Official SWGB 2 GB.com Thread

[Admiral Vostok]

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say. Civ bonuses are silly when each civ should be very different from each other.

 

I was almost beginning to think you'd abandoned this thread, Corran. I had begun to assume you had agreed with my comments, and since you made no rebuttal in that post I shall continue to do so.

[CorranSec]

*sigh* I was hoping you wouldn't notice. This debate is probably one of the most irritating in existence. Can we stop it sometime soon?

Anyway.

 

Stats- It will be balanced so there is no uber-combination. This is not so difficult as you make it out to be. I mean, games everywhere have perfectly balanced choices of stats. Just yesterday I was playing an Xbox game called Deathrow. It's a kind of extreme sports game, and really difficult to explain, so I'll just get straight to the point. Each team has a different set of stats, and there are about 10, including Strength, Speed, Offense, Team Play, and so on. The Sea Cats excel at a speedy offense, while the Crushers are good at totally crushing the opposition with their slow yet strong attacks. By the same token, one Field Officer might be speedy, while others might be slow yet tough as nails.

 

Realism- Generals does have some good elements of realism, but the fact is, this is a game. Terrorist buildings have little 'holes' which allow them to be rebuilt? Yeah, right... The Chinese Propaganda Center makes your units better? Yeah, right...

But it's still a good game as a game, with realism in third place (behind graphics), as it should be.

 

Jedi Officers- Look. Jedi are Jedi, Field Officers are Field Officers, and each are cool, fun and semi-realistic without any combinations necessary. Balancing stat combinations is possible, and having Jedi Powers instead of stat combinations is just a foolish second-rate attempt at stats. The whole point of Officers are Officer Powers, and having uber-Jedi instead of FOs is not the way to go.

My way does create interesting and unique stat-combinations, and the fact that yours has uber-Jedi instead is going to ruin the entire concept of FOs that I've been running with from the start. My way still has dozens of Officer powers to choose from- but if you can accept stats in the form of Officer powers, why not stats in the form of....... well, stats?

[Admiral Vostok]

I agree the topic is now tired and irritating, so let me have the last word:

 

Customisable stats, while perfect for FPS, RPG, Sports games and so on, are not perfect for a medium-scale RTS. It is just too inconsequential. Why alter stats for one guy when it is most important how your whole army operates?

[Darth Windu]

Originally posted by CorranSec

Windu: Even with the aid of Word, the reasoning behind your choices are still quite hard to see for me.

(1) As Vostok said, why are huge elements of this game generic? Why not have nearly totally unique unit sets? (2) Why have silly little things like GB1's civ bonuses to generate realism (eg all Imp fighters cheaper) when you can have uniqueness (eg TIEs being cheap, weak and mass-produced, while X-Wings are more expensive and stronger).

(3) It just seems so much like GB1, with a few bits of uniqueness. For example, there still seems to be a Strike Mech, Mech Destroyer, Assault Mech and Scout, (4) while Air is still lying around being ignored as a true class of its own.

And here's a major gripe- you've completely ignored air. Air and Jedi are the most important parts of anything Star Wars-related, and although I'll come to your Jedi faults later, your ignorance of what could be done to make air so much better astonishes me.

(5) I mean, to begin with, you've used upgrades (TIE Fighter>TIE Interceptor) when it's viable, more entertaining, and more real to have completely independent units (TIE Fighter is the Imp space superiority fighter while TIE Interceptor is the Imp 'speedy' fighter).

(6) And there isn't even a hint of medium or capital-class ships, which are just as essential as fighter-class ships in anything SW.

(7) As for Jedi... well, you've done it again. It would be a great idea to have both Knights and Masters (see the Snipers thread for all ideas surrounding this topic), but instead you've just made one continuous upgrade, and thrown in some bizarre "Elite Jedi Knight" thing to boot.

(8) Plus, there's no hint of any kind of special powers for any units, and everybody knows these are fun and exciting additions to any game. Things like force powers and fighter secondaries have been discussed in other threads, and would be great additions to GB2- yet your idea shows no signs of anything like this.

 

(9) Basically, the only way to sum this up is to say that as of now, although it shows signs of vague potential, it looks more like an expansion to GB1 than an actual new, improved GB2.

 

1. Have you ever tried to make a game with 8 civ's, all with totally unique units? I would bet money on it being impossible. Also, if you notice my ideas gives a mix of generic and unique units.

 

2. A few reasons. The abilites give the civs 'character' and also assist in further differentiating them (ie Imperil fighters built more quickly). How is this diffirent to what you are asking for?

 

3. Wrong. Each unit was carefully looked at and given appropriate attributes in order to balance them on a per-civ basis. Hence, although the AAT is a medium mech, is has greater firepower and armour than any other medium mechs due to the absence of an AT-AT or AT-TE equivalent in the TF ranks.

