually moved sideways like he was sliding on ice!! He never saw it coming either. You guys are not thinking of the block I talk about. 90 degree angle fist up in the air. When you have it like this feel how hard your elbow is(The part that is sticking out.) That is pure bone with tissue to act as a a comforter. It is not possible to break the elbow with the fist when the elbow is like I told. The fist is softer so it will break before the elbow does. This is my last post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungalow Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 I think Lee would win: Sure one hit by Tyson can probably knock out Lee but he has to land that punch. Because Lee is faster he could land a hit on Tyson's legs right away, and because Boxing requires a strong base consisting of the legs, Tyson wouldn't be as effective after the each hit he takes to the legs. I would think that Lee would continue to press attacks on his legs, and Tyson wouldn't be able to do anything about it (due to the range factor) since by then he'd have slowed down, and if he went for a knockout punch, Lee would anticipate it due to Tyson's reduced speed, and because of the amount of damage taken to the legs, Tyson would be left wide open since it would take him longer to recover. I see where your coming from you think Tyson would come running at Lee and even if Lee gets the first hit in, Tyson would at least get in a hit before he feels the effects, but if Lee moved out of the way or better yet kick him in the groin Tyson would be screwed. (Note that: Lee developed Jeet Kun Do after learning from Wang Chun's school, who was a student of the legendary Wong Fei Hung, who used cheap tactics like finger in the eyes, and kick to the groin, and throat shots to beat his opponents (Hung Gar)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 to Boba Fife: I am Cjais's friend, who he wrote one of his post with. I assume that you know quite a lot concerning (sp) B. Lee, and that you have seen at least a few of his movies, and chances are that you have seen the one where Lee is fighting Chuck Norris in Colluseum. It is a quite impressive fight, good-loocking and it is (as you said about his movies in general) at first glance pretty realistic. Rememer, this is just an example: at a certain piont, late in the fight, Lee rapidly fires off three kicks with his right leg against the head of Norris. Looks awful - but not very realistic. Lee was a way too good fighter to do that in a "true" fight. I agree that he did the choreography himself, was really concerned about doing it good but not realistic like in a street fight. BTW I heard that the scene was taken out from some copies of the film due to the violence(!?) but you should be able tho find an uncensored copy some place. Respect, I enjoy a good conversation / debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 Rad, have you ever watched any of the biographies on Bruce Lee? They document with vivid explicity that everything was planned. Every kick, swing of the fist, dodge, etc. Lee was responsible for this orchestration and refused to "Settle" for anything less than perfection and would film the fight sequences dozens of times to achieve that level of perfection. I realize that in a "real fight" choreography takes a back seat to instinct and reaction, but, for the most part, Lee wanted his fight scenes to appear explosive and energetic so as not to appear as a "dance" as is so common in other martial artist's movies. The History Channel and the Arts & Entertainment Network are where I've seen two different biographies where his wife and former students and colleagues are interviewed and they all concur that his film fights were really no different than how he would've flattened opponents out on the street. That was his goal. I just watched a two-hour biography about a month ago on the History Channel that had me so riveted that my mac n' cheese got cold on the table in front of me because I couldn't take my eyes off the screen!! Good stuff indeed. They even show about a 20 minute sequence from 'Game of Death' where Lee and his two cohorts penetrate the seven levels of the Dark Pagoda advancing upward through each floor as a different opponent with a unique fighting style awaits them on the next floor. I don't think I blinked for that whole 20 minutes!! (my eyes still hurt) That 20 minute footage had never been shown before that special on the History Channel. Ya know the silence and the chill ya get when the narrator say, "This footage has never been shown before now and never made it into the final cut of the movie." I was like, "DAYUM!! Sign me up 'cuz I ain't movin' from this seat!!!!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arreat Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 GO LEE!!! anywayz, i think lee could beat the cr*p out of tyson ive heard he can break stones and other stuff so his fist may pierce through tyson face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodrodius Posted November 14, 2002 Author Share Posted November 14, 2002 lol usetheforx, that post was by far the silliest. Anyways, after watching 120 minutes of UFC, I am reminded of how sloppy fighting becomes when two non compatible styles are pitted against eachother. In the UFC matches, even martial arts that are practiced with grace, such as Ninjitsu, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu, usually degenerate quickly in an all out attempt to subdue their opponents. Punching power comes into play heavily, take Tank Abbot for example. At first glance, he appears to be a heavy, sluggish, biker