Admiral Vostok Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Well the secret civs don't HAVE to be useful for campaigns but I think it makes them more attractive to the developers since they would be making Ewoks and Jawas for the campaigns anyway why not allow them to be playable. I think that's the reasoning Sithmaster follows as well. Besides I think Jawas would be more fun to play than LucasArts nerds, even if they don't look as wacky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 But all the Jawa's would have are troopers, Sandcrawlers, and maybe a bunch of patched up droids. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Vostok: Um, why do you think that Ewoks and Jawas will be in campaigns? And seeing as that the actual secret civs would be quite crazy and unbalanced, you would use different versions in campaigns anyway (something like the Ewoks and Jawas in the current game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 8, 2003 Author Share Posted February 8, 2003 Jawas may be fun but not crazy enough for a crazy secret civ. I understand that Vostok is the forum purist so he doesn't really want a group of LA nerdz because none of them were in the movies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Because scenerios ain't random maps, and most if not all are pointless (like an Ewok battle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 8, 2003 Author Share Posted February 8, 2003 I think we should have comp ewoks to fight against in SP. It would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I agree, but it would be a nightmare to program the ai's, and there wil be a very high possiblity for bugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 10, 2003 Author Share Posted February 10, 2003 Of course. But I'm sure they'll find a way to fix those bugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 No, no, no! The bugs come from programming overlooks which stem from the fact that they have to make a completely different default ai for each civ, not to mention each difficulty or each game type. That's a lot of programming, and that's why there probably will be bugs galore, and imbalances too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I'm pretty sure I'm with Sith on the computer-controlled secret civs issue. Although I acknowledge that it would be fun, and as a gamer I would love it, we also need to consider the difficulties the developers would face. But this is also yet another reason why secret civs should be allowed in multiplayer. Otherwise, there's no way you'd ever be able to fight against the secret civs, or be allied with them, or do anything with them apart from be them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I see what you're getting at. Making Ewoks playable by anyone other than the player in single player would require the Ewoks to have their own AI written. Well I think it would be worth it. The secret civs aren't little add-ons a the last minute, I imagine them to be like the secret characters in Super Smash Brothers for N64. Basically after you unlocked them they were just another character. The difference I see between Secret Civs and Secret Characters is that the Secret Characters are properly balanced with the normal characters, whereas the Secret Civs don't need to be balanced, though they should be made under-powered on purpose. So the AI writing shouldn't be seen as just an extra add-on, it is a proper part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Corran, they're in the editor. There will be a basic AI written for them for editor use, but it can't handle the heavy-duty stuff in RM. In multi, once again, there's the editor. In RM/DM/Turbo, they have to be banned, but scenerios are still fair game, since the designer is not at fault for unbalanced scenerios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 But what if the good people at LucasArts do take the time to fully develop it as a secret civ, so it is balanced enough for Multiplayer games? I suppose it all depends on what else they do, for example if they have a whole heap of civs to do the balancing for I'd be okay with letting Ewoks be only a single player thing. But if they only have the eight existing civs, it would probably be worth giving the secret civs proper playability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Sith: Yes, but what's the point of having them in the editor when it's quite possible to let them be used in multi RM/DM/whatevers? We've been over this before. Considering that the secret civs aren't meant to be balanced (Vostok, sorry, but I think they should be just-for-fun and unbalanced), there's nothing wrong with being allowed to use them in all kinds of standard games (single and multi-player). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I think they don't need to be balanced either, but if Sith insists they need balance to be allowed in RM games then I say why not balance them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Its not just balance. They are supposed to be dramatically different i.e. have none of the current unit "sets", which is also kinda bad. Just a note on balancing: SP players tend to prescibe balancing like a fast-acting miracle drug (i.e. Windu and the gunship). Not every thing can be balanced, and things that seem balanced apon release may end up being unbalanced in the hands of the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 I thought the secret civs were for SWGB2, which probably won't have unit "sets", each civ will have pretty much unique units from each other. Secret civs like Ewoks would work easily into this I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Sith: Of course, they are dramatically different. Of course, it's not about balance at all. Nothing in GB2 will have the current unit "sets," as Vostok said... so I think your argument is kinda, um, gone. Something I need to get through to you, Sith: Not everything has to be balanced, secret civs foremost among these! Vostok: Why not balance them? Because there's no reason to, and that would detract from their fun. The whole 'balanced secrets' is far more suited to something like Super Smash Bros Melee than GB2, and I've always been designing these with unbalance in mind. Just-for-fun, crazy, unbalancd, and so on. That's what the secret civs are all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 I know they're better unbalanced, Corran! In fact they would be stupid balanced, because then you could have Ewoks taking out AT-ATs. When I said balancing, I meant so there aren't any exploitable loopholes like what Sith is afraid of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 How can it be a 'loophole' or 'exploitable' if they're designed to be unbalanced? I just can't seem to understand what the big issue is. They're not meant to be balanced! If a gamer finds a loophole which enables a certain Ewok group to take down an AT-AT, well, hooray for the gamer! But anyway, I don't think such things will happen- they will be unbalanced with a purpose, not just thrown in with a mishmash of stats and no organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 17, 2003 Author Share Posted February 17, 2003 actually...it is possible for ewoks to beat an AT-AT. since AT-ATs are weak vs melee units, ewoks with spears can take down an AT-AT...but not without difficulty. Secret civs will be unbalanced but yet well organized: -Ewoks slinger: 10hp 1 attack 0 armor but... ewok catapult: 40 hp 4 attack 1 armor(it's still wood.....) and gliders: 2 hp 6 attack 0 armor that way it's not disorganized like giving a slinger 60 hp and a catapult 10 hp.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Then all you'd have to do is send in troopers an they're history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Luke's dad: Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I was thinking of. But could we make them a little better? After all, we want it to be unbalanced crazy fun, but not on the lines of "a balanced civ's worker can destroy a starting ewok base". SWPhreak: That's kind-of the point. But as I said to Luke, I don't want them to die instantly. They could be strangely resistant to blasters, or be excellent against ground mechs (the Empire's specifically), or something to make them fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swphreak Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 yea...... Maybe the Ewoks coud get a bouns? Like a build 1 unit, get 1 free? I'd say they have a lil more of a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 19, 2003 Author Share Posted February 19, 2003 Yeah that should solve everything about the ewok troopers of course. They could also cost a ridiculously low amount of ressources to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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