Count Dooku will betray Darth Sidious!!!!!!

[Dragonlancer]

****************Possible Spoiler Warning ****************

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It just occured to me, this is only a theory mind you, but I think it is a good one. I think that Count Dooku turned to the dark side when he found out about sidious's control over the senate, but I think that he turned to Darth Sidious for the time for his own purposes. I came up with this theory on my own, and I looked through episode 2, specificly scenes with Dooku, to back up my theory. They are all minor things, but I think George Lucas is good at leaving very small clues for people to find.

 

1. Dooku and Obi-wan as a prisoner. It seems as though he was serious in asking Obi-Wan to join him, and equally serious about destroying the sith. Perhaps he was in over his head and needed help getting out.

 

2. Final Duel, after obi-wan and anakin had fallen. At that point dooku gave a heavy sigh, this could be due to the heat of the battle, or it could be at being forced to harm jedi.

 

3. Home coming with Dooku and Darth Sidious. Just a split second before the screen fades out to obi-wan mace windu and yoda, the screen sort of bounces over to the right so you can see dooku's face. If you look carefully, it appears he was frowning, perhaps at the thought of having been partly responsible for starting the Clone Wars.

 

Again, this was simply a theory. Tell me what you think please. Oh and one more thing. Dooku may be using the darth side of the force to try to cloud himself even from darth sidious, but when anakin turns to the darth side it goes wrong and anakin kills him. Or perhaps sidious himself.

[Maverick Knight]

Hmm...interesting idea. Knowing GL, we shouldn't discount ANYTHING yet. Jar-jar could turn out to be the big Sith Lord Surprise, for all we know.

 

But a few of my own takes on that stuff:

 

1. Dooku's sales pitch to Obi-wan. This could just as easily have been an example of Dooku's charisma. He did organize that ragtag group of bad-guys and manage to get the Clone Wars rolling, after all. And he's supposed to be rich, too, so we can assume he's just naturally persuasive.

 

2. Dooku's sigh. This could have been because he was disgusted with how easily he was able to take on and defeat two Jedis at once. I'll have to watch the DVD when I get it to see how he did the sigh, though.

 

3. Dooku's frown. Don't remember. Will have to watch it on the DVD.

[ET Warrior]

I think that everyone forgets that Dooku WAS going to kill obiwan after he knocked him down. His saber was lifted above his head and he was bringing it down to lop of obi's head when anakin saved him with his big old leap.

[Purple_Tentacle]

Originally posted by Maverick Knight

And he's supposed to be rich, too, so we can assume he's just naturally persuasive.

 

the force can have a strong influence on the weak minded.

do you think that the jedi mind trick only works for the jedi ? sidious and dooku would have been using the mind trick all over the shop to get the events of ep.2 in order.

 

most notably sidious uses the mind trick on jarjar in order to get him to suggest the military creation act. he made pademe leave couracant because he knew that gungans were very easily influenced by the mind trick.

 

well thats what i think anyways

[Pad]

hmm, could be there is some truth in dragonlancers theory. as we know dooku will get killed in epIII. it could be dooku had still some good in him and thats why he got kiled by anakin or sidious. i think thats more likely then a jedi do the trick.

[Sivy]

i think it will happen like this

 

 

dooku still has to honour the agreement to the trade federation and kill padme, after finding out that anakin is sercertly married to padme, sidious sends dooku to do the job himself. (because sidious wants anakin) dooku will kill padme, but it wont be padme, it will be a decoy. anakin won't know this and seek revenge, anakin kills dooku and his transition to the darkside is complete, obi-wan goes after anakin, they fight, along comes sidious to pick up the pieces, vader is born - jedi die

[Dragonlancer]

Padanime, yes that's what I was basically what I was getting at.

