Snipers

[Sithmaster_821]

Game balance is NOT making balance among forumers, but among units. t3 is early on for cloaking. Cloak makes them too strong vs workers

[darthfergie]

No cloak.

 

I liked the way snipers were handled on RA2 myself. No cloak, slow reload, instant kill on all infantry, nearly impossible to kill anything else.

 

if you added cloak I could just sit back and snipe at your worker train and before you could say "bob's your uncle" your resource collection comes grinding to a halt and the sniper moves back into a hiding spot for another 5 minutes then moves out to a safe spot again and repeat...You have to get a detector unit over there and keep him posted...in fact keep them everywhere and stock up on them to...since most detector units are a type of infantry...

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

Simwiz - i disagree. (1) The two have totally different combat applications. (2) While the strike mech is more for large scale battles, (3) the sniper is more like the Jedi Starfighter - nuisance raids and small scale attacks. (4) Also, remember that if there is a SW:GB2 there might not be a strike mech.

 

1 - They are the same. What stops strike mechs from being used as raiders? What stops snipers from being used in large battles?

 

2 - The strike mech is used as a raider too. In strategies such as the mech rush, strikes run around and kill workers, small groups of troops, etc.

 

3 - Why couldn't one use the sniper to kill the enemy's troops in a large battle?

 

4 - I already said that there may not be one - but if I had the choice of including a strike mech or a sniper I would choose a strike mech.

[Sithmaster_821]

Simwiz, strikes would be faster, more expensive, able to take more punishment, and come from a separate building

 

Snipers are slower, cheaper, stronger attack wise, longer range, reload longer, but come from the troop center.

 

In the early game, snipers are the best counter for a t3 player against a rush or trooper oriented army. In the late game, they are essentially SM's for trooper strong civs. They also would serve as effective killers of outlying workers

[CorranSec]

Okay. I'll say it again. Cloaking will not make snipers ultra-powerful against workers.

Most of them time your workers will be within your main base/forward base/side base. It will be impossible for snipers to get inside any base unless it has no walls/fixed defenses and no unit defenders other than troopers. Even if they get inside, workers should be able to garrison inside some kind of structure, and that would kill all the snipers.

Even if your workers happen to be away from a base getting resources, only a fairly inept or confused player would leave them unprotected. If they're only protected by troopers... well, that's what the sniper's designed to do, so it's not really a bad thing.

 

Thus:

Snipers are irritants and can prey on unprotected troopers/workers. Due to their 'pop limit,' they wouldn't be able to stop a large trooper army, but they could deter rushes. But you wouldn't get many/any trooper-only rushes at the time when snipers are available (middle-late game).

Thus:

Cloak would not overpower the sniper, just make it better at what it's meant to do.

[Darth Windu]

After weighting up the opposing arguments, i think it would be best to leave the sniper without a cloak, really there's no reason for it.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu has seen the light!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Admiral Vostok]

I've been thinking a lot about snipers, and the only example I can think of in Star Wars is when Jango kills Zam with the Kamino Saber Dart. So maybe to make it more like that we should give them a HUGE reload time, like as long as an Air Cruiser, so the best way to use them would be to fire then run away. It would be hard to use a group of them without being micro-intensive. You'd have to assign a different target to each sniper. They shouldn't be cloaked but should have a pretty big range, maybe as much as an upgraded Assault Mech.

 

I think they should be not very good against Workers. If they're using a poison-dart they wouldn't be able to kill droids anyway, and for the civs with biological units as Workers, well Gameplay>Realism so they wouldn't die either.

[CorranSec]

Windu.... *sigh* *groan* *smash head against wall*

Have you missed everything that I've said? It's obvious that there is a point (or a number of points) to snipers having cloaking. I'll give you a few.

1. It fits in with the realism and everyone's accepted ideals of snipers (sneaky, unseen killers).

2. It will make them better at what they do (ambushes and picking on unprotected targets).

3. It will make a bit more than a few wandering troopers required to kill them (you need a detector).

4. It balances them!

 

Vostok:

You quote the adage of "Gameplay>Realism"..... yet your entire argument is based on the fact that snipers are armed with Kaminoan darts, a heavy reliance on realism. Well, it's pretty clear that in the interests of gameplay, they're not. They're armed with long-ranged sniper weapons. And thus, the stats stay.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, Gameplay>Realism can be misinterpreted a lot, so I'm going to introduce a new concept:

 

Realism creates Gameplay, but Gameplay is more important.