 

4. Again wrong. Republic air is very unique, and each air force has a number of powerful units for attacking field armies and bases. It is envisaged that both bombers and fighters will be more powerful than in GB1.

 

5. Whats the point? With the example of Tie Fighter --> Tie Interceptor, it adds realism in that the Interceptor was introduced after the fighter and was faster, plus it also means that made-up art doesnt have to be added.

 

6. I disagree. Where were the capital ships in the battle of hoth? The ground battle of endor? We are talking ground battles here, not space battles, and capital ships arent needed, especially with the more powerful bomber.

 

7. I actually had jedi for all armies. But then i thought 'whats the point of giving the wookiees and naboo two melee units?' and hence removed the jedi. This not only increases realism (working for the republic only) plus each civ gets their own unique melee unit, it doesnt affect gameplay at all. Plus there would still be the sith and jedi heroes such as Vader, Luke etc.

 

8. Care to show me a game where this has been done successfully? Personally i dont think its needed nor warrented, and it would only really increase micro-management.

 

9. I suggest you study it more closely, and take into the account at least some of what ive said here. Remember Corran, this is a TEMPLATE, its not written in stone, thats why i asked for the communities' feedback and ideas.

[eizo131]

I believe there were capitol ships in the battle of hoth. Otherwise who needs to protect the Ion canon? If it is in the game it should be used not as a unit, but an ability.

[Darth Windu]

eizo - the point i was trying to make was that capital ships are involved in 0% of the ground battles we see in Star Wars.

 

Also, as those with a word copy of my idea will note, the Empire's unique building, the Starfleet Uplink, gives them access to a rechargable Star Destroyer bombardment.

[Admiral Vostok]

First let me say "Cool! Windu is a Star Wars Purist too!"

 

Now, having read your Word Document, I can comment more fully. I'll start by rebutting your responses to Corran:

 

(1) Yes, it does sound hard. However, I'm confident by 2005 it will be possible, though I think Corran's desire for 14 fully unique civs is impossible.

 

(2) The problem is that I see each unit having a varying build time and cost dependent on it's abilities. So having the Empire get 5% cheaper air and 5% faster air build time is silly when everyone's times are different.

 

(3) Cally things "medium mechs" and so forth is almost as confining as SWGB1 was. I'd prefer a model similar to AoM, where they had "classes" of units, and within those classes the different units could be very unique. So there'd be a "mech" class, but within this class there is nothing called a "light mech" or "heavy mech", but a variety of different mechs. You then have a specific unit (not entire class) that is good vs all mechs.

 

(4 & 5) Air could be made much better by getting rid of the upgrading examples and making all valid types of air buildable at the same time. At the Battle of Endor, there were TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptors together. You can not recreate this if a TIE Interceptor totally replaces a TIE Fighter. Both have their tactical purposes.

 

(6) This is the only point where I agree with Windu and not Corran. Capital ships have no place on the battlefields, they hang around in orbit with little effect on the actual battles. Also, not all races have capital ships (Naboo, Gungans, Wookiees).

 

(7) Every civ should get Jedi. No questions asked.

 

(8) StarCraft, WarCraft 3, Red Alert 2, AoM, and many other not-so-well-known RTS's.

 

(9) I intend to write a similar document within the next few weeks detailing how SWGB2 can be a lot different than SWGB1, taking away most of the things that stopped SWGB1 from becoming a really fantastic game while at the same time not so removed as to not look like a sequel.

 

Here's some comments on a couple of things that stood out from your updated version you sent me:

Combining Naboo and Gungans? How about no.

Why does the Confederacy have an MTT? The Trade Federation is not part of the Confederacy! Where is my proof? Nute Gunray says he will not sign Dooku's treaty until he has Senator Amidala's head on his desk. So quite possibly the Trade Federation never actually becomes a formal part of the Confederacy. They are a seperatist, but not part of the Confederacy.

I do like the idea that each civ has a unique colour to their weapons, though it could also be good if instead of having generic weapon colours each individual unit has a laser colour like they do in the movie. So Clone Troopers shoot blue while Gunships shoot green.

I assume Rebels will get some non-canon mechs, otherwise they'd suck.

[eizo131]

I know I said this but I can't find it: Their should more sea based combat. And you should be able to build artificial islands. As for the civs. they should be made more unique, but making them totaly unique will be impossible. add the mandolorians if you can figure away to deal with the 10,000 (I think) year gap. And do away with those air cruisers. Use RoN as the engine.

[CorranSec]

1. Look. Nothing is 'impossible.' Not even 14 unique civs.

 

2. Character? Well, you're using a generic game (all civs are working from a base build/unit cost), so there can't be much character. However, in my generic game, TIEs would act like the TIEs we all know.