guy who goes around to bars and pick fights. But it's his explosive punching power that has made him so successful in UFC. Now I dont think anyone would debate that Tyson's punching power is easily 3 to 4x that of Abbots, and Abbot wins most of his matches through KO or TKO. Basically, the way techniques are designed, and the way they are actually executed are very different. Even the muay Thai kickboxers in the UFC generally don't land many solid kicks, and only on a few cases in UFC matches have I seen kicks be the fight-enders. Watch some UFC matches and you may see what Im talking about, I don't think that Lee could utilize all the grace and fluidity that he had in his films in a real fighting situation. After you watch some Tyson footage, and some UFC footage, you may start to get an idea of where im coming from. (If not agree with me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by Woodrodius Anyways, after watching 120 minutes of UFC, I am reminded of how sloppy fighting becomes when two non compatible styles are pitted against eachother. Exactly. The champions who continually defeat their opponents use a combination of "12th round" punching salvos and grappling. Karate and Kung Fu masters are no match for people like Ken Shamrock who just charges forward and wraps up his opponent like an octopus around a bluefish. Then he'll just start pounding wildly upon their head forcing them to submit. Why is that people like Shamrock are perpetual winners of these sanctioned "street fights" whereas the Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu masters never win? The proof's in the pudding. Give Tyson some Gracie-style grappling training and, in the day, he would've been world champion at that as well as having three different championship belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 May I remind you guys that the K-1 tournament was won by a Danish karate fighter for some times in a row (dunno about latest though) - he utilized some very graceful kicks throughout it all, and won the last fight with a pretty impressive kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by Boba Fife Exactly. The champions who continually defeat their opponents use a combination of "12th round" punching salvos and grappling. Karate and Kung Fu masters are no match for people like Ken Shamrock So true yet these "kicks work in real fights" fools still don't get it. Watch Ultimate fight and notice what happens to anyone that throws a kick. It goes like this.... Fighter 1 Kicks Fighter 2 takes or blocks kick then tackles fighter 1 Fighter 1 taps the ground in pain That fancy kicking crap works against poor fighters and in hollywood. Back to the thread topic how do you think Bruce "120lb" Lee would have done in Ultimate fighting against the heavy weights? I say he might win a match or two before getting beaten like a rag doll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by cjais May I remind you guys that the K-1 tournament was won by a Danish karate fighter for some times in a row (dunno about latest though) - he utilized some very graceful kicks throughout it all, and won the last fight with a pretty impressive kick. Thats nice but we are talking about the best of the best and K-1 doesn't have the best grapplers. You need brazilian fighters for that. Never forget that Royce Gracie is thin as a reed and has beaten almost everyone. He didn't use anything Bruce Lee ever invented, in fact his family made this technique. It doesn't just work in the movies this technique has actually been tested against the very best HUGE fighters. Fight pretty and you will leave ugly. Words to live by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike Thats nice but we are talking about the best of the best and K-1 doesn't have the best grapplers. You need brazilian fighters for that. Neither Lee or Tyson are grapplers. In order to grapple, you need to get close, something that severe pain from a kick is preventing you from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike Fight pretty and you will leave ugly. Words to live by. My new sig!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Ooof... I'd be so dead if I ended up in the ring some day. I've been practising a dozen different sports from track and field to soccer and karate, and all my coaches keep telling me: GOD DAMN IT! QUIT THE FANCY STUFF!! *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllKyNeSlll Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 first tyson would not be able to touch bruce lee second lee's stamina is much greater than tyson's **** however, lee is not the best martial artist in china though he is one of the most well known. becase, the best martial artists do not go to do movies. the best known martial artists in the world are the graduates of the Shaolin Shi (shaolin temple). however, even these do not compare anymore to the martial artists in the past. those people who goto most tournaments are martial artists for sport. the best do not practice martial arts as a sport. and however, weapons and fist are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by lllKyNeSlll first tyson would not be able to touch bruce lee second lee's stamina is much greater than tyson's **** however, lee is not the best martial artist in china though he is one of the most well known. becase, the best martial artists do not go to do movies. the best known martial artists in the world are the graduates of the Shaolin Shi (shaolin temple). however, even these do not compare anymore to the martial artists in the past. Yes yes we have all heard the myths. When these