 

Obviously you need to start with a real concept before you can make a gameplay concept. But if complying too much to that real concept gets in the way of gameplay, it should be simplified to a more acceptable gameplay concept.

 

So the fact that snipers are armed with darts (realism) creates the way they work in the game. The real concept that darts would be useless against machines but great against biological units is upheld in gameplay. However, this creates a gameplay problem when considering workers, who can be both mechanical or biological. So, to balance gameplay, which in this case would suffer by adherance to realism, all workers, be they mechanical or biological, would have a high resistance to snipers.

 

Snipers should NOT be armed with a sniper rifle like the one seen in Jedi Outcast when the dart rifle works better in the case of realism and practicality in gameplay. As far as the Star Wars movies show us, a rifle like the Jedi Outcast gun does not exist, but a dart-launching gun does (and is presumably common, as Obi-Wan doesn't appear shocked that someone could be killed by a poison dart).

 

Now lets think of how a sniper would be represented in the game. Using the Jedi Outcast gun, an unbroken beam from the gun to the target would appear, instantly giving away the assassin's location. Using the Dart Gun, you would hear the crack of the shot going off but no line connecting the target and the shooter. It would be far more atmospheric I think. Why would a sniper use a gun that instantly gives away his position? He wouldn't. Sure, we as the god-like entity we are instantly can see who shot the dart, as any fog of war covering them will be revealed as soon as they shoot. But our units down on the ground might have no idea.

 

So the dart gun appeals to realism (whereas the other gun does not), works well in terms of representation in the game as an actual gun a sniper would use (whereas the other gun does not), and the way it works in gameplay is not overpowered but tweaked enough to comply to both a realistic representation and a balanced but valuable weapon (which the other gun would do anyway).

 

In summary my idea is good.

[CorranSec]

As far as the SW movies show us, the dart-launching gun doesn't actually exist, and is in fact extremely rare- only one has been shown, and that belongs to Jango Fett, a bounty hunter who only has the very best weapons.

 

However, both movies and EU (and common sense) have shown us that a great variety of laser weapons exist, and EU has shown the use of sniper-type laser rifles. I'm sure there is a DL-some number Sniper Rifle out there somewhere.

 

Obi isn't shocked that someone could be killed by a poison dart. Of course! People get killed by poison darts! However, owning a dart-shooter might be quite shocking. But I doubt that Obi would be shocked by anything.

It is, however, shown that the dart itself is quite rare. On the other hand, laser weapons are common, and.... (look above)

 

The dart gun is an actual gun a sniper would use? Yes... most snipers are expert bounty hunters, have a collection of priceless weapons, and so on...

No. The snipers would go to somewhere that sells guns and simply pick up a sniper laser rifle. Or the military force they serve would provide the sniper laser rifles.

 

Your thoughts about the crack of the shot, an unbroken beam and the like are clear examples of Realism>Gameplay thinking. In the interests of gameplay, we can make the beam move between the shooter and the target quite quickly. Or we could stop the shooter from being revealed.

[Sithmaster_821]

I think that the quick projectile idea would be better. Corran, even Windu (who I must congradulate on his reformation) has agreed that the cloak is overpowered and completely unfair. Even if it doesnt over power snipers (it does), it tips the court heavily in favor of trooper strong civs

[CorranSec]

Let me get this straight. You're trying to convince me that trooper-strong civs with big trooper armies would get absolutely massacred by 10 cloaked snipers?

Okay.

* They wouldn't. 10 snipers, even against a stupid player, should only be able to take out a score or so of unaccompanied troopers before a different kind of unit is called in to help

* Even if the civ is great with troopers, no player would have a force made up entirely of troopers. If they did, well, not only is that what the sniper is good at killing, but they deserve to get slaughtered anyway.

All it takes is a few mechs, aircraft, whatever- or even one good Jedi!- and the sniper-using player would run them away. And if he doesn't, they get killed. Simple.

 

In fact, I daresay that without cloaking, snipers are underpowered.

[Admiral Vostok]

First, you can't use EU to argue that sniper rifles probably exist. You can't use EU to argue anything in Star Wars, because it is not Star Wars (see my arguments for this elsewhere).