 

Sivy B, yeah I think that's a very valid theory. It could very well happen like that. Perhaps sidious will use dooku to kill anakin, therefore driving him mad and making him strike down dooku. And as you said obi-wan goes after him and pleads with him to turn back to the light side, anakin gets ticked off and comes at him. Obi-wan tears him appart eventually. (please note that I do not believe this will be a one way duel, anakin will almost beat him but obi will win) Obi-wan walks away thinking it was over, sidious comes along and picks up the peices. The jedi purge begins.

[JediNyt]

Dooku may be still struggling with his new lifestyle persay but regardless he is under Sidious power. If he is having any second thoughts they will disapear in short time. Thats how the Sith work. He is the apprentice and Sidious is the master. Vader who is better than Tyranus could not overcome Sidious power over him until his powerful son stirred up the Light in him, causing him to want to save his son from electricution. Dooku is not like that. As powerful as he is, he is under Sidious power. He serves his master dutifly. Now if a great oportunity came to take Sidious place he may go for it, as any Sith may. But it would have to be an extraordinary oportunity which Sidious will never give him. Remember Vader said "I must obey my master.". Dooku aint some freelance Sith. Thats ludicrous. A master and an apprentice. Thats the way it is. Sidious and Tyranus are the Sith. And the rest writes itself, period.

[Count Dooku 2]

Count Dooku is a dark lord of the Sith, and would never betray his master. Next to patience, the Sith Lord's greatest strength is loyalty, and Count Dooku is a Sith Lord through and through. His 'sales pitch' to Obi-Wan was only to try and rally supporters to the Confederacy, not to the Sith Lords. His heavy sigh was in reaction to the outcome to the lightsaber duel: he had to disable two Jedi, and he was always looking for a quiet getaway from Geonosis. As for the frown (which is on the DVD), this is meerly a thought-provoked frown. The Clone Wars have just started, and there is much to think about if you are the second most important person on your side.

 

Count Dooku IS Darth Tyranus, and would never betray Darth Sidious. Sith Lords never betray their masters.

[Maverick Knight]

Let me be the first to say that Vader betrayed Palpatine.

 

[Dragonlancer]

count dooku 2, I quote Mace Windu. "You forget that count dooku was once a jedi." My point is that, as Maverick Knight said, vader also was once a jedi, but he turned on palpatine. Why not dooku? Think about it.

[Jedi_Monk]

I think you've got it backwards... I think Palpatine betrays Dooku. Dooku was only doing Palpatine's will when he told Obi-Wan about the Sith being in control of the Senate... the Jedi are going to be, "keeping a closer eye on the Senate", which may well lead to them being accused of treason... the obvious result of that little power play would be the Jedi purge.

 

[dorain8]

I DONT THINK HE WILL BUT I HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP, JUST PURE THOUGHT

 

 

BUT TO DEFEND YOUR IDEA,

 

DOOKU WAS INFACT IN THE LIBRARY THING WHERE OBIWAN WAS TRYING TO FIND KAMINO

 

AND HE WAS ONE OF THE BEST JEDI EVER

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HE COULD HAVE JUST BEEN TEMPTING OBIWAN TO JOIN HIS SIDE, NOT AS A SITH BUT AS AN ALLY

[Count Dooku 2]

Just because Count Dooku was once a Jedi (like Anakin) doesn't mean that he will betray Darth Sidious.

 

Darth Vader killed Palpatine when his son, Luke, was in trouble and close to death. He was defending his son, and felt emotion when he saw Luke dying. Count Dooku has no son or daughter for this to happen, nor does he have an emotional attachment to any of the Jedi which will be killed in Episode III. There is nothing to get in his way.

[Purple_Tentacle]

but dooku wants to rule the galaxy, not be No.2

[Jedi_Monk]

but dooku wants to rule the galaxy, not be No.2

No, Dooku is disillusioned with everything, especially the Jedi Order. I don't think he has any interest in being the Master.

 

[Purple_Tentacle]

i think that the offer made to obi-wan was genuine, and dooku would have joined with obiwan and destroyed sidious. maybe.

i dunno....

 

2006 ?>!?!>?!>?

