Europe

[Wacky_Baccy]

Edit - I only just saw the above post - working on a reply now ^_^

Posted by Cjais

 

Just reviving this topic.

Good good

America is the world's only current superpower. It would be wise of Europe to unite (especially now that we've gotten 10 new countries into the fold) and contest America. EU seems to be the only current way of doing this, and I seriously think we should make it work, instead of bashing it completely without looking at what it's there for.

I couldn't agree more... It seems you and I think more alike than I imagined... I'm not sure if I should be glad about that, or run screaming into the night

The world needs another superpower - having only one leads to dictatorship, whether it's done by seemingly democratic methods or not.

Sadly true... A world with a politically, economically, and militarily united EU at the helm would be little better, or quite possibly worse, than the status quo... I believe that a counterweight to America would lead to greater consideration of different points of view - but we need to work together, not separately or opposingly, whether we like it or not... We could do a lot of good things for this world if we chose to...

Europe could do it, and even become greater than USA if the nations involved wills it.

But will they? That is the question... I truly hope they do, if only for their own sake, and not just to counter-balance America's current supremacy.

Posted by Squater

 

Becuase I dont like the idea that the whole Europe use the same "money" (cant come up with a better word) [...]

"Currency" would fit nicely

[...] it would take away the feeling of (at least a bit) independacy (sp?). Plus, I like our "Krona"

I know exactly how you feel... I like our Pound Sterling here in the UK, but after doing some research of my own, and looking into some of the pros and cons, (it would probably take me a year to look into them all x_x), I'm happily willing to do away with that particular symbol of nationalism (If you asked me to scrap our flag, however, I'd tell you to go jump, because I like it, and it has a lot of history attached to it ...Having said that, I do rather like the EU flag )

 

Anything that integrates the EU further (being fair not to call it "Europe", as it doesn't [yet] include all of Europe) and draws us closer together as peoples, is good in my book

[Wacky_Baccy]

(Sorry for the double-post; I felt the need to make my position on several things clearer with smilies (so sue me ), but my above post was at the limit... I'm sure you can all forgive me this one time )

Posted by Sir Brass

 

Just b/c we're a superpower doesn't mean we're a big, bad, fat country.

True. But the way you (more precisely, your government) treat other countries and their people has the greatest impact on how you will be perceived... Don't take advantage of people, help them out when you can, and they will respect you; screw them over, and you will instill a long and lasting hatred of yoursleves in them, which can never be good

I've heard insults against us americans hurled straight at my face, and even though I didn't flinch, it still hurt. I haven't insulted anybody's country or insulted them for their nationality, yet I'm treated like a little bug by some Europeans (this is when I went to Europe a few Springs ago) just b/c I'm american.

I didn't realise it was that bad... It seems that we are all as ignorant as each other

Perhaps we all need to look around us more often, and try to see what's really happening in our own back yards before jumping to any conclusions...

Also, we're forgetting a big reason why we Americans are responsible for our governement . . . our RIGHT TO REDRESS! If we find the current leaders corrupt and evil, then we have the right to remove them from power and elect new leaders almost immediately. The people themselves are the final check and balance for the government. If we forget this, then we are truly ignorant, and deserve whatever's coming b/c we ignored the fact that we have the right . . . NAY, the duty to remove leaders who have become corrupt &/or evil from office.

Interesting... I never knew that - thanks for telling us

I don't know where you got this illusion that you can hate a country w/o hating its people. Yeah, you can hate the country's government w/o hating the people, but you CAN NOT hate the country w/o hating the people who make up that country as well.

Agreed. My [and many others'] quarrel is with the US Administration and its practises, not the people.

Its impossible to do so, b/c the people are what comprise a country. A country with no people in it is not a country at all, just a piece of land.

Well said

Oh, and just to make clear a point, I've never heard anything American insults from the british I personally know. Now, I have several british friends, and we trade friendly insults about each other. Like Mark might say something and I'd mutter "D@mn brit." And he'd reply "F*ck'in yank." We'd both laugh and continue talking.

That's half the fun of being Britsh or American - poking fun at our [distant] cousins

Oh, and for those of you saying our 'war on terrorism' is arrogant, moronic, etc., lets see how YOU feel when thousands of innocents die in a terrorist attack on your country on the scale that we experienced September 11, 2001. Lets see how you feel when YOUR COUNTRY is attacked for nothing more than for just existing.

