C'jais Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Well, thinking long term here. We'll have to leave earth eventually. The sun isn't going to last forever. Well, that's thinking long term indeed! I'm thinking in the more immediate future than that. We're already getting too many people on the planet, and while the population growth will be less enourmous than it is right now, there's no indication that we'll ever stop getting more and more people. Resources are also a concern. Unless we found that miraculous cure for all the energy problems, we're going to have a power shortage. All in all, when too many people are crammed together with inadequate supplies, violence is bound to erupt sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daring dueler Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 i dont think anyone was behind it at all i think it was a freak acident-now they are saying people warned of it and all that but think about all the sept. 11 rumors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 My girlfriend's dad and myself both agreed mere minutes after learning of the disaster thought that we had heard of the piece of foam, not ice, that fell and struck the left wing of the orbiter. We also thought, well, there should have already been a contingency plan to get the astronauts out of the shuttle to personally inspect the damage of the shuttle. They had 16 days to work with, surely they could have taken 5-10 hours out of the day to inspect the damage and relayed their findings to NASA whether through voice communications or even email for that matter. NASA really botched this mission big time. if I was in charge of the Mission and learned that there was damage to the shuttle, I would have grounded it before it even entered space. But because of NASA's overconfidence and stupidity, 7 people are dead, and they are rightfully taking the heat, which they should. I guess i should also note that it would be impossible for any surface to air missle projectiles to reach the orbiter, so any land-based terrorist attack would be futile. The Personal Stinger missle according to classified specs, can only reach 5-10 miles, where as the shuttle was over 200,000 feet (207,??? in the air) or almost 40 miles into the air. So firing the missile at it would be a wasted missile and waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pnut_Man Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 It's a true pity for NASA, the guys down there must feel so guilty, it's a shame. Unforunately it seems that our explorations into Space will be ultimately delayed, I can only hope that we send another shuttle up in the next 3 years. Damn freaking wars, they waste so much money so that lives can be destroyed; if only the world could come together and fund NASA so that colonies in Space could be a possibility.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCanr2d2 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I am agreement with some of you here, that it has taken less time than the Shuttle was in space for them to almost make quite a clear statement about what happened. As for the foam piece, remember that it surrounds an extremely cold tank, which makes the piece of foam most likely to be full of water, or frozen into ice, not just simply some foam.. Andy, it only takes 8 1/2 minutes, or 510 seconds for the Shuttle to be at orbiting height, it is one hell of a quick ride, tell me you could've made a decision in the 2 or 3 minutes that they had, to jettison the external tank, and external rockets, along with somehow manouvering the shuttle - in air it is only a glider, THEN not to have it too high in the atmosphere to have the problem of heat in the landing. I think you ask way too much of NASA to be able to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 7, 2003 Author Share Posted February 7, 2003 It should be noted that NASA doesn't think that the foam caused the accident. They're estimating that the piece of foam would only weighed 2.5 pounds. There's no way a 2.5 pound peice of foam could have cause that much damage (if any). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 But take 2 or 3 pounds accelerate it to roughly 500-1,000MPH, and aim it at your car, and see what damage it does. You have to realize that once the orbiter started taking off the mere inertia or force driving the Shuttle would cause the some proportion of force to throw the foam into the wing, which NASA themselves agreed caused a roughly 7" long hole in the left wing, which is more than enough to cause critical problems to teh orbiter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 7, 2003 Author Share Posted February 7, 2003 I'm not sure I agree with your math. This foam came off the shuttle, it wasn't falling from the sky. Yes, the shuttle is accurating like a bat out of hell, but I'm not sure that a piece of foam could come off the shuttle and hit at a speed to cause mission critical damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Originally posted by razorace but I'm not sure that a piece of foam could come off the shuttle and hit at a speed to cause mission critical damage. A gram of paint is enough to rip through the hull of your ship in space. A bucket of paint is enough to tear the ship apart in half at that speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCanr2d2 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 It's a case of the Shuttle hitting the foam, not the other way round, think of that way. It's the same kind of logic that people tell you when you drop a coin from a height, if it hits something, it will do a lot of damage to whatever gets in the way. It will also leave a mark in the ground, or concrete that it lands on too. Grab a 1 kg weight, and then think about how something like that being hit by something going at about Mach 1 or so, then tell me it wouldn't do any damage. The tiles aren't indestructible, they are extremely heat resistant, which would tend to make me think they are of a ceramic base, which explains the ease in how they might've chipped/broken/moved. Perhaps at the end of this, what may happen is that the leading edges of the wings will have some form of protection. The Shuttle will not be out of action for the same kind of 32 month time delay that happened after Challenger. Challenger was a case of faulty equipment, not an accident. They had to go through every single supplier and audit their production so that an act of shoddy design and manufacture wouldn't cause such an accident.