How could each civ be made more unique?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Republic-Then the rebs should also be a rush oriented civ. The Rep indeed can mass up a lot of units but it shouldn't happen in early games or they'll be vastly overpowered.

Trade Fed and/or Confed should have the fastest producing troopers(saying that the confed an trade fed have the same type of battle droid).

 

Gungans-It useful in early games but I don't see them overpowered. It also depends on which sea map you're playing. Even with that, they won't own anything. A few workers can't build enough turrets to defend an island correctly.

[Admiral Vostok]

I don't think the Rebels should be rush-oriented. These are the fighting styles I think best reflect the different civs:

 

Confederacy: They are pretty well rounded, not really excelling in any one tactic but being versatile enough to deal with whatever is thrown at them.

 

Empire: Blitzkrieg. They establish a strong base then make a full-on assault/seige. The attack may come in waves.

 

Republic: Highly tactical mobile force. They specialise in striking quickly before the enemy is prepared to repel their attacks. They rarely attack in waves, hoping the inital onslaught will be enough.

 

Gungans: Very defensive minded. Their fambaa shields force the enemy to divide, making them easier targets. Divide and conquer.

 

Rebel Alliance: Strike and fade. They do not fare well in extended conflicts. They prefer to throw all they have at an enemy if being attacked, or if they are attacking it is usually done in waves or stages, spearheaded by their elite units.

 

Royal Naboo: A bit of a hard one, but I'd say they prefer using small groups of elite, well equipped troops than relying on sheer weight of numbers (which they don't have).

 

Trade Federation: Very systematic. They attack in stages or waves, combining the overwhelming number of weak battle droids with harder hitting elite units like Droidekas and AATs. They are methodical and very formal in their approaches.

 

So how can we best reflect these traits in the gameplay?

[CorranSec]

Republic: Rushers? No way. They're the dominant civ in the galaxy. They have huge military production facilities, but it's taken them at least a hundred years to come up with the technology. By no means are they rushers. They're near the empire in that they have heavily defended bases, but they attack quickly with masses of clones, while the empire......

 

Empire: attacks with slow-moving yet devastating heavy forces. I mean, think about it- the true symbol of Imperial military might is either the AT-AT or the Star Destroyer, and they're both slow and devastating.

 

Confederacy: They have a very well-rounded mech force, with all other units (even troopers) generally becoming secondary units, as their variety of mechs can handle most everything.

 

Gungans: Tend to use sea units a lot, but when these can't be used (ie enemies are inland) they have powerful troopers and plenty of military-trained beasties.

 

Rebels: A terrorist movement with terrorist tactics. Speedy ground units, with no real heavy artillery, but some quite powerful fighter-class air units.

 

Royal Naboo: Use small numbers of expensive, elite troopers in light mechs instead of mighty forces. They excel at precision strikes at enemies which can cripple their operations.

 

Trade Federation: Large amounts of cannon-fodder battle droids, followed by powerful mechanized units. Together, although predictable, these forces can easily demolish most opposition.

 

There are others, of course, but I'm just dealing with the ones that have been brought up.

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran, this is not Age of Star Wars, it is Galactic Battlegrounds. Each game does not represent your civilisations evolution through the ages, it represents their building a base and attacking. So while the Republic was only strong at the very end of it's evolution, in a single battle they are strong at the start. They are a rush civ, as shown in Attack of the Clones. Sure, it might have taken thousands of years before they got clones, but we're only concerning ourself with one battle, like the battle of Geonosis, where they rush in before the Confederacy has time to react.

[CorranSec]

I'm not suggesting that you have to play for thousands of years. I'm suggesting that the Republic shouldn't have godly, mind-bogglingly fast cloning technologies at the very beginning of a Random Map game. I'm trying to reflect the fact that cloning techs take a while by only making them available after a bunch of other techs have been researched.

They are not a rush civ. They carefully plan their battles, and then surprise their enemies. Those clones and gunships at the Battle of Geonosis had to be organised, and if the Reps were a rush civ, they would have attacked even before the three main characters were captured. But, as it is, once they organised their forces they made a swift strike and claimed their prize.

Your idea of 'rush in' doesn't fit the game style we're talking about. The enemy still had a large army for the Clones to combat, and in your GB2 rushing civ, the enemy wouldn't have an army, so the Clones could demolish everything quite easily. But they did move swiftly, and that's what I'm trying to reflect.