 

Now, imagine you are a sniper living in the Star Wars galaxy. What do snipers do?

They kill troopers from a great distance.

The killing should only take one shot.

They want to remain hidden so any of the trooper's friends won't know where you are.

 

You walk into Elan Sleazebaggano's Bargain Gun Basement (which he opened after being prompted to rethink his life by a Jedi). He says "You wanna buy some death-sticks, uh, I mean guns?" You say "Sure, what have you got?"

 

He shows you two guns, the first is a DL-1138 Sniper Rifle. It fires a plasma-laser beam similar to that used by the smaller DL-models, except with far greater range. The second is a simple and almost primitive dart-launching gun, with an equal range to the first. You think back to your list of things snipers do.

Both can kill troopers from a great distance.

Both can kill in only one shot.

The laser-based weapon will instantly give away your location, even to an unexpecting victim. The projectile gun will keep you hidden that bit longer.

 

Seeing the obvious choice for a sniper of your skill, you pay our reformed-drug-dealer friend and grab your new projectile gun.

 

 

Thinking a bit harder, I've come up with two other situations where a sniper rifle-like weapon is seen.

 

First, in the Boota Pod Race, the Tusken Raiders camped out on the Canyon Dune Turn are firing projectile weapons at the pods. While not stricltly a sniper weapon, the Sandpeople are using the guns to target extremely fast moving vehicles, so they can't be too bad in the fields of both range and accuracy.

 

But the second situation no-one can deny is a sniper-rifle. It is what Zam uses to shoot down her droid that has Obi-Wan hanging on. It has targetting stuff and everything. It is a way better example of a sniper-rifle than even the dart-launcher Jango uses. And what is it? A projectile gun.

 

So clearly projectile weapons are far better than laser weapons when it comes to snipers. That is my main point. Not that the projectile should be a dart, but that the weapon should be a projectile weapon.

 

Far superior than a laser weapon when you're a sniper.

[Darth Windu]

corran - would it be possible for you to explain why the sniper, with the abilities i listed a few posts back (minus cloaking), would be underpowered?

[CorranSec]

Windu- er, the one you suggested a little while back did have some form of cloaking, but it's not good enough anyway.

The whole point of a sniper is that they don't give away the position. The current GB's idea that cloaked units reveal themselves when they shoot basically removed the usefulness of cloaked units for fighting.

Minus cloaking, the whole point and objective of the sniper is gone. The sniper fires in secret. The sniper cannot be seen. The sniper cannot be found by a randomly wandering fighter/mech/whatever and ruthlessly slaughtered.

Without cloaking, even troopers would have more of a chance against snipers. They might see one en route and start shooting him up. The sniper would only be able to take down a couple before being fried. Good? No. Wow, the sniper falls to the people he's supposed to kill just because he doesn't have cloaking. Damn, if only they had cloaking.... it would have been much more balanced!

 

Vostok-

You can indeed use EU to argue things about SW because it is SW, but I'm not going to go into that here.

Elan Sleazebaggo's ancient primitive dart launcher wouldn't be able to do any of the three things you pointed out, primarily because it's ancient and primitive. Do you really think that any good sniper would take a projectile weapon in the SW time of lasers and high-tech stuff? It just doesn't fit! The Tuskens are primitive, so they can have them. I'm not sure about the gun Zam used. How can you be sure it was projectile? (I haven't seen Ep II that many times...)

Oh, and what about that woman (who wasn't a tusken) who also fired at the podracers? I don't think she had a projectile weapon...

 

Why, oh why oh why oh why, would the laser gun give away your location? It wouldn't! It makes little noise, the laser travels very fast, and you can run away- or stay to kill some more!

The projectile gun would travel slower and do far less damage. Honestly, what is better- some kind of projectile (rock? arrow?) or an armor-piercing flesh-shredding fast-moving laser?

 

And to quote yourself, it doesn't fit with SW. Projectile weapons have no place in this game of lasers, starships, jetpacks and.... some other SW thing.

[Darth Windu]

Actually vostok's right. The firing of a laser (in SW) would give away the firing position, whereas a projectile such as a dart would be extremely difficult to spot, and would be much more stealthy than a laser.

