Smood Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... inhales.... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOOO NAW NO NO (cries) NO. F the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted March 29, 2003 Author Share Posted March 29, 2003 DAMN IT! Why doesn't raven get it! Stop with the additions (i.e. fight multiple people). THEY KEEP MOVING FARTHER AND FARTHER AWAY FROM THE MOVIES! Enhance saber fighting to better reflect the movies! Enhance the entire game to reflect the movies, but STILL be a fun FPS! Damn it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
^_- Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 if you want it like the movies, MOD it. its a freaking game. better yet, go play KOTOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truthful Liar Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Uh-oh... Oh an Legion you have a present waiting for you in Yoda's Swamp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Well.. it could be a worser engine. At this rate, maybe the models / skins / mods for JKII will work for JKIII. So modellers won't abandon JKII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 While I'm not a fan of the Q3A engine myself, using it for a sequel does make sense. AFAIK, the only game Raven is making on the new DOOM engine is Q4...and I would hazard a guess that they can only allocate a certain number of their team to learning the ins and outs of that tech...they still have to keep producing games until they're all up to speed. Raven have a long-standing relationship with Id, and so of course they are likely to use Id's engines to make their games. And it works...Id make the engines, and simple games, and Raven takes that engine, uses a bunch of panel-beaters with 50lb hammers to knock it into shape, and churn out some damned good FPS games at what seems an alarming rate. I beginning to suspect some of these Raven guys are using Force Speed themselves, or something... Anyway...at least by using the tech with which they are familiar - and which they have already knocked into shape to make Jedi Outcast - we can get to play another Jedi Knight game sooner rather than later. After waiting for Unreal 2 for 3 years, and being disappointed by the end result...I have to applaud Raven for knocking out a far more enjoyable and long-lasting game in the shape of Jedi Outcast in just over a year. I would say that by next year, I think the Q3A engine will probably have out-lasted it's welcome...but then, if Valve can still use a heavily modified version of the engine they used to produce Half-Life more than 5 years later...anything is possible. While the newest incarnation of the Unreal engine looks decidedly pretty...it's a resource-munching hog of a beast that can barely heave it's bulk off the floor on older PCs (like mine). I know a lot of engines seem to be moving that way...but still, it can exclude some gamers from having an enjoyable experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 whoa whoa whoa, wait a minute. you're saying NO to the Quake 3 engine. I'm not programmer, or what not, but let's just look at a few things that I think would make sense. 1.) They made JO on the Quake 3 engine. Therefore, they have experience with it. Therefore, if they were to do any more work on it, they'd be able to do a good job of it, and it wouldn't take much time. 2.) JKIII is scheduled for a Fall 2003 release, or so the sources say at this point. That's this year. If they decided that they would suddenly get fancy and move on to Unreal, or the new Doom3 engine, you wouldn't be getting your JKIII anytime soon. 3.) If they have experience working with the game on one engine, why would you want them to start from scratch? Using the same engine, that means they just have to add what they wanted to add, without having to spend time designing it from the bottom up. They make new levels, they add in the custom character designs, etc. Because they are using the same engine, we all know how it will perform on our computers, or at least approximately. In addition, it's just a fact that gaming companies will only get so much time to design a game. They simply will not get a lot of time from their business contractors to go make a game. Raven got about a year to do it the first time. Now, it seems they have been given about a year again. Since they are using their old engine, that means a year to make what they had before better and more interesting, rather than a year to make it and hope it works. Let's hope they use their time to do just that, make a quality game, rather than making gimics. Some people may say "that's the point, we should wait a few years and have it on a new engine". The way I see it, a lot of players were disenchanted with JO when it came out. To many it seemed like a rush project, an unfinished game. The SP was polished and ran well, but the MP suffered a terrible history. It doesn't matter if you liked 1.04 or not, the fact of the matter is that what should have been a simple bug fixing procedure in 1.03 became a huge game changing event. Then 1.04 took 1.03 and changed the game yet again. At this point, I