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echuu Shen-Jon Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I don't care if it was either terrorists, human mistake or system faliure. It was just terrible. Think of the familys, who have to live on, without their father, uncle etc...I feel for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 7, 2003 Author Share Posted February 7, 2003 I'll remind everyone that the foam had the momentum of the shuttle when it detached. It's not like it was traveling at terminal velocity straight down. The math is very complicated and I can't say what the foam impact speed would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 But in all seriousness, {MGS}Echuu, it is because of severe human error that the families are having to deal with this great loss. If NASA had implemented an in-orbit repair procedure, there is a good chance that columbia would have landed in one piece. So, as you can see the cause and effect theory taking place. The cause: The foam hit the wing. The Effect: All 7 members of the space shuttle Columbia died in-flight. Well razorace, if it was going the speed of the shuttle, which i have heard numerous times as well, it was going approximately 1,100mph into the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 7, 2003 Author Share Posted February 7, 2003 yeah, in the SAME direction as the shuttle, the impact speed would be far, far less. NASA doesn't think that the foam cause the accident. I don't think it did either. It's just the scrapgoat of the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 I remember hearing just mere hours after the explosion, NASA was saying that body parts had been found. Originally posted by Yahoo! News _Forensics experts say they are confident remains of Columbia crew members can be genetically identified. Johnson Space Center spokeswoman says remains of some astronauts have been found in rural east Texas. Originally posted by CNN.com WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Photographs taken by an Air Force tracking camera shortly before the space shuttle Columbia disintegrated show serious structural damage to the shuttle's left wing, an aviation magazine reported Friday. The images, captured about a minute before the shuttle broke apart, show a jagged edge on the left wing structure near where the wing begins to intersect with the fuselage, according to a report in Aviation Week & Space Technology. Razor, one thing we have to remember though is that once the foam was detached from the shuttle, for a brief second it is suspended in air, and within that second, the shuttle is still moving at 1,100mph+, which then strikes the foam piece, which when weighing 2lbs, can cause some serious damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 7, 2003 Author Share Posted February 7, 2003 You're still not understanding the momentum issue. The foam doesn't just stop instantanously when it deattached from the fuel tank. Yes, the air resistance slows it down, but the impact speed isn't easy to guessimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 But anything even past 100MPH, which is probably underestimating would be enough fpr a 2.7 lbs piece of insulation foam(with probably some ice formed on it) to do some damage. And apparently,we all know that it was enough damage to place those 7 astronauts into their graves. But one thing that confuses me is why NASA didn't implement a repair procedure. Oh wait, I know, they only wait till they kill of some of their own before they should do it. Perhaps one day they will actually learn to think ahead of time before making yet ANOTHER crucial mistake or wrong assumption. Perhaps this disaster will get NASA to get on top of the ball for once, and actually implement safety procedures. Shuttle repair procedure should be a basic procedure, not some idea to be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 8, 2003 Author Share Posted February 8, 2003 I think the reason why is because they didn't think it was an issue. First off, minor tile loss was expected and non-mission critical. The shuttles always came back with some tile lose. Second, all the tiles are custom made. You can't just bring up some spare tiles. Third, there's not enough time. The shuttle has a limited amount of fuel, oxygen, etc. Even if they had found major damage, they wouldn't have been able to do much. They didn't have the equipment, time, or fuel to either repair the damage or cut and run to the ISS. Finally, there's the money issue. We could come up with a safer way to do our space exploration but it would take many more times NASA's current budget. Yes, losing the astronauts and a 2 billion dollar shuttle was bad, but we accepted those risks when we cut NASA's funding dramatically since the Apollo program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Space Shuttle repair should already have been a primary procedure when space travel came to be. NASA and anyone with a basic understanding of thermal energy and space shuttles knows that even the slightest crack at speeds of MACH 18 and 3000 centigrade is not good. Once that heats get up into the aluminum shielding, the astronauts are basically chicken in the oven as they are heated up to that fatal 3000 centigrade. Third, there's not enough time. The shuttle has a limited amount of fuel, oxygen, etc. Even if they had found major damage, they wouldn't have been able to do much. They didn't have the equipment, time, or fuel to either repair the damage or cut and run to the ISS All they would have to do is stop the shuttle. Then get a couple people out in the suits, and at least inspect the damage so if needed, another shuttle could come up with a repair crew. Because right now, there is more money being spent on the recovery then would be on any procedure that even I could conjure up. And if losing the Challenger, and the 3 astronauts in Apollo 1 was bad enough, NASA still doesn't have more safety