LiMP RABBiT Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Im no Star Wars expert but I was wondering, why do all Jedis who die (Yoda and Obi-wan) vanish when Qui-gon stays around to be burned after he is dead? Is there some deep and meeningful reason or is Lucas a bit senial (no offense).
Mex Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 I think it is because Yoda and Obi wanted to die. And Qui-Gon did not want to die.
BCanr2d2 Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 First of all, it's senile.... Second of all, there are two theories in how the Jedi use and believe in the Force. QJG believes in the Living Force, as he mentions to Obi-Wan at the beginning of TPM. It's more of sensing the ebbs and flows of everything around you, and reacting to it.... This is better illustrated in the TPM novelisation With Yoda and Obi-Wan, they follow what is called the Unifying Force theory. This is more of using foresight to decide the course of action, seeing the long term effects of using the Force. Obi-Wan saw that not fighting, was the better course of action, rather than fighting his former padawan. He returned himself back into the force, and guided Luke through out the rest of the SW trilogy........
Katarn07 Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 How else do you account for Qui-Gon's voice in AotC? When Yoda's meditating about the Tusken slaughter, you hear Qui-Gon, "Anakin! Anakin!"
Tie Guy Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 I think it is because Ob-Wan and Yoda, before they died, gave themselves up to the Force completely. Alternately, Qui-Gon was killed in battle, and likewise with Vader, so they didn't just fade into the Force like Ob-Wan and Yoda did.
Katarn07 Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Interesting. I never heard that unifying\ living theory either.
LiMP RABBiT Posted January 11, 2003 Author Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy Alternately, Qui-Gon was killed in battle, and likewise with Vader, so they didn't just fade into the Force like Ob-Wan and Yoda did. But remeber Obi-wan did die in battle but he vanished
ZBomber Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Another thing is that Qui-Gon could have survived. Obi could use Force Heal on him, couldn't he?
Katarn07 Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 He gave himself up to die, though, as did Yoda. Qui-Gon was caught by surprise.
LiMP RABBiT Posted January 11, 2003 Author Posted January 11, 2003 I imagine that some wounds, such as lightsaber stabs to the abdomen, cannot be healed, even with the force.
Tie Guy Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by LiMP RABBiT But remeber Obi-wan did die in battle but he vanished Wrong. Look closely, he disappears before he is slashed.
Jedi_Monk Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Wrong. Look closely, he disappears before he is slashed. That's because, due to the limitations in the creation of visual effects back then, the way they achieved Obi-Wan's death was by hanging his cloak on a collapsible coat tree. I don't think we can use that as evidence that Obi-Wan was supposed to have disappeared before Vader struck him down. Furthermore, if it's about reconciling yourself to death... remember that Qui-Gon was actually alive while Obi-Wan was fighting Maul. His death wasn't instantaneous, and he had plenty of time to reconcile himself with the fact that he was about to die. I don't think we have enough information, yet, to say anything definite about why some Jedi vanish and others don't. I think Lucas will probably explain it in SW3.
Tie Guy Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk That's because, due to the limitations in the creation of visual effects back then, the way they achieved Obi-Wan's death was by hanging his cloak on a collapsible coat tree. I don't think we can use that as evidence that Obi-Wan was supposed to have disappeared before Vader struck him down. Furthermore, if it's about reconciling yourself to death... remember that Qui-Gon was actually alive while Obi-Wan was fighting Maul. His death wasn't instantaneous, and he had plenty of time to reconcile himself with the fact that he was about to die. I don't think we have enough information, yet, to say anything definite about why some Jedi vanish and others don't. I think Lucas will probably explain it in SW3. It doesn't matter if it was a special effect thing. It was in the movie that way therefore it is the absolute truth and reality as far Star Wars goes. Besides, you see Obi-Wan put his lightsaber and accept his death, its clear thats what he's doing. And i think it was too late for Gui-Gon to give himself up to the Force. I mean, anyone can accept their death when they are just about to die, it's alot different when you are still alive and well.
ZBomber Posted January 11, 2003 Posted January 11, 2003 Originally posted by Tie Guy It doesn't matter if it was a special effect thing. It was in the movie that way therefore it is the absolute truth and reality as far Star Wars goes. Besides, you see Obi-Wan put his lightsaber and accept his death, its clear thats what he's doing. And i think it was too late for Gui-Gon to give himself up to the Force. I mean, anyone can accept their death when they are just about to die, it's alot different when you are still alive and well. Pretty good point.
boinga1 Posted January 12, 2003 Posted January 12, 2003 I think it has something to do with the idea of resisting death, for intsance qui-gon didn't want to die, wanted to train ani, but obi and yoda were accepting of death and prepared to die. But then why didn't Vadar dissappear...?