[Darth Windu]

Here is how i see the individual civs-

Empire - slow, heavy armoured ground assaults

Republic - fast combined air and ground assaults

Rebels - infantry / air nuisance raids with mobile buildings

Naboo - heavy ground defence with fast moving strike forces

Federation - heavy ground assaults with massed infantry

Confederacy - slightly lighter, more mobile than Federation

Wookiees - good defences and infantry with fair armour

[Admiral Vostok]

Yes they are well co-ordinated, but I would hardly call their attack on Geonosis organised.

 

The Jedi arrived unaware of what they were to face, and as a result about 80% of the Jedi were killed. With Yoda travelling to distant Kamino then to Geonosis, it's fortunate he arrived when he did or there would be no prize to claim at all.

 

The Republic may not strictly be a "rush" civ. However, I think if we are going to have very different fighting styles for each civ, the Republic is the civ most like a rush civ, and as such should be a rush civ. Gameplay>Realism. We need a rush-oriented civ to add some variety, and the Republic fits that description the best.

[CorranSec]

There's already plenty of variety as it is, plus there are more civs to add, and one of those could easily be a rush civ (such as the Hutt Cartel). I think that in the interests of unique tactics and fitting with their battle style in the movies, the Republic should stay as I described them- it takes them a little while to do the research, but once they have, they strike hard and fast.

 

And anyway, do we need to have an actual 'rush civ'? The things I've described make the civs more unique, but they don't dictate the tactics (ie the Republic doesn't have to be an 'attack swiftly with masses of normal troopers in gunships' civ, they just have an ability to travel over distances quickly with large amounts of units). But having a civ built around rushing is telling people what to do (rush with the particular civ), and that's something we want to avoid.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Here's what I came up with:

You know how specific civs have bonuses related to seperate units (assault mechs do +2 damage, etc.)? One great way to make civs more complex would be to apply bonuses/penalties to all units. For example, all Imperial units get a +1 attack bonus. Same goes for armor, speed, LOS, etc.

 

Another idea that I mentioned before: Stealth.

 

I'm not talking about the GB "either you're invisible or visible"; I'm talking about something like a Hide Skill.

 

Let's say you have to be within 6 tiles to see a unit in GB. Well, I propose we increase LOS range (I'll explain why in just a second) and give units penalties/bonuses that make other units have to be closer/farther away to see a unit.

 

The Imperial units would be

 

So in conclusion, the Imperials would have slow vehicles with heavy armor that were easy to spot, while the Rebels would have fast-moving units, but with light armor that could remain hidden easier. This would replicate the Rebels' hit-and-fade tactics and the Imperials mass attack tactics.

 

Also, Advantage of Terrain needs to be expanded.

 

My proposals are:

Cliffs and mountains cast shadows giving a 1 or 2 tile Stealth bonus.

More advantages for high ground units firing at units below them, such as Accuracy.

 

So if you want to do more damage, get to high ground; if you want to stay hidden, remain low in the shadows.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Corran, Vostok- You guys really hate each other do you?

 

Dagobahn- That stealth thing seems a little too complicated for an RTS like SWGB2...

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran: What I mean is the Republic would be a bit like the Norse in AoM: They can quickly set up and get their economy and military going. This makes them suited to rushes, though by no means is that the only way to play them. It will still be a while into the game before they get their best units, just like everyone else. On the other hand, the Gungans (whose fighting style I see as completely opposite to the Republic) prefer to let the enemy come to them, using their defensive capabilities to grind down the opposition. So they are similar to the Egyptians of AoM, who have good defense but slower movement and slower army building capabilities than the Norse.

 

Dagobahn: Although I was originally enthusiastic about stealth, I think it might not suit an RTS.

[Sithmaster_821]

I'd like to point something out:

 

There shouldn't be any "rush" civs or certain "late game" civs. Balance is more important than what happens in the movie. Each civ should be equal capable at any given moment.