precautions? Hell, Apollo 1 was an accident waiting to happen with its suicide door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 9, 2003 Author Share Posted February 9, 2003 They didn't have the money to DO that. Having a emergency shuttle preped and ready to go for every shuttle mission would have cost billions in additon to the money spent on all those extra spacewalks. Our political representives and NASA decided that it wasn't worth it. They made their bed; now they have to lay in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Well, If NASA would have quit screwing up with their heads up their asses, they would have seen all these problems, and the Government would still be helping in funding NASA. The gov't will only fund project that work, and with NASA repuation being less than reputable, they kind of screwed themselves over for a long time or until they can get themselves onto the positive side of the spectrum, like discovering intelligent life outside of Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 9, 2003 Author Share Posted February 9, 2003 Nah, I don't think NASA did anything wrong. They just quit having the needed leadership and support from the Prez and Congress. If the Prez said TODAY that we'd be landing on Mars in a decade, NASA could do it (with the financial/political support). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy867 Posted February 9, 2003 Share Posted February 9, 2003 Didn't do anything. Let's recall these dates: 1995: Independent specialists, hired by NASA, warn NASA that a piece of foam striking the shuttle and cracking even tearing away the ceramic heat tiles would be sufficient enough to cause probems. Jan 16th, 2003: During launch, a piece of foam(possibly coated externally with ice) strikes the left wing. Several NASAengineers and specialists confront the mission leaders and other experts that the incident could prove critical in the re-entry of the orbiter. Feb 1st, 2003: At approximately 9:00am EST, NASA loses contact with the shuttle, and amateur home videos show the shuttle breaking up into many pieces, while specialized Air Force Tracking cameras take photos of the re-entry, which show a jagged/damaged section of the left wing. "The Columbia is lost." So, because NASA ignored many warnings over time, they DID do something. They did many things wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 10, 2003 Author Share Posted February 10, 2003 Hindsight is 20/20. There's ALWAYS some group saying that such and such is a danger. If we pissed our pants everytime a "danger flag" is raised, we'd never get anything done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Originally posted by Andy867 And apparently,we all know that it was enough damage to place those 7 astronauts into their graves. Actually, making that statement would be making a blanket assumption. The dislodged foam is definately a possibility (and looks very probable), but there is still much left to examine and several hypotheses left to test. It could easily have been micro-meteorites or tiny space debris. Many contend that it is only a matter of time before a spacecraft encounters some nut or bolt that is orbiting the earth. These bits of debris, themselves, could be traveling at 8 km/sec. Factor in the orbital velocity of the spacecraft, and depending on the bearing of both.... well, bullets on Earth aren't that fast. Originally posted by Andy867 But one thing that confuses me is why NASA didn't implement a repair procedure. There was no way to do so. If one has a flat tire, the driver stops his vehicle and uses the spare. This analogy doesn't work for the shuttle crew for two reasons: 1) they could not possibly carry enough spare tiles. It would require that they have one spare for each in use, since they are that unique; 2) The crew did not have that kind of EVA capability and were probably not trained in EVA since that was not in the mission profile. Originally posted by Andy867 Oh wait, I know, they only wait till they kill of some of their own before they should do it. Perhaps one day they will actually learn to think ahead of time before making yet ANOTHER crucial mistake or wrong assumption. That is a completely ignorant statement. I use the word ignorant because you obviously know little of how NASA works. They are the original thinkers when it comes to contingency planning. So, obviously they "think ahead." I will, however, conceed that it may be time for the Space Program to rethink it's vehicle design. Also, to even suggest that the folks at NASA would be careless with lives is a very calleous and thoughtless statement. NASA is a very tight-knit family. Most of the mission control people consider the mission specialists their friends. I cannot imagine what level of professionalism allowed them to continue calmly at their jobs as their friends perished. Originally posted by Andy867 Perhaps this disaster will get NASA to get on top of the ball for once, and actually implement safety procedures. NASA has been more "on top of the ball" than any other government agency in US History. I wish their level of efficiency existed elswhere. Safety procedures? Going into space is inherently risky. These astronauts knew this. The use a hydrogen bomb to get there for Pete's sake! Originally posted by Andy867 Shuttle repair procedure should be a basic procedure, not some idea to be considered. You're obviously a smart guy.... write a proposal and submit it. Originally posted by Andy867 Well, If NASA would have quit screwing up with their heads up their asses, they would have seen all these problems, and the Government would still be helping in funding NASA. The gov't will only fund project that work, and with NASA repuation being less than reputable,.... NASA has always had, and still has, a reputation of being professional and of planning missions to the very second with contingencies for contingencies. I'm not surprised, however, that those that are largely ignorant are willing to step out into the limelight and nay-say as a highly successful organization experiences a tragic loss. You should be ashamed of yourself. SkinWalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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