 

humph

[Dragonlancer]

Count Dooku 2, I see where your coming from but I still think he might turn back. He was trained by yoda, so yoda would be thought of, at least in part, as a friend. Notice that when he pushed the pillar over so yoda would catch it, he didn't just stab him, he ran away. Possible because escape was his first priority, or perhaps he didn't actually have the intention of killing yoda. And, unless I'm mistaken, he even called mace windu "old friend" and he also seemed to have an attatchment to qui-gon jinn "I could use his help right now."

 

Hehe, wouldn't it be funny if we actually had lucas figured out but he saw this and changed the script just so we wouldn't have the pleasure of having gotten it right? lol:D

[Darth Talliusc]

this is actually very funny. i made a thread on this topic a while back at the swamp and got nothing but flames in return. so i shut my mouth. i agree with your theory completely and i ahve some evidence to add

 

 

first: dooku couldve chopped anakin quite easily when yoda walked in but he didnt, he turned and started talking. now dooku;s not an idiot he couldve finished anakin right there and pissed yoda off, this wouldve disrupted yoda's concentration and allowed dooku to do better in the fight.

 

 

second: when dooku takes down the pillar to crush obi/anakin he couldve easily attacked yoda onc

 

 

e more but hes content to let everybody live... why? when he couldve killed them all... or at least 1 of em.

 

 

third: what could he gain from that sales pitch to obi-wan? his aid in destroying the sith and thats it. if obi-wan agreed then we wouldnt have to worry bout sid imo. but if dooku knew he'd be turned and down and was acting from pure evil then what could he gain? i cant see anything. that scene reminds me of ep5 when vader offers to help luke kill the emperor and then rule the galaxy. he was serious then and dooku was serious in ep2.

 

 

dooku gave obi-wan the chacne to back down and let him leave geonosis but he was pushed into fighting. he couldnt really help it. he played quite defensively trying to incapacitate the jedi so he could leave.

 

 

we all know that tyranus hired jango ten years before ep2. which was the time of ep1 and the resurgence of the sith into the known galaxy.

 

we know that dooku can take pretty much any jedi. i mean he handed anakin AND obi-wan their asses and still had enough fight left to beat yoda. sure he didnt kill yoda but he got what he wanted. if the best of the jedi cant take Dooku then who will? simple only a dark lord of the sith could do that. imo it will be either sid who kills him or more likely anakin when hes goin darkside. Sidious wants Anakin to be his right hand, hes simply got more potential then Dooku does. but you cant have 2 apprentices thats the sith rule only 2 shall there ever be. so sid needs to be rid of Dooku to take Anakin under his wing.

 

we also know that Dooku doesnt survive ep3, because hes not in the sequels, so he MUST die.

 

 

 

 

 

well theres my theory. there will be more added as it comes to me but please dont turn this into a flame war like the last Dooku betrays Sid thread i saw.

[Jedi_Monk]

first: dooku couldve chopped anakin quite easily when yoda walked in but he didnt, he turned and started talking. now dooku;s not an idiot he couldve finished anakin right there and pissed yoda off, this wouldve disrupted yoda's concentration and allowed dooku to do better in the fight.

See, Jedi can only use the Force for knowledge and defense... never for attack. Which basically means, Jedi don't believe in pre-emptive strikes. But they can use the Force in their own defense, or in the defense of somebody else... and when they use the Force, they only use the least possible amount possible to accomplish their intention. The more urgent the situation, the more violent the responce would have to be.

 

If Dooku had tried to kill Anakin right there, Yoda would've done what he had to to save his fellow Jedi. And whatever he decided to do, it wouldn't be good for Dooku's health, I can tell you that!

 

second: when dooku takes down the pillar to crush obi/anakin he couldve easily attacked yoda once more but hes content to let everybody live... why? when he couldve killed them all... or at least 1 of em.

Dooku learned a very important lesson there: do not underestimate Yoda. Who knows what Yoda would have done if Dooku had attacked him then? Remember, size matters not. Maybe Yoda would've thrown the pillar at Dooku's ship, effectively screwing him over.

