How could each civ be made more unique?

[Admiral Vostok]

I'd really like to see whatever civs appear in SWGB2 made more unique, not just in the units available to them but also in the way they basically operate. By this I mean how in AoM each civ gathers resources, but Egyptians build seperate drop-points for wood, food and gold, Greeks combine their wood and gold drop point into one and Norse have a mobile drop-point for everything. A more extreme example is in WarCraft III how the Undead summon their buildings in while the Night Elves transform their workers into buildings. It's these little things that really make the civs unique.

 

So I sat down during my spare time the other day and wrote out a list of things that could add uniqueness. I stole some ideas from other games, and some I made up. Remember I'm only trying to make things different for each civ, not necessarily better. The mobile Norse drop-point is a great asset, but the other civs aren't losing anything by not having them.

 

So here's my list and noted next to it which civs I think suit the idea.

Legend: GE= Galactic Empire, RA= Rebel Alliance, RN= Royal Naboo, TF= Trade Federation, CIS = Confederacy, GR= Galactic Republic, G= Gungans, AoM= Age of Mythology, WC3= WarCraft 3, SC= StarCraft

 

- Troopers build the buildings, not workers (AoM Norse): RA

- Mobile dropsite (AoM Norse) : GR

- Combined dropsites (AoM Greek) : TF, GE

- Seperate populations for droids and biological (build two types of prefab shelter) : TF, CIS

- Regenerating buildings : G

- Grow buildings (WC3 Undead Summoning and SC Protoss Warping) : G

- Mobile population building (SC Zerg Overlords) : GR

- Not everyone needs power cores

- Turret and AA Turret combined : GE

- Build trenches instead of walls : RA

- Dropsites have weak attack : TF

- Unable to build walls : GR

- Units can garrison and shoot from within prefab shelters (WC3 Orc Burrows) : RN

- More expensive but more capacity for prefab shelters : GE

 

Any ideas you can add? Remember they would carefully be balanced just like they have in AoM and WC3, so points costs and build times might differ to compensate some things.

[Sithmaster_821]

Those are all really good ideas, its just that some aren't that original. But that's ok. Here are some others:

 

The Naboo can build all of their economic buildings for free, but they take a lot longer (to simulate Naboo's sprawling cities and economic power)

 

TF shouldn't need pre fabs and the CF's droids should count as 1/2 a pop point

 

Some different starts would be nice:

Imps start with 2 speeders and 2 workers

CF starts with genosians and an animal

Naboo starts with turrets

Et cetera

 

Rebs should be able to pack up and move certain buildings (seeing that most of them were meant to be temporary)

[rad-x]

Gungans's growing buildings? You can't go that unique without making up stuff. As you have. Good otherwise.

[swphreak]

Ya, Gungans aren't relly Biotech. Their buildings are mechanical. Let them build more defenses underwater. Like and underwater AA turrent.... woah, that would be killer.

 

 

f the Vong were to be in SWGB2, THEY would have regenerating building because their building (actually everything) is literally alive or organic.

[clonedjedi]

lol i like the idea of an underwater gungan turrent when i play rm the fighters flee to the water.

 

i think when gungans build there base turns to water but shallow water where any unit can go but it is partly submerged so the units can be built without swimming.

[Admiral Vostok]

Yeah I was thinking something like the Zerg's Creep from SC or the Undead Blight from WC3 for Gungans. Each building turns land within a certain radius to watery swampy stuff, and they can only build there buildings on this stuff. Except for Command Center and defensive turrets and walls.

 

In the EU stuff it says that Gungans "grow" their buildings, which is why they look so organic. I thought you'd have a worker initiate the growth, then they could go off and do something else while it grows. It might take longer to grow than other civs take to build, and you can't speed it up by assigning more builders.

 

Sith: Good ideas with the Naboo and movable Rebel buildings (though I'd suggest not all buildings can be packed up). With respect to your CIS idea, are you suggesting the Confederacy can build twice as much army as anyone else? Because that's what you would get for droids costing 1/2 population.

[Sithmaster_821]

Phreak-Gungans grow their buildings in SWGB. Look at the animation.

 

Vostok-Actually, I think I worded that wrong. I was refering to their droid troopers costsing 1/2 pop. Possibly some of their other units.

[Admiral Vostok]

Considering the Confederacy has the best troopers in the game, even that seems way too overpowered.

 

I've never been fully comfortable with the trade fed's lack of prefabs to explain droid control while the confeds still have to build them. I know Confeds don't have a droid control signal, but they still have droids that don't need food or sleep.

 

What about this approach:

Trade Federation: as long as the Trade Federation has one Command Center still standing, they get maximum population. This represents the droid control computer being physically inside the command center. If destroyed, the droids do not power down or anything, but you need to rebuild a command center before you can get more units.