mystical warriors enter and win the global fighting competitions then maybe I will believe. However every martial artist that tries to rely on his speed and kicks in real fights gets his @ss kicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllKyNeSlll Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 first a kick is pretty much unblockable by weak people. a upward kick is powerful but slow. it has greater range than a punch cuz listen people squat more thn they bench. kicks are naturally more powerful chinese martial arts are naturally superior to japanese and korean stuff no offense but it just is. becuase taikwondo, karate, judo, jutjitsu stress more power. they are more similar to sports. however, kicking is best stopped by avoiding since they are much too slow in close range to help alone. just like a dfa a kick is less blockable and btw LEE"S FIST STYLE IS NOT KICKS. HE IS MORE PUNCH BASED. SINCE HE USES 32 STANDARD STYLES OF GONGFU BUT HE USES KICKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Watch a real fight between fighter that are NOT OF THE SAME STYLE, and see how immediately useless kicks are in 90% of all fights. If you try to kick a grappler you only play into his game plan and lose faster. Also is Bruce Lee got in a punching match with Tyson he would be knocked out in seconds. Tyson trained to hit an object hell bent on avoiding you, and showed many times that when he lands its lights out. Bruce never fought anyone as explosive and powerful as Tyson, in fact there are few people that have ever been that strong with punches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike Watch a real fight between fighter that are NOT OF THE SAME STYLE, and see how immediately useless kicks are in 90% of all fights. If you try to kick a grappler you only play into his game plan and lose faster. Also is Bruce Lee got in a punching match with Tyson he would be knocked out in seconds. Tyson trained to hit an object hell bent on avoiding you, and showed many times that when he lands its lights out. Bruce never fought anyone as explosive and powerful as Tyson, in fact there are few people that have ever been that strong with punches. Lee most likely wouldn't be hell-bent on avoiding Tyson, he'd be hell-bent on kicking his kneecaps out of their frame, before Tyson's punch would reach it's target. Regarding grapplers, legs once again have superior range to punches/grapples and can be delivered with just as much speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I had heard from a well-known sports commentator who was at one of Tyson's fights that when Tyson was warming up, he was throwing some punches in the air and in a split second punched a brick wall actually loosening and partially dislodging the brick in the wall!!! Are we still gonna argue about power? Cjais, I can see you're one who, like me, likes to have the last word in a given situation. An admirable quality, but I find myself having to concentrate on the other person's commentary so as not to appear as if I've already formulated my opinion without having fully absorbed the other's thought. I'm not saying, "Hey, you're not listening!" But, by the same token, I call 'em like I see 'em. I've seen the "kickers" in the UFC and they don't win!! They land a few good shots to be sure, but then they find themselves in a chokehold or being pummeled by two large fists in no time flat. Every time. Their style goes out the window when their adversary runs right in and grabs 'em and tosses 'em to the mat. Game over. Watch the next Ultimate Fighting Championship and you will see that the grapplers always win, not the ones who use their extremities as projectiles with exclusivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I'm not saying Tyson doesn't have power, but Lee most likely had that as well. I've heard of the UFC but never seen it - perhaps I should In K-1 though, the kickers tend to win, so that's what I've based my opinion on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungalow Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 You guys keep saying how Lee wouldn't last facing UFC guys but this isn't a thread about Lee vs Shamrock or any other UFC guy, its about Lee vs Tyson, Tyson can't grapple for nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodrodius Posted November 15, 2002 Author Share Posted November 15, 2002 I will admit that I have seen UFC fights won with kicks, but extremely rarely, and only because of some horrible mistake on the part of the person being kicked, (I.E. Slipping) Tank Abbot, who relies mainly on punching power, has never (too my knowledge) been beaten with kicks. All the fighters that reky more heavily on punching power were subdued with wrestling moves, or overpowered by a more powerful puncher. The one guy I saw that got taken out with a kick, was this super fat sumo guy, who dove for his oppenents waste, slipped and fell. Of course, being a fat guy, he slowly began to getting up using his arms, face down. (The worst way to get up from a fall) The other guy skipped in with a round to the face, and the doctor ended it because of the cut it made. So kicks work in very special case scenarios, but on the whole, they arent as useful as punches. And to the comment on Shaolin fighters. Once again, overrated fantasy stuff. As long as they stay up in the mountains and remain mysterious, people will always think they are invincible, and thats a cool thought, but if they stepped into the octagon, I think you'd be let down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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