 

third: what could he gain from that sales pitch to obi-wan? his aid in destroying the sith and thats it. if obi-wan agreed then we wouldnt have to worry bout sid imo. but if dooku knew he'd be turned and down and was acting from pure evil then what could he gain? i cant see anything. that scene reminds me of ep5 when vader offers to help luke kill the emperor and then rule the galaxy. he was serious then and dooku was serious in ep2.

What could Dooku have gained by telling Obi-Wan about the Sith? Here's an exert from the Adventures of Luke Starkiller (George Lucas, 1975):

As the Republic spread throughout the galaxy, encompassing over a million worlds, the GREAT SENATE grew to such overwhelming proportions that it no longer responded to the needs of its citizens. After a series of assassinations and elaborately rigged elections, the Great Senate became secretly controlled by the Power and Transport guilds. When the Jedi discovered the conspiracy and attempted to purge the Senate, they were denounced as traitors.

Now, replace the "Power and Transport guilds" with "The Sith" and you have the same exact senario, with a different baddie behind it. Dooku revealed the "conspiracy", which results in the Jedi "attempting to purge the senate" which gets the Jedi "denounced as traitors", which results in the Jedi Purge. So what did the Sith gain by revealing their intentions to the Jedi? They got the opportunity to annhilate their greatest enemies, with the galaxy backing them.

 

[JediNyt]

Or he told Obi that story knowing Obi wouldnt believe him so the Jedi wouldnt be suspicious of the Senate. Like reverse psycology. Tell them what you know they wont believe so it sements that disbelief even more. Makes perfect sense. But in this case Dookus attempt didnt work as well as he hoped cause the Jedi are still suspicious of the Senate. But they arent sure about Sidious.

[Darth Talliusc]

not bad jedi monk. not bad at all. but i think that we are going to have to agree that we have entirely different opinions here.

 

 

as for your first explanation, that Yoda couldve stopped Dooku from killing Anakin well i dont think he could. and if he could then with what? the only things that could possibly stop Dooku from doing that that Yoda would hesitate to use later in the fight are things that would kill Dooku. if Yoda knew how to stun the ol count then he wouldve used it in the battle

 

 

the lethal moves are the only ones that could actually make sense for yoda to hold back until needed, but what are they? i dont believe that anything that yoda can dish out can kill that quickly. you say he wouldve done everything necessary to stop Dooku but things like lightning are blockable and things like Grip wouldnt kill him so he couldve used it in the lightsaber battle easily.

 

another requirement for Yodas counter: it would have to be very very fast to stop a quick downstroke like that from Dooku. and yoda wasnt even visible yet, he was still around the corner. in my opinion theres just no way that Yoda couldve stopped Dooku from killing Anakin. no way at all.

 

 

 

 

your second explanation is far more believable and i suppose you forced me to agree. i know id be scared and running if Yoda was that close to me. and after careful watching Yoda only put his lightsaber down after Dooku turned to run, he knew that that threat was done. you were right.

 

 

 

as for the explanation bout the sales pitch, well thats possible but i doubt it. the jedi wouldnt take apart the senate. they simply cant. i dont think that Dooku's word means much to them anyways. and for that old storyline thing: im inclined to believe nothing that GL wrote way back then. i mean luke was originally going to be a frickin GIRL! hes changed his mind so many times that id be surprised if he did use anything like his old story. read the original script for EP3 and laugh at how impossible that would be to work with the setup now. times change, ideas change to suit the market, and GL changes too.

 

im interested to hear your thoughts and thanks for keeping this reasonable and not turning it into a "you're stupid you're so wrong" type arguement.

[Old Rep Knight]

This is a long thread to read through. My only point to point out here is this.