 

That said, I want to talk about differentiating with resourses:

 

Currently we have food, carbon, nova, and ore. I think we all decided to change nova to credits, and to make multiple ways of getting them. I also think that we should drop ore, for obvious reasons. But if we leave it at that, it would seem like they were copying AoM. So I suggest that we add a new resource. I would think that some sort of gas (like what they get from bespin) would fit well, because it would be usedd for propulsion (in aircraft and in some mechs/heavies)

 

Now, that said, certain civs should have certain reliences on certain resourses. The TF should have little or no use for food, even their workers should cost carbon or something (a la the all dwarf build) and the CF shouldn't need food for anything but their biological units. The Gungans, on the other hand, should be heavily relient on food, seeing that everything they have is biological. I think that it should so far as to say they need to pay small amounts of food for some buildings (the important ones, not things like farms or houses) in order for them to grow. Also, the Gungans would have no use for that gas stuff, seeing that all of their units are self propelled. The Imps, since we have decided that they should have very strong buildings, should use credits (to buy durable material) to build the higher up buildings (carbon is strong enough for the weak nothing buildings)

[lukeiamyourdad]

Sith-You're right about rush civs and late civs.

 

What about walls and possible fortresses? Made of Carbon?

And what about Rebs, Wooks and Naboo? Reb should use a lot of fuel(gas), but I dunno about Wooks an Naboo...Maybe Wooks could use alot of food since they need it for their troopers. And naboo are supposed to have the strongest building so they'll need credits like the imps...

[Admiral Vostok]

Sith - not a bad idea. Some would think that different civs needing different resources would be unbalanced, but I think it could be worked out well. I've always wanted gas because it makes sense in Star Wars, and you'd need to build an aerial harvester or something which is a bit different.

 

I'm not suggesting civs be strong in particular game stages like early game and late game. However, I do think that some civs should be better at rushing than others. As I've said above, in AoM Norse are good for rushes while Egyptians aren't so good. They are just as strong as each other in each age of the game. I want something like this for SWGB2, and I think Republic at least should be one of the civs that is good at rushing.

 

Also having thought much about the Swamp idea for Gungans, I'm not sure it will work all that well.

[Sithmaster_821]

^I rush with Eggies (though it is Set)

 

And I agree about the Swamp idea

[Admiral Vostok]

Still you must admit Norse are much better at rushing than Set is.

[Darth Windu]

Sith - RoN does just that. Food, wealth and knowledge are your main resources along with oil. Oil is only discovered in the industrial age and is needed to maintain aircraft and tank operations. This concept could easily be converted into Tibiana Gas (or whatever it is).

[lukeiamyourdad]

No No No. In RoN if I remember correctly you constantly need oil or your tanks and aircraft won't work. It sucks.

wealth is credit and knowledge is just for huge scale rts. This is SWGB...

[Sithmaster_821]

Vostok-No I don't, Albiet Set is slower than the Norse do to NO econ bonuses whatsoever, his ability to convert animals and his free "army" every age makes him an ideal rusher. Not to mention his sligner bonuses (slingers are probably the most important Eggies unit early on, followed VERY closely by spears, which both of his 2nd age minor gods boost).

 

Windu-According to RoNH, there are six main resourses in RoN(food, timber, wealth, knowledge, metal, oil), plus like thirty side ones.

[Admiral Vostok]

But if you want Favor with the Norse you have to play offensively rather than defensively, which lends itself to rushing.

 

Keep the RoN stuff for the Official Engine Thread.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Once again,

 

BEST ENGINE FOR SWGB IS LA'S OWN PERIOD.

[Sithmaster_821]

That's if you want favor;)

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay...

But I still think it would be a great idea to have certain civs better at different tactics. You should play offensively with the Republic, because that's how they fight. You should play defensively with the Gungans, because that's how they fight.

[Sithmaster_821]

Agreed, but you should be able to adapt each playstlye so that the civs are equally strong throughout the game.

 

BY the way, the avatar looks awesome. Nepthsys is getting old, but I haven't found an image cool enough to replace her (and she goes with my highlights)

[Admiral Vostok]

Oh I agree. Although the Republic is good at rushes, it won't be particularly strong or weak at any point in the game. Early on, it will just have the ability to pump out troops quickly, though they won't be particularly strong and would most definitely be unable to take down a command center. They might be able to slow down an enemy's econ though. To balance it out, the mechs and air might take longer than average to build. That doesn't mean they are less powerful in later tech levels, but harder to mass quickly.

 

 

My avatar: thanks, it took me ages last night. But I'm quite happy with the results. There was a period last night where I gave up and changed my avatar to the Battlecruiser commander from StarCraft, but then I endured and made what you see now. It doesn't take too long to load, does it?