But that's not why they attacked you... I think Cjais or someone else already gave a reasonable explanation earlier in this thread, but I'll check later and possibly add something in here

Lets see how you feel when thousands of innocents die just b/c they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Lets see how you feel when after the event, the stager of the attacks still acts like your country is the ultimate evil, and that all people of your nationality should be killed, and that those who murder you will be heros! Lets see how YOU feel, THEN you can say that our response is arrogant, etc., etc.

You seem to forget that many people of other nationalities were killed in the attacks - it was by no means only American citizens that were murdered.

 

Waging a war against something intangible such as terrorism is pointless - you need to understand what gave reason for them to do what they did, and address that accordingly - you can't just bomb countries harbouring these terrorists and expect that to put them off or weaken their ability to operate - terrorism is effectively immune to that, unfortunately

[SettingShadow]

I think you Americans gotta stop acting like you are the only ones that gets insulted because of your nationalitty (sp?), Americans have insulted me for beeing European.

 

I think that critizing (sp?) other countries is a good way to get people to see that maybe it aint the super country they thought, but of course then you gotta accept that others critize your country. Face it, its a good way to learn

[Jah Warrior]

I look forward to the day that europe is one big country.

 

Once this is one done we can work towards the point where we have a world government, and ratehr than having nationalities we shall work towards bettering the entire human race.

 

IMO fostering old rivalries between countries can only be negated by all humans becoming one.

[Sir Brass]

But that's not why they attacked you... I think Cjais or someone else already gave a reasonable explanation earlier in this thread, but I'll check later and possibly add something in here

 

I know this, but it isn't about what it really was about, but what it was percieved to be about. Not since Pearl Harbor have we had an attack on OUR HOME TURF (except for domestic terrorism, which is something else entirely), and I don't think that anyone who isn't an American citizen or looking to become an American citizen, knows just how much it hurt us. Sure, you can sympathize with us, but still, watching a friend get beat up and BEING that friend who got beat up are two entirely different things. We were caught with our pants down, and not only that, but we were also hit directly in the sweet spot. Now that we've recovered some bit, WE ARE PISSED and WE ARE TAKING THEM DOWN! Now, Bush's statement about a war on terrorism is basically a political statement, said to make him look good, nothing more. What it really is, is us keeping our eyes open and not being on passive alert, but active alert, searching for terrorists that we knew existed, but did nothing about b/c they hadn't caused that big of a rucuss yet. However, now we're going after any terrorist organization we find out about, and any government which shelters and supports that organization. Iraq, hopefully, will be the first and only country to suffer our wrath, b/c that would mean that the other countries aren't supporting their terrorists anymore. I know you brits have known the kinds of feelings I'm talking about. Ask your grandparents about the bombing of London. How many of them wanted to go fight the Nazis after having witnessed what Hitler's little toys could do to their country. Its national pride and patriotism which drives this fire inside us, b/c we were given a harsh wake-up call that September morning, and we're heeding it 100%. All we ask is that the other 1st world countries support us in our actions. We don't exactly like having to always be the ones to go and be the world cops, we'd like help. We'd be overjoyed if some incident in another country was taken care of without us having to go in where we would've had to in the past.

 

Nothing would make us Americans happier than to see a united Europe share the throne of World Super Power with us, b/c frankly, its lonely at the top, and we're tired of being hated, though we'd rather be hated for intervening, than be beseeched by war torn countries who we could've saved had we intervened.

[starwarsman77]

Good points and arguments, sir brass, my fellow avatar brother, but this thread has been filled with them on both sides. Just do what i did and forget this thread completely. I just look at it and gag. Besides, you cant make them think any differently.

[Sir Brass]

I happen to see it a little differently, though. We may not be able to change all their minds, but we can at least give them something to think about, and maybe not be so anti-american (for those that were anti-american). A debate isn't always about winning, its about getting the other guy to see what the other side is about, and if he totally changes his view thanks to you, then kudos for you. If you don't, but still get him to think and possibly re-evaluate his position, then you've done just as well. That is my stance, anyways. And, besides that, I'm too d@mn stubborn to just leave this thread alone .

[Wacky_Baccy]

Posted by Sir Brass

I happen to see it a little differently, though. We may not be able to change all their minds, but we can at least give them something to think about, and maybe not be so anti-american (for those that were anti-american). A debate isn't always about winning, its about getting the other guy to see what the other side is about, and if he totally changes his view thanks to you, then kudos for you. If you don't, but still get him to think and possibly re-evaluate his position, then you've done just as well. That is my stance, anyways.