 

Confederacy: the Confederacy also does not need prefabs, but each of their other buildings (except for defensive structures and resource drop-points) provide 10 population (and would cost slightly more to compensate). This represents the various factories providing both droid control for the droid population and hives for the Geonosian workers and pilots to inhabit.

[CorranSec]

Vostok: Some new ideas, rather than the current run of stolen AoM and Craft ideas, would be really good. Other than the obvious legal issues, veteran RTS gamers will recognize (and probably dislike) the similarities, but will hopefully be impressed by all-new yet just as good ideas.

Having said that, I must say I agree with some of your choices about what civs get what, and so on. I'm just trying to get something new as well as something tried-and-tested.

 

Trade fed pop idea- Sounds good. However, instead of just having a Command Center, I'd like to actually build a "Field Droid Control Center" or some such, and make that the thing that gives you unlimited pop.

This FDCC would cost about as much as a typical Troop Center (or whatever they're called in GB2). You start off with a max of 20, but need the FDCC for anything after that.

Does that sound okay?

 

Confed: Pretty ingenious. However, you shouldn't have to build tons of Troop Centers just to get more units. It should be balanced that if you have a fairly large, end-game base, you should be around the pop limit.

 

Gungans: They should indeed grow their buildings, but I'm not too sure about this 'shallows' thing. How about they make a special Gungan kind of water, which both ground and sea Gungan units can travel on, but other civs cannot build buildings or use sea units on? This would mean that Gungans with coastal bases will have the added benefit of using sea forces to defend or fight within the base.

 

Rebels: Instead of the "mobile buildings" thing, perhaps they could have fairly weak, collapsible buildings? This means that once enemies get through your outer defenses (which are still pretty strong, even though you're RA) you can collapse all of your buildings and get 80% of the resources back. I think this suits their situation as a terrorist movement, able to pack up and leave at a moment's notice. However, I'm not sure about troopers being your builders.....

 

Not sure about everything else. I'll get back on this as soon as I think of something.

[Admiral Vostok]

Firstly: I know lots of my ideas are ripped off. That's why I referenced them when I talked about them. I was just trying to get the ball rolling for the discussion.

 

Trade Fed Pop: I was actually thinking of something along those lines. Sounds like a good idea. How about, each Command Center gives you ten or so pop, but as soon as you build a droid control computer you get maximum pop. So if your droid control comp is destroyed, you still have backup systems at your command centers to get back on your feet.

 

Confeds: I don't think the fact you have to build lots of troop centers to get more pop would be a problem. After all, other civs have to build prefab shelters. You'd get more pop for a military building than a prefab shelter could give you, but you also can build new troops from it, so I think it would be fine.

 

Gungans swampland: I think letting sea units move over it is a bit too powerful. Nice idea, though. I think enemies should be able to build on it, because otherwise you could claim resource sites and totally deny them to enemies.

 

Rebel buildings: The collapsing idea is good. Maybe then we could give mobile buildings to the Republic, who are probably the most mobile army anyway.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - keep those idea's coming, im still looking for good ideas to incorporate into my idea for SWGB2.

 

Sith - do you like the mobile construction buildings in the C&C series? (ie the construction bulding being able to pack up and move, then re-deploy)

[eizo131]

My name isn't sith but I like the moblie center things. I have no idea wether this is in a game, but what about bridges that YOU can build? or platforms in the middle of an ocean? Then you can build bases on those platforms? Because in the SWGB1 it was mostly ground combat to me. ( that doesn't mean that I don't use ships, on contrary I do)

[Darth Windu]

eizo - i was referring to Sithmaster (sith), not you.

 

i really dont think bridge's will be needed, but if they were id prefer a mobile bridgelayer (similar in operation to the modern M-104 and M-60 AVLB)

[lukeiamyourdad]

Bridges are useless when you have transports(both sea and air).

 

I think Rebs should have some movable buildings but the colapse idea sounds good.

 

Rebs have the fastest moving bases so I think they could have both but the buildings are rather weak but have a faster build rate.

 

I think that if you want confed to not build prefab but normal buildings instead, you would need more then 10 pop per building.

 

About the Gungan swamps, it isn't overpowered to make certain ship capable of going in the swamps. Like your regular bongo for example, can get in those swamps but a cruiser can't. And ressource dropsites don't need to be build on swamps. It's better this way or you're gonna need a hell of a lot of command centers!

I was thinking of it to be like the zerg creep, it goes away after a certain time.

[Sithmaster_821]

Vostok: Maybe the TF would have 2 types of Command Centers:

The regular one and their Driod Control Center (which they start with and can only have one of). That simulates the TF's key weakness-A sabotage attack on the DCC could cripple the TF seeing that they can only have one (but it'd be strong)

 

The confed idea is good too, but maybe different buidlnigs should have different pops

 

Windu: I've never played C&C

 

Corran: I think that you idea was good, but it really only helps forward bases, and small ones at that.