think the idea of waiting to release JKIII is a bad, they need to re-establish the game. Going closer to the movies in terms of saber combat is A MISTAKE. Firstly, it's an fps, and secondly, IT'S DARK FORCES!! Let's put it this way: the more people I can actively and dynamically engage with my lightsaber in Dark Forces, THE BETTER. Why!?!? Because Dark Forces has boatloads and shiploads and crateloads of SUPER DUPER LONG RANGE EXPLOSIVE GUNS!!! If my lightsaber is only capable of having dynamic combat with ONE person, it won't mean squat versus a bunch of gun toting jedi. But if the saber system becomes more wide sweeping, to the point where I have moves and swings that let me cover entire areas of a room, or multiple people, instead of just one single point, like in JO (which was basically wherever my teeney weeney crosshair was aimed at), then perhaps sabers will mean more in JKIII, the gunners can be happy, the saberists can be happy, and we can stop having this crappy online community where there are about 50 sabers only servers, and what not. Bring the community tighter together perhaps? Maybe I'm dreaming there though. But yeah, JKIII seems to be promising in those respects. Of the very early, and sketchy news we are getting, it seems the lightsaber is being shown off. I just hope that all the new guns they are planning to include will not be so over the top that the new saber system won't matter. I can't say I have much confidence in Raven at this point. They lost their handle on JO, so let's hope JKIII doesn't fall to a classic case of "well, you need to fix two bugs, but let's listen to the vast majority of the community and turn this into Force mod Quake". Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Doctor Shaft Going closer to the movies in terms of saber combat is A MISTAKE. Firstly, it's an fps, and secondly, IT'S DARK FORCES!! Let's put it this way: the more people I can actively and dynamically engage with my lightsaber in Dark Forces, THE BETTER. Why!?!? Because Dark Forces has boatloads and shiploads and crateloads of SUPER DUPER LONG RANGE EXPLOSIVE GUNS!!! If my lightsaber is only capable of having dynamic combat with ONE person, it won't mean squat versus a bunch of gun toting jedi. But if the saber system becomes more wide sweeping, to the point where I have moves and swings that let me cover entire areas of a room, or multiple people, instead of just one single point, like in JO (which was basically wherever my teeney weeney crosshair was aimed at), then perhaps sabers will mean more in JKIII, the gunners can be happy, the saberists can be happy, and we can stop having this crappy online community where there are about 50 sabers only servers, and what not. Bring the community tighter together perhaps? Maybe I'm dreaming there though. Just because you implement more dynamic, movie like, SKILLFUL, combat, doesn't mean you cannot fight more then one person. Yes this is a FPS, yes it is DARK FORCE, but it is also a game that is different then your standard FPS. Why is it different? It has a star wars theme, it has a rich story, but the main point is it has JEDI! This is the factor that seperates this game from many other games of its type, and thus this should be elaborated upon. MY POINT, which all the world is beginning to realize, is the closer we bring GAMES to MOVIES, the better they will become in every respect. Yes of course there will be negative aspects to this transition, but this is the entire point of evolution. To move to something better, and solve all the conflicts that arise from sustaining yourself there. JUST BECAUSE YOU FIGHT dynamically with skill, and more realistically as the movies portray, doesn't mean you will not stand a chance against gunners. Dueling should definately be enhanced to reflect the movies, while the gun vs. saber relationships can be left realatively similar, other then a few blocking modifications. Decreasing spammable weapons might also help, so gunners still have power, but jedi's have to work slightly harder. Ideally a balance needs to be established, whereby the realism of combat is increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 The more we promote a movie like atmosphere of dueling, the more prone we are to having a community where once again we have the people who play the full game, and then the other half that is having a sabers only, don't swing at me unless i'm ready, don't forget to bow... etc. The saber combat probably cannot be made very complicated, considering it is an fps. the game has to be about fast frags, not long duels where i hit you seventeen times to yield no result. JO is plagued with this to the point where it seems like there are two games floating around there. The one where we blast each other to bits with guns very quickly, or the one where we run around with wiffle bats, struggling to kill but never achieving it. I like Dark Forces because it is fast and furious. I like it when I can take literally all of the guns and be fast and furious with them, destroy my enemies. I don't like it when I have a weapon that is not fast and furious, and seems to serve no other purpose other than to