 

3. Each unit was put into a damned generic game! You're even using the terms 'medium mech,' as Vostok pointed out.

 

4. Very unique? There's still only three units, and they're a fighter, bomber and air transport! It is envisaged that there will be just as diverse air forces as there are ground forces in my GB2. Doesn't this sound far better than sticking to what we've got now?

 

5. Realism? Sure. Both Fighters and Interceptors existed at the same time, and they're both important parts of SW. And, as I've pointed out before, they're different, and could easily be given different purposes.

 

6. Where were the 'medium generic mechs' in the true Battle of Endor? Both ground and air/space are important in SW, and it's great to have both.

 

7. Jedi for all armies. Period. Have you noticed this is SW?

 

8. What Vostok said. Plus Battle Realms.

 

9. Well, I've given you feedback and ideas. Feedback: it's generally bad. Ideas: make it better.

Hop to it!

[Admiral Vostok]

I still think in 2 years time 14 totally unique civs, while it might be possible, is not feasible. In 2 years it should be programmatically possible, but the balancing required for 14 different civs would be monumental.

 

Inspired by Windu's document, I have began work on my own during my lunch hours and it's coming along quite nicely. It should be done in a week or two. I shall put any ideas I'm undecided about in this thread to reach a community decision.

[CorranSec]

Well, with top quality people, I'm sure they can be balanced. Let's just be positive!

 

I eagerly await your document, Vostok.....

(suprisingly enough, that wasn't actually sarcastic)

[Darth Windu]

People, i urge you to read thislly-

MY IDEA IS A TEMPLATE, IT IS NOT SET IN STONE!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, it is INCOMPLETE!!!!!!!!!

 

This is just a basic idea for SWGB2, and i agree it needs to be refined to altered. For this reason alone i posted my idea so that my fellow members could help me to refine it into a quality basis for SWGB2.

 

Corran - i have thought about your suggestion and i agree with you, air does need to be more unique. I will hence begin working on that.

 

Vostok - the term 'medium mech' is used very loosely. It is effectively the 'medium sized mech' of each individual civ's forces, it is not a unit class unto itself.

With Jedi i disagree. It is far more realistic to have each civ with a unique melee unit rather than using jedi as a generic unit. Wouldnt you prefer more UU's?

Also, with the gungans/naboo, there is a very good reason behind that. I was working on both civs and found that the Gungans had no aircraft, the Naboo had no ships, and each had half the number of mechs they should have had. Solution = merge the two. Belive me, it makes sense.

[Admiral Vostok]

Jedis - Me and most other people would prefer more Jedi over more UUs. Which sounds better:

All civs have access to Jedi

-or-

Some civs have access to Jedi. The Gungans have access to Ka-wazy Boomdergasser.

It might be more realistic but it makes for crap gameplay.

 

Naboo - Merging does not make sense. They are seperate armies, who allied in a time of war. Just like the Trade Federation and the Confederacy. They are quite possibly the two civs for whom we see the most buildings in the movies, but combining them will half the number of buildings. Also, they both have troopers and both have mechs.

[CorranSec]

Windu: Okay. Thanks. What about making everything more unique?

 

Ah, but here you reveal your generic roots. Why must everyone have a 'medium sized mech,' as well as a 'rifle trooper,' and so on? What about things like the Rebels having only small, fast mechs, which is really unique?

 

And Jedi won't exactly be generic units. I daresay each civ will have special qualities for their Jedi. But if they must be generic they must be- there's still the huge differences between Jedi and Sith, and with special abilities, they're all quite fun to use.

 

Oh. Great argument. Make them up! That's one of the key tenets of video games- you make stuff up if you don't see it in the original source (in this case, the movies) and you want it (well, I want gungan air, and I think you should too).

[Admiral Vostok]

I'd think perhaps Jedi/Sith should be the one generic thing for each civ. Sure, Jedi and Sith will be very different from each other as we've discussed. But otherwise I think Jedi work well the way they are. They are the same for everyone, but some civs have access to more Jedi techs than others. Since Jedi/Sith are something which is not unique to one particular civ, they work well as a generic thing.

[CorranSec]

What kind of Jedi/Sith techs were you thinking of? The GB1 ones can't really apply here, but there's plenty that you could do, like quicker Force recharges, less Force costs for powers, and all that.

I was just thinking a couple of movie-ish differences between civs- for example, the Rebel Jedi Knights would be speedier than normal, while the Empire Sith Masters would have big conversion bonuses.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I guess that would be okay. But Jedi should be basically generic.

[Darth Windu]

Corran, Vostok - do you two even know what you want? First it was 'there should be more unique units', now its 'we want generic units'!