 

Gungan swamps: If you notice, the land underneath the gungan buildings in SWGB automatically turns to swamp. When the building is destroyed, the swamp stays. Enemies cannot build on this swamp. Furthermore, Gungans are the only civ capable of building on existing swamplands.

[CorranSec]

TF DCCs: Yeah, Sith's point sounds good- if someone could take down the DCC, it'd cripple the TF's operations, but it'd be a difficult thing to achieve.

 

Confed: Yeah, perhaps the larger buildings (ie Castle-style things/Command Centers) would have high pop additions, while little resource centers would only add a few pop.

 

Mobile buildings: No, I was suggesting something like the "sell" option in C&C. However, this would be denied to all but the Rebels.

And I don't like the idea of the Republic being a 'mobile army'... where'd you all get that from?

 

Gungans: Hmm. Well, I wasn't proposing something like the Creep. But that might work. Thus, Gungans could block off important resource sites, just as the Zerg/Undead could.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Republic Mobile Army- He was referring to the fact that they could move the entire clone army from Kamino to Geonosis in so little time.

 

Gungans-I was just thinking that the swamp would dry ou after some time. It seemed logical.

[Admiral Vostok]

TF DCC's: Sith, I'm surprised at you. Gameplay>Realism, and giving the TF a strong DCC at the start will greatly advantage them against rushes. If the DCC is stronger than a normal CC it will last longer against an initial rush, and be an unfair advantage.

 

I think it should just be as long as they have one Command Center, they have full population.

 

Confed: Yes different pop for different buildings.

 

Mobile buildings: I think the selling idea could work well for Rebels, but it would be called "Evacuate".

 

The Republic is the most mobile force in the galaxy. They deploy via Gunships and are well co-ordinated. There speed is one of their biggest advantages, able to take the enemy by surprise while they are unprepared. However, I don't think their buildings should be mobile. If they stop long enough to set up buildings, they would be fairly substantial. I think they should have a mobile drop site like the Norse in AoM though.

 

Gungans: Sith - I know the Gungans left behind swamp and that they can build on shallows, but I thought the swamp they left behind could still be built over.

 

I was thinking along the lines of Creep/Blight for the Swamp. But resource drop sites and Command Centers would not need to be built on swamp.

 

I was also thinking about this for the Gungan's: people saw lots of problems with allowing Troopers to be amphibious. Well what if instead of amphibious troopers, it was Workers who could move in water? They could fish or build underwater prefabs instead of a utility trawler. They could also establish a new base on the other side of a lake. They would also be good for exploring, somthing that no other civ's workers are decent at.

[CorranSec]

TF DCC's: what about my idea? I didn't want them to get one at the very beginning, and I never suggested having one as tough as a normal Command Center.

 

Confed: Eep. (nothing more to say)

 

Mobile buildings: Foop. (nothing more to say)

 

Republic: Well, I always pictured them as having pretty heavily established bases. I mean, they're the ruling power in the galaxy, they have heaps of resources at their command.... they could practically build a city anywhere if they wanted. And I don't think they should have the same kind of terrorist mobility of the Rebs. By the same token, something like the Ox Cart would be more suited to the Rebs. However, a fast build/attack (lots of speedy gunships moving lots of quickly-produced clones) would work, and be very characteristic.

The way I see it, the Republic are slow starters- they can be kinda mobile, but they prefer to dig themselves in and heavily fortify their base. Their true military power doesn't come until they start cloning, which is around the midgame. Then they can churn out heaps of troopers, and hit the enemy hard and fast.

 

Gungans: Okay, Creep-ish stuff would be okay. But I don't want it too much like the Creep, and I'd like to be able to put sea units in it.

As for the mobile workers- Hmm. In the earlier parts of the game you can use workers as explorers, workers can escape enemies by diving into the water, and so on. This sounds fine, quite unique, and quite characteristic. But once you've got plenty of resources and have unlocked most of the tech tree, there's no point in swimming workers to islands in order to build bases when you've probably got plenty of air/sea transports at your command already.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Republic- They should be mobile but slowly. Gonna explain. Since they have a huge army, they can't be as mobile as the Rebs but more then other civs like the Naboo or Wooks. Trade Fed and Empire are gonna be a little less mobile but also can get an army there pretty fast.

The Republic will have the advantage of Gunships and other transport that should be slightly faster the usual(not as fast as Rebs tho) which would make their giant army quite mobile.

 

Corran-You kind of described the imps there so we need diversity...

 

Gungans- Well I believe those swimming workers will still have their place it later techs. They can swim to small islands and build a ressource dropsite there without the need of a transport which saves some time.