tease me and make me feel like a jedi. The more my saber can be swung around the room, spammed, thrown everywhere, and causing fast havoc like the imperial repeater, the better. Movie atmosphere Dark Forces can be created via a mod. JO is currently being modded like this by the AOTCTC team. It looks like a promising mod, hopefully it will be finished. They are planning to give us the Star Wars movie theme, which is also cool in my opinion. But Dark Force is nothing about the movies. You like the movies, I like them, but unfortunately the main stream Dark Force players aren't looking for that, so I'll settle for what I can get. Finally, although Kyle Katarn is no longer the planned center character of the game, I will not be deterred by such a predicament. If I can indeed design my own character, choosing the race and such, I can only hope that I can make my human male look as close to Kyle Katarn as possible. And if the face is close enough ,then I'll also hope that his saber hilt from JK is in there, and then I'll make my saber green, and then I'll make my character choose the path of darkness... and I'll name him Kyle Katarn. Dark Forces without Kyle.... puh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Legend Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Actually, the fact that it is Dark Forces is the problem with this game. Why call it Jedi Knight III? It is time for a new series! Instead of making the original JK a Dark Forces sequel with Kyle Katarn- a character more like Han Solo- they should have just created a different character to become a jedi. Actually, going back to the formula of the original Dark Forces is what I wish they'd finally do. Running down a corrider while blasting stormtroopers... now that's Star Wars. The original trilogy didn't have the large amounts of saber warfare the prequels did. The original trilogy is by far better. Both JK and JK2 were great, but if we are going to see another Dark Forces game I'd prefer a prequel or something that can bring the series back to the way it was. As far as saber combat like the movies: make a game based around the time of the Old Republic. Movie style lightsaber battles? Look to the prequel movies first; it seems logical for movie style lightsaber battles to take place in the time of those movie lightsaber battles: the prequel timeline. Or you could go with a NJO game, but that book series has such an inconsistent mix of greatness and mediocrity that I'd prefer for them to not go there. I feel like I haven't really made a clear point. Here is my point: This game, without Katarn as the main character, is the perfect chance for the start of a NEW series. If it is Dark Forces combat you want, then why include sabers at all? If it is movie combat, then you might as well make a game centered around the Old Republic era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
master_thomas Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 At least Kyle is still in the game. I think he's the player's instructor. I think most of us agree that sabers are mindlessly weak. I feel they are currently closer to the plastic sabers with lights and sound effects when they hit objects are similar. Both glow. Both make flashes and sound effects when they hit eachother. Both are lethal if you hit someone with them after a LONG time:p. The only difference between those two and wiffle bats is that the other two have the sound effects, glow, flashes, and shape. Otherwise, they are surprisingly similar. I hate over-spammable guns like the flechette (if used properly, which isn't too difficult, a jedi has little chance of victory from that secondary fire). Most of us agree one what we want changed. Let's hope these are done with AT MOST, one patch for a minor gameplay issue that doesn't end up totally screwing up and causing feuds and arguments in the MP community. Come on. It's not the end of the world, StarWars, or the Dark Forces series. Raven made JK2, the great game that this forum is dedicated to out of the Q3 engine. This could allow file conversion. Coders for mods like Razorace with Masters Of The Force, RenegadeOfPhunk with Movie Battles, Azymn with Force mod; mappers like AKPiggot with Party Crasher, Wedge for Tal Erulanei, Eagle_e7 with project:minoan, Kengo with his occupation series, myself, and other mappers; entire dev teams for things like the Dark Forces mod, would all be able to have their works in the new game without spending 6 months to redo them (though it may take time or won't work at all and I'm probably being too hopeful). I don't have too much of a problem with JK3 on Q3. As Stormhammer said, [by the way, Stormie. You already have that for your avatar?]: Raven made this great fps in a year, why can't they make another without waiting an extra year for a new engine, which they are inexperienced in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 If you don't like it...Don't play it. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Doctor Shaft The more we promote a movie like atmosphere of dueling, the more prone we are to having a community where once again we have the people who play the full game, and then the other half that is having a sabers only, don't swing at me unless i'm ready, don't forget to bow... etc. The saber combat probably cannot be made very complicated, considering it is an fps. the game has to be about fast frags, not long duels where i hit you seventeen times to yield no result. JO is plagued with this to the point where it seems like there are two games floating around there. The one where we blast each other to bits with guns very quickly, or the one where we run around with wiffle bats, struggling to kill but never achieving it. I like Dark Forces because it is fast and furious. I like it when I can take literally all of the guns and be fast and furious with them, destroy my enemies. I don't like it when I have a weapon that is not fast and furious, and seems to serve no other purpose other than to tease me and make me feel like a jedi. The more my saber can be swung around the room, spammed, thrown everywhere, and causing fast havoc like the imperial repeater, the better. Movie atmosphere Dark Forces can be created via a mod. JO is currently being modded like this by the AOTCTC team. It looks like a promising mod, hopefully it will be finished. They are planning to give us the Star Wars movie theme, which is also cool in my opinion. But Dark Force is nothing about the movies. You like the movies, I like them, but unfortunately the main stream Dark Force players aren't looking for that, so I'll settle for what I can get. Finally, although Kyle Katarn is no longer the planned center character of the game, I will not be deterred by such a predicament. If I can indeed design my own character, choosing the race and such, I can only hope that I can make my human male look as close to Kyle Katarn as possible. And if the face is close enough ,then I'll also hope that his saber hilt from JK is in there, and then I'll make my saber green, and then I'll make my character choose the path of darkness... and I'll name him Kyle Katarn. Dark Forces without Kyle.... puh.... WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE MOVIES! This is the whole point. The saber is not deadly, not an instrument of skill, and deadliness. This is the reason I wish dueling to reflect the movies, and combat in general. The saber should be lethal, and a clean strike should yield death. I will refer you and all others to my vision reflected in the mod 'MOVIE BATTLES' which you have mentioned is by renegade phunk. We have a great system with a manual block, and ghoul2 dueling, as well as more features. This truly gives the best sense of a movie battle to date. What ever brings more skill, less chance, and works with the game is all I'm after! I understand this is a fps, and am glad it is! BUT THE GAME is not about 'FAST FRAGS' it is about a UNIQUENESS OF an fps. It is about integration of the Star Wars theme into the fps genre. It is about JEDI! Of course gunners have a equal part in the world, but the unique aspect of the game should not be overlooked like it has been, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Jedi Legend [*]If it is Dark Forces combat you want, then why include sabers at all? P R E C I S E L Y! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by wassup If you don't like it...Don't play it. Simple as that. If you dont like my post, dont reply to it. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Do you realize what would happen if they made the game like the movies? We would have a bunch of fanboys running around getting pissed off when someone who comes to play for fun owns them without bowing, shaking hands saying "You will die" then getting into a 3 hour long duel. I don't want that to happen. I play JKO to ESCAPE from the movies. Thats what SWG is for. Leave the saga making to SWG and JK3 the way it should be. Different from the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallen[fk] Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Smood WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE MOVIES! This is the whole point. The saber is not deadly, not an instrument of skill, and deadliness. This is the reason I wish dueling to reflect the movies, and combat in general. The saber should be lethal, and a clean strike should yield death. I will refer you and all others to my vision reflected in the mod 'MOVIE BATTLES' which you have mentioned is by renegade phunk. We have a great system with a manual block, and ghoul2 dueling, as well as more features. This truly gives the best sense of a movie battle to date. What ever brings more skill, less chance, and works with the game is all I'm after! I understand this is a fps, and am glad it is! BUT THE GAME is not about 'FAST FRAGS' it is about a UNIQUENESS OF an fps. It is about integration of the Star Wars theme into the fps genre. It is about JEDI! Of course gunners have a equal part in the world, but the unique aspect of the game should not be overlooked like it has been, Newsflash: THIS ISNT THE FREAKING MOVIES!!!! You want the game more like the movies? Learn to code and make a "Star Wars: Like The Movies" Mod. The game is supposed to be fun. The movies are great but they are an entity unto