Precisely. I couldn't agree more

 

You may be pleased to know that by reading the more constructive American posts in this thread (that includes yours ), I've been prompted to re-think my position regarding the US as a whole... I now have a bit more sympathy for you than I had previously, and I feel that I understand you at least a little better, which can't be a bad thing

And, besides that, I'm too d@mn stubborn to just leave this thread alone

Same here

[thehomicidalegg]

Originally posted by Jah Warrior

I look forward to the day that europe is one big country.

 

Once this is one done we can work towards the point where we have a world government, and ratehr than having nationalities we shall work towards bettering the entire human race.

 

IMO fostering old rivalries between countries can only be negated by all humans becoming one.

 

I look forward to the day the whole world is one big country. When the entire human race can put behind its petty squabbles and follies to unite as one.

 

 

 

 

oh well, one can dream:(

[Sir Brass]

I look forward to the day the whole world is one big country.

 

I'm all for this as well as long as the cultural differences remain. If they disappear, then the uniqueness of each person will be reduced b/c we'll have one big common culture, and all the lessons we could learn from other cultures will disappear most likely. I'd rather us remain many seperate nations than see this happen.

[thehomicidalegg]

Diversity of culture would not necessarily be reduced in one nation or entity. This can be seen in many nations on earth today (beside the ones which found this as a reason for conflict). Different cultures can emerse harmonically if the factors are right.

 

Besides each person's uniqueness would not be affected by external layers of pretension. Commonly, people who found appeal in the different cultures as a factor in the uniqueness of individual, view them condescendingly as being quaint.

 

Everyone is different, culture is but another human fabrication to classify and divide amongst themselves.

 

And yes, people learn from others. People learn from any other individual beside him/herslf, learn from the past, from the history, from the accumulated knowledge that only human possesses.

 

Cultures evolve as mankind advances in time. THis has happened through out history and will happen in the future. However the cultures must not be forgotten,and must be remembered or recorded. One only advances towards the future from learning from the past.

[Darth Talliusc]

wow, this topic got really serious and depressing since i left. ah well, im back now

 

i agree with many points that you have made (talking to just about everybody who posted here) but on further reflection and reading i think the EU combining to form the second superpower of the world would be a bad thing. because then with only two powers in the world they will be in direct competition constantly and knowing human nature: violently. i dont think a "superpower" is good at all. not unless its absolutely EVERYBODY on earth united. and that wont happen until we discover more sentient species among the stars. if there is only one superpower among us then who knows. maybe that power will be content with being number 1 (though i doubt it would happen) and stop the pointless actions that i see so often from those who have "power" (not speaking about americans but specific individuals).

 

if the EU gets too big it may come to world war 3. i hope that wont happen but our world doesnt have a good track record with coexisting countries/alliances.

 

this thread shows quite well how good intended comments can be misconstrued (and i dont doubt that with less mature contenders this wouldve been a flame war long ago) and seen as insults. we have a tendency to be stupid, we're humans and thats to be expected (not to characterize anybody here as stupid or accuse them of acting stupid).

 

i try not to make others angry, especially online where things are harder to clear up and resolve. but it doesnt always work out that way. knowing this i try to be that much more lenient with what others say. i get insulted for being a "dumb canuck" every once in a while and i try to turn it into a laugh instead of starting a fight. i think the leaders of our worlds nations should have that ability as a requirement: the ability to take a jibe and laugh it off. are lives worth somebody insulting your honour? i can live with others not liking me, i cant live with a bullet in my head. do the right thing and treat others with a bit more patience.

 

 

thanks for keeping the thread mature and not degenerating into insults. if only the populace were as understanding as you individuals.

 

now for that canuck humour that was promised from before eh: why didnt the (insert nameless countrys name here) lock their doors when the canadians were invading? because hockey sticks can break windows too

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Sir Brass

Also, we're forgetting a big reason why we Americans are responsible for our governement . . . our RIGHT TO REDRESS!

 

Just don't think you're the only country in which the people can do this. Most of the European countries are able to remove the current leaders if they find that they're doing a poor job.

 

I don't know where you got this illusion that you can hate a country w/o hating its people. Yeah, you can hate the country's government w/o hating the people, but you CAN NOT hate the country w/o hating the people who make up that country as well. Its impossible to do so, b/c the people are what comprise a country. A country with no people in it is not a country at all, just a piece of land.

 

There's a fine distinction between a country and its individual people. This is about whether you can hold the individual Joe Average personally responsible for what his country has done. You cannot do that. His opinions may differ far and wide from that of his government, and even if they didn't, it would still not be him that did those things his government did.

 

Lets see how YOU feel, THEN you can say that our response is arrogant, etc., etc.

 

If you could only have an opinion on those things you have personally experienced, the world would be very dull indeed.

 

I agree with the rest.