[boinga1]

here's mine:

 

rebels-visually, perhaps troopers could be made different species, not many, but perhaps some could be mon cal. for gamelay, perhaps shielding by default on fast fighters and enh bombers, but slower build times.

empire-an improved bounty hnter, a jedi hunter. he might be a ranged unit with stealth, for instance. dark troopers would then lose their ability to see through stealth.

naboo-increased building HP, perhaps, but weaker trooper units in levels 1 and 2.

gungans-artilliery could have greater range of effect, perhaps trooper could have greater attack but a slower fire rate. also, building should be 'grown' slower.

tf- droids can be built cheaper and faster, but are slower or weaker. dd should be more expensive but move faster and build quicker.

wookies-weaken bersecker, either their speed, HP, or build cost. troopers should be more durable-wookies do live hundreds or years.

gr-air cruiser sould be faster, jedi starfighter should shoot lasers but w/ less damage.other air units should be weaker, either in speed or cost.

cis-i dunno

[Admiral Vostok]

Republic: I see them as building strong bases, but still wishing to be mobile. The difference between the Rebels and the Republic in terms of mobility is that when the Rebels move they completely abandone a base, when the Republic moves they keep their previous bases maintained. That's why I think the Ox Cart-like drop point would suit the Republic. They build their strong base and quickly want to build up a force, so mobile drop sites are good in terms of quickly building an economy. Their buildings would take just as long to build and be just as strong as normal.

 

Corran, what are you talking about "Their true military power doesn't come until they start cloning, which is around the midgame"? They have Clone Troopers from the start, they've always been cloning. Are you suggesting they have no Clone Troopers until late?

 

Gungans: So people like the amphibious worker idea? Even if they do have less use in later tech (which I don't think they do) what is wrong with that? AA troopers have less use in later techs, but they are still there.

I think maybe the Swamp would operate like Blight in WC3, in that you don't need a special building to spread it like the Zerg's Creep Colonies, but the Swamp just surrounds all Gungan buildings except resource drop points. You could maybe allow smaller sea units to move on Swamp, like frigate size, but bigger ones should not. It is supposed to be a swamp after all. Once the Gungan buildings are destroyed, enemies must wait for the Swamp to dry up before they can build. Perhaps enemy troopers have to move slightly slower over Swamp too.

[Sithmaster_821]

TF DCC's: Sith, I'm surprised at you. Gameplay>Realism, and giving the TF a strong DCC at the start will greatly advantage them against rushes. If the DCC is stronger than a normal CC it will last longer against an initial rush, and be an unfair advantage.

No, I was assuming many things about the TF's play style. They (more than likely) will have the weakest troopers in the game, but strong later game units like mechs. Which makes them suceptible to otheer strong civs. But their lack of houses means that they can speedily adavnce to their stronger units if they don't build any early units (ala Ra FH in AoM). Also, I know that you don't play on line much, but the rushers rarely take down the tc to win (the DCC would only have more hp). They cripple econ and destroy all ability to build military.

 

Reps-Since the Republic buildings in the games were based on Corosant, why don't we allow allow certain buildings (mainly houses) to be stacked on top of each other (like with skyscapers)

 

Gungans: The swimming villager thing would be worse than the swimming trooper. They could easily own any water map (more so than they do already). And the creep swamp isn't really original

[CorranSec]

Reps: As I said, I consider them mobile in terms of offense and battles, but dug-in in terms of bases.

You want them to have amazing trooper-producing ability from the very start? Well, I personally consider that a little unbalanced. I wanted the whole cloning thing to require a series of tech researches, and the whole thing will take until midgame to achieve. I just don't see them as rushers. But when they do get the cloning techs, they can mass units and strike.

This isn't like the Empire at all. They may have heavily fortified bases (just like the Reps, they are the dominant galactic power), but they have slow attacks, with big, heavy mechs.

 

Gungans: As a supposedly civ-changing and highly unique addition, the swimming workers would need a decent purpose in the later game. As I said, you'll have plenty of transports lying around anyway, and if you want it balanced at all, transports will move faster than swimming workers.

[Admiral Vostok]

TF DCC: Okay Sith, put that way it sounds better. However, I still think it would be best that as long as the Trade Federation has one Command Center, they have full population.

 

Republic: I disagree. The Republic should be a rush orientated civ to reflect the way they fight in the movies. They won't be able to churn out troopers as fast as with the Clone Tech in SWGB1, but their troopers will be produced faster than any other civ. They may cost slightly more because of this. I actually toyed with the idea of not allowing the Republic to build walls to emphasise the fact that they are not a defensive-minded civ, they fight quickly and offensively.

 

The Empire, on the other hand, is more like what you've described. The Empire takes it's time, building up a base then attacking in a blitzkrieg (sp?) fashion.

 

Gungans: Amphibious workers won't let Gungans own a water map. The workers will move slower through water than on land. Also, Swamp may not be totally original but it's getting to the point where it's pretty hard to have a totally original game, don't you think?