Purple_Tentacle Posted January 12, 2003 Posted January 12, 2003 vader / anakin appears as a ghost at the end of RotJ and we hear qui-gon's voice cry out in ep.2 , so wether you are ' killed ' or choose to die doesnt matter because you end up in the same place anyways, if you have a choice in the matter then i guess you can choose to disappear.
LiMP RABBiT Posted January 12, 2003 Author Posted January 12, 2003 Vader may have disapeared. He goes limp infront of luke but doesn't vanish, yet he may have just passed out from pain or something. And then, when his suit was back on, then he may have died but we couldnt see because of the suit..... It could have happened..... Come on, use your imagination.
Jedi_Monk Posted January 12, 2003 Posted January 12, 2003 It was in the movie that way therefore it is the absolute truth and reality as far Star Wars goes. When you're dealing with technical limitations like this, it doesn't necessarily matter what's on celluloid, what matters is what Lucas intended to portray. Here's an excerpt from the A New Hope script: Vader brings his sword down, cutting old Ben in half. Ben's cloak falls to the floor in two parts, but Ben is not in it. So according to the script, Vader did chop Obi-Wan in half, and that's when he vanished.
Altus_Thrawn Posted January 12, 2003 Posted January 12, 2003 interesting. I have always just thought that if a jedi accepts the death he vanishes, if not, he doesnt. qui-gon probably wanted to survive, but obi chose to die.
Tie Guy Posted January 12, 2003 Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk When you're dealing with technical limitations like this, it doesn't necessarily matter what's on celluloid, what matters is what Lucas intended to portray. Here's an excerpt from the A New Hope script: No, the movies are absolute cannon, they have to be. How are we going to know what Lucas intended? We don't, but it doesn't matter because we have something better, what he did. That quote doesn't prove anything, because it never says clearly whether Obi-Wan was there before or after Vader swung. And it's not even completely accurate in the first place, because Vader uses a horizontal cut to "kill" Obi-Wan, not a vertical one like the quote says.
Guest Jed Posted January 13, 2003 Posted January 13, 2003 It's an interesting topic, and the real answer may never be known, but it's most easily answered by saying that Obi and Yoda gave themselves up to the force. But Vader didn't die in combat...he practically gave himself up, and they burned him...or his armor... *is confuzzled*
Jedi_Monk Posted January 13, 2003 Posted January 13, 2003 How are we going to know what Lucas intended? Obviously, we know by reading the script and by reading or listening to interviews. And "bring his sword down" is a generic term for "delivering the deathblow". And what do you think? That Obi-Wan suddenly died of old age before Vader struck him down? That he somehow killed himself? Maybe he'd taken a time-release suicide pill! It makes no sense! That, and Vader is always refered to as killing Obi-Wan.
boinga1 Posted January 13, 2003 Posted January 13, 2003 so tie guy, the cloak was just floating by itself? Don't think they can do that.
LiMP RABBiT Posted January 13, 2003 Author Posted January 13, 2003 Maybe, he vanished because he accepted his death before the final blow. So he didn't vanish before he died, but as he had accepted his fate, when he was killed he did vanish.
Tie Guy Posted January 13, 2003 Posted January 13, 2003 Originally posted by Jedi_Monk And "bring his sword down" is a generic term for "delivering the deathblow". See, i just proved my point. What is written is not always what is intended, or what is done. You say that is implied a deathblow, but you don't know. You can't know whether George intended a downward strike or a horizontal slash, so all we have to go by is the movies. And what do you think? That Obi-Wan suddenly died of old age before Vader struck him down? That he somehow killed himself? Maybe he'd taken a time-release suicide pill! It makes no sense! That, and Vader is always refered to as killing Obi-Wan. Yes, i mean to say that Obi-Wan killed himself. Well, not really, more like he gave himself up to the Force. You don't see his two body pieces on the floor then the robe flattens, it is cleary empty by the time Vader strikes the blow. Special effects don't matter, and the script offers nothing decisive. How else can you know what happened than by exactly what is in the movie? And you say Vader is always referred to as killing Obi-Wan. By whom, the fans? Please, they don't know any more than you or I do. But putting that crazy statement aside, Vader did kill Obi-Wan. Vader directly caused Obi-Wan to die no matter what way you look at it. So your statement, ludicous and ubased as it was, supports my side of the argument just as well as yours.
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