[Admiral Vostok]

Of course I'm right. I'm sorry Corran, I respected your posts until now but obviously you haven't seen Star Wars enough to know much about it. Have you ever played Jedi Outcast? Play it and you'll see what I mean by lasers giving away a snipers position. If those snipers fired a projectile that wasn't lit up, they would be almost impossible to kill.

 

To say projectiles don't fit in Star Wars means you haven't watched it enough. Yes lasers are mostly used because they are cheaper, easier to maintain and are more powerful than a projectile weapon. But projectile weapons provide stealth, which is more important to a sniper than overkill in the strength department. One well-placed projectile shot will do enough damage, and keep the firer concealed. Watch Episode 2 again before you make yourself look sillier and see Zam's sniper rifle.

 

What you're saying about projectile weapons not fitting with lasers, starships and jetpacks shows you really don't understand Star Wars. George Lucas mixed this futuristic things with more primitive ideas, to give a sense of realism to Star Wars. Sure in Star Trek a projectile weapon wouldn't fit, but as you're an EU fan I assume you also like Star Trek (which is what EU is more like). So by your argument Stormtroopers shouldn't ride dewbacks because mounted troopers are too primitive. Chewbacca should wear clothes because he looks too primitive. The Naboo shouldn't value stone-work of steel because it's too primitive. The Millennium Falcon shouldn't have fluffy dice in the cockpit because it's too retro (believe me it does). And Jabba the Hutt? Well he's one big symbol of uncouth primitivity. Get rid of him too.

 

By the way you do know who George Lucas is don't you?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Come on that's silly! Projectile or not...it's not that important in GB!

[CorranSec]

Sheesh, Vostok. What have I done now?

Of course I've played Jedi Outcast. The sniper rifles in GB2 don't have to be exactly the same as the Disruptors in JO.

Just because I haven't watched the movies a huge number of times doesn't mean I'm extremely stupid. Let me further explain what I was trying to say. I meant that sniper laser rifles would fit in more with the whole futuristic science-fiction feel of the movies and the game (hopefully it will have that feel).

 

Sure, Jango's high-tech darts might fit, but I've already shown how they don't work with the sniper. It's other kinds of projectile weapons which really concern me. Did Zam really have a sniper rifle with bullets? What precisely did it fire? And what about Aurra Sing?

 

I'm not saying that all of those things you mentioned are 'too primitive.' They actually have good reasons for being used instead of high-tech things. For snipers, however, a laser rifle would be more effective, and we have the ability to change what the lasers look like in the game.

 

We should really stop worrying and arguing about this. It really doesn't matter all that much anyway!

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - actually star trek does use projectile weapons. In one particular DS9 episode, one of the characters uses a projectile weapon to find a murderer.

[Admiral Vostok]

You're right, I apologise, I got carried away. Really the only thing we're arguing is whether to have a bright coloured line or not for a sniper's shot.

 

Reviewing AOTC again, I can also see how Zam's weapon could be taken as not being a projectile weapon. However it is, and I believe the EU surrounding Aurra Sing's weapon says it too is a projectile weapon.

 

What I'm arguing though is that so far all evidence of sniper rifles in Star Wars movies and EU relating to long-barrelled rifle weapons seen in the movies but not fired calls them projectile weapons. That's the way it is. I suppose I wouldn't care if it's a laser rifle in GB, but we haven't seen them in the movies whereas we have seen projectile sniper rifles.

 

So once again I apologise. So I'll get the thread back on topic.

 

I think if snipers are not cloaked, but if they have a reload time equal to an air cruiser, they will not be over powered. It could be pretty cool I think. Let's say they could fire from outside most units LOS. You get a message that you're being attacked, so you go to the place on the map from which the message was sent. You see a dead trooper, and a few other alive troopers and say "whatever just attacked me I guess those guys finished it off." But a few seconds later another trooper is dead. So you send out the troopers to find the sniper, but he's already retreated back home. Could be cool.

[lukeiamyourdad]

One problem with darts. How are you gonna kill a battle droid with darts?

[CorranSec]

Luke's dad- the darts argument is over now.

 

Vostok- that's basically the same effect a cloaked sniper would have, except that they don't have to run away every time. With cloaking, you wouldn't have the slightest idea where the sniper is-unlike using snipers without cloaking, where a single fast non-trooper could waltz over and take out the sniper. Which is understandably not to be desired.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Maybe they should be faster then regular troopers, faster then grenade troopers...