 

It actually hurts realism to give every civ jedi/sith. As i said, when i was creating my SWGB2 template, i gave each civ generic jedi/sith, but then as i was looking at it i realised that every civ had 2 melee units. One unique, one jedi/sith and i thought to myself 'whats the point of generic jedi'? The answer was there is none.

 

PS: even if there is generic jedi, there should be no conversion at all. It hurts both gameplay and realism.

[Admiral Vostok]

It does not hurt gameplay at all, it makes gameplay better. It only hurts realism. Anyone would rather have a Jedi Padawan than a Ka-wazy Boomdergasser.

[Darth Windu]

vostok - it will have absolutely no impact on gameplay, and yet it will hurt realism quite a lot. Where was the gungan and federation jedi/sith at the battle of naboo? Were were the confederacy sith at the battle of geonosis? Instead the melee units would be-

 

Confederacy - Geonosian Warrior

Empire - Dewback Trooper

Republic - Jedi Knight

Rebels - Tauntaun Trooper

Naboo - Gungan Cavalry

Federation - Grapple Droid

Wookiees - Berserker

 

However there would also be various Jedi and Sith heroes to use in Senario's and missions/campaigns such as Dath Vader, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, Obi-Wan Kenobi etc

[CorranSec]

Windu, you must be joking. No impact on gameplay at all? Everything has an impact on gameplay, whether it be good or bad. The inclusion of Jedi/Sith gives everyone their favourite SW unit to play with (everyone loves Jedi, of course), gives each civ a melee death-dealer and an elite spellcaster, and adds yet another group of units to the overall game.

As for realism- if we just go off what units were present in the battles, we're going to be missing a hell of a lot. Gameplay, Entertainment, SWness and Fun>Realism, and Jedi fill all of the former categories, even if they deft the latter.

 

What is so bad about having those units as well? Here's one way it could be done:

 

Genosian Warrior- A unit which can walk on the ground with added armour or fly around with extra speed, and has a beam weapon good against enemy troopers.

Dewback Trooper- A fast cavalry unit which is useful for scouting, and decent against some mechanized units.

Jedi Knight- Everybody has one (or a Sith Knight), because everyone loves them, and they're great for gameplay.

Gungan Cavalry- This of course belongs to the Gungans, who are completely separate from the Naboo, but it can be incorporated anyway. It's a typical Gungan slinger atop a Kaadu, packing a flamethrower that deals out splash damage.

Grapple Droid- A medium-speed unit which is targeted on any enemy unit, and proceeds to engage it and hold it in place, while dealing damage to it. The unit cannot be freed unless the Grapple Droid is destroyed.

Tauntaun Trooper- Able to keep its footing everywhere, this Rebel unit suffers from no speed bonuses, no matter what the terrain. They are extremely speedy units, great for scouting, with a decent attack against fellow melee units.

Beserker- This Woookkkieee unit (so much for your spelling lessons, Vostok) can carve through enemy troopers with ease, but is rather slow and expensive.

 

Thus, we have a whole range of entirely unique units which all happen to be melee, along with everyone's favourite units, Jedi.

[Admiral Vostok]

Yeah, what Corran said. One of my friends who is not a Star Wars freak (though understandably has to appreciate Star Wars if he is my friend) picked up my Galactic Battlegrounds box one time and said "oh cool, you get to use Jedi!" This was the first thing he said. Taking away Jedi from some civs hurts gameplay quite badly.

 

Allowing some civs to have more than just one melee unit creates a bit more variety and unique-ness. Each civ should have a range of units, each properly balanced but still very unique.

 

Windu, I feel I should point out that if you really were a Star Wars Purist you'd know how wrong it is to put Naboo and Gungans in the same civ.

 

Oh and Corran, it's W-O-O-K-I-E-E

[CorranSec]

Why thankyou, Vostok. I've always wondered how to spell Wooookie- oh, stuff it.

And I agree with everything else that you said. Jedi play a huge part in the marketing and entertainment appeal, and to remove them would be a severe detriment to the game. Would anyone watch Episode III if it only had one Jedi character in it?

 

By the way, has anyone noticed how many Australians there are on these boards? There seem to be more of us that of any other nationality.....

[lukeiamyourdad]

Probably!!!!!!

There should be a poll...if you're australian click yes if not click no!

That would be great!

 

Back on topic- It seems to be one of the thing you two agree on(Vostok, Corran) and I can tell that those things are indeed very rare. Everyone wants jedi for all the civs...except windu who doesn't seem to have changed his mind about overpowering the republic(bringing back some bad memories)....

[Darth Windu]

Let me just start off by saying that i am NOT trying to overpower the Republic, i just dont see the point in everyone having a Jedi or Sith Knight.

 

Corran, Vostok - if every civ were to have the generic Jedi/Sith Knight, what would be the Republic melee UU?