 

Yoda trained Dooku. Dooku trained Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan trained Anakin. It's a direct line between them all. Remember in TESB Obi-Wan tells look to go to Dagobah to seek out the Jedi Master that instructed him, Yoda. Basically Obi-Wan was instructed by Yoda because Qui-Gon and Dooku had been. And as Obi-Wan is fond of stating, it all depends on your point of view. His point of view, in terms of Luke, is telling him the remaining Jedi in the galaxy, Yoda, was his instructor to give Luke confidence about Yoda (since he would have no idea how great Yoda used to be, and really still is).

 

Anyway, keep in mind who trained who.

[Jedi_Monk]

as for your first explanation, that Yoda couldve stopped Dooku from killing Anakin well i dont think he could. and if he could then with what? the only things that could possibly stop Dooku from doing that that Yoda would hesitate to use later in the fight are things that would kill Dooku. if Yoda knew how to stun the ol count then he wouldve used it in the battle

Like I said, I believe that Jedi would use the least amount of Force possible to accomplish their goals. Yoda was confident that he could take Dooku, and was basically never on the defense throughout that whole fight, never pressed sufficiently--so why would have have to pull out the big guns?

 

another requirement for Yodas counter: it would have to be very very fast to stop a quick downstroke like that from Dooku. and yoda wasnt even visible yet, he was still around the corner. in my opinion theres just no way that Yoda couldve stopped Dooku from killing Anakin. no way at all.

Anakin jumped about fifty feet to put his lightsaber in the way of Dooku's before he killed Obi-Wan... and Anakin's only been training as a Jedi 10 years and didn't even have the basic training that would, under normal circumstances, have been taught to him by Yoda before he was taken as a Padawan Learner. Plus, you have to acknowledge that Jedi can read thoughts, or at least intentions... "I sense much fear in you..." and so on. If Yoda had sensed that Dooku was going to kill Anakin, he would've gotten there a lot quicker. But Dooku stopped what he was doing and turned to await Yoda's arrival, probably knowing that it would be safer.

 

I've never read that Episode III script... I've heard that it was written by George Lucas, but there are a lot of things out there that claimed to have been written by him. Anyway, Lucas does go back to these early drafts sometimes. The term Padawan (used in the same way as it's used in the Prequels, at that), the name Valorum and Cliegg can all be found in The Adventures of Luke Starkiller. Anyway, we won't know one way or the other until SW3's up on the big screen, I was just offering that senaro as another way that Dooku's offer could be interpreted, since you said that you couldn't imagine any other way

 

[Darth Talliusc]

thanks, you've given me much to think about. and now that i look back, i cant prove that the draft i read was actually BY GL so maybe im even more wrong then i thought.

 

in my opinion Yoda is smart enough to know a Dooku alive and well is a Dooku thats going to tear the galaxy apart. Yoda shouldve taken the risk and used anything and everything he had to stop Dooku. maybe you're right and Yoda really wouldve stopped Dooku from killing Anakin but i just think that the fact we didnt see anything that big from Yoda means he doesnt have it in him.

 

as for yoda being on the offense the whole fight, well it may seem that way but he did pull back and retreat a fair bit. that bounce off the ships side for one was definitely not an offensive move on Yoda's part.

 

and as for Yoda being able to move that fast because Anakin got under Dooku's blade from 50 feet away brings up a new arguement for me.

 

if Anakin can move that quickly then why couldnt Dooku *an acknowledged master at the jedi arts* move quicker? if a Padawan can jump that fast then shouldnt a master be able to cut a little bit faster as he had much less area to cover and much more precise saber swipes?

 

granted jedi can move very very quickly but i dont think that means that they can move faster then Dooku, hes quite the powerful man and the force is very strong in him.

 

 

so i wonder: did Dooku lower his saber slowly on Obi-wan because he KNEW that anakin would come for the rescue? other then establishing himself as an enemy of the jedi i cant see why he'd do this but i guess i cant understand the mind of a warwaging count who'll stand up to yoda.

 

that seems a bit farfetched to me but i think that ppl heading into ESB with no knowledge of whats to come would scoff at the thought of Luke being Vaders son too. we wont know until ep3 but i for one think that there is more to Dooku then a crusty old villain who dies in ep3.