themselves. There is no need to make them "more like the movies". Make them fun. 1.04 killed this game for me. I continued to play but the saber combat is so tedious. What they should concentrate on is better hit detection and netcoding as well as damage scales and force powers. So that we don't have another patch fiasco. Leave the "making it more like the movies" to the mod community. As far as the engine goes, this engine is played out. There are entirely WAY too many q3 engine based games now, and if Raven expects to stay up on top in the gaming industry there's no way in hell they should have agreed to do the game in the q3 engine. They should have went after the Unreal Warfare engine or Doom III engine. I'd rather wait the time taken for a really spectacular game then have something rushed to the shelves just so Lucasarts and Activision can continue to cash in the profits. I waited nearly 6 years between JK1 and JK2. And you all are crying about waiting for it if they were to impliment a new engine. SO WHAT!?!? I say use a new engine, take the time to put something together that's going to rejuvenate a large number of this series followers that were disenfranchised with the way JO was handled. Those of you that want them to rush this out with the crappy Q3 old tired engine are just playing into their money grubbing hands. And what's going to happen? We're going to get another freaking fiasco with the game being patched and people crying left and right about this move or that. I guarantee that happens. Since the beginning of JO all I've heard is crying about this move or that move. They patch it. More crying. They patch it again. Finally the little fanboys get their 30 minute duels. And us who like the game to be more realistic and fun get ****canned. Those of us that enjoyed competing in this game. In 1.02 the competition community was big. 1.03 comes along our community got cut in half. 1.04 comes along and bam another 1/4th leave. Leaving the competition community with 1/4th the size we were originally. And up pop 825087 RPG servers with no saber = no attack, and must bow first, and all this other stupid saberist code crap. EVERY other game you all would be laughed out of servers for crying about "saber down man", "you lamed me", "scripter!!", "be honorable and bow", come on. Please, for the love of all that's good in the gaming community, please leave all that crap here in JO. When this game comes out PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't start all that code crap up again. If that's what you want turn to SWG (when and if it ever comes out) and KOTOR. God I can't stand all that crap. Note to Lucasarts, Raven and Activision: For those of us that you refused to listen to, for those of us that you ruined this game for, PLEASE, take your time with the next installment. Don't pay heed to the fanboys and rush another game out just for the money. If you want me to ever buy another one of your games, PLEASE, take the time and work out a new engine whether it be Epic's Unreal Warfare engine or Id's Doom III engine. I don't care which, cause they're both absolutely beautiful on my machine. But please, the Q3 engine has run it's course, don't rush us out some crap game that you subsequently have to patch over and over and once again kill for the "serious" gamers. I know you won't take this to heart from this board so I'm going to e-mail you Ken Hoekstra!!! You didn't listen to me and you went and made the 1.04 patch that killed this game for many of us. Now please give the serious gamers their version, the duelist rpg newbie's had theirs, it's our turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Smood If you dont like my post, dont reply to it. Simple as that. Whoa...slow down there, cowboy. I never said anything about not LIKING your post or anything. I was just expressing my point of view to you. Also, it is my RIGHT to post and reply whenever I feel like it, as is your right. The only strong reason that I feel they should switch engines is because Quake III engines games dont minimize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallen[fk] Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by wassup Whoa...slow down there, cowboy. I never said anything about not LIKING your post or anything. I was just expressing my point of view to you. Also, it is my RIGHT to post and reply whenever I feel like it, as is your right. The only strong reason that I feel they should switch engines is because Quake III engines games dont minimize. Hit Alt+Enter and then just switch in windows navbar. Same thing as minimizing functionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by fallen[fk] Hit Alt+Enter and then just switch in windows navbar. Same thing as minimizing functionally. Yah but for some reason, when I am in a MP server, and Hit Alt-Enter, it reconnects into the server. Also, my comp becomes extremely slow everytime I Hit Alt-Enter, and theres a good chance it will freeze cause of the slow-down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallen[fk] Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 You stay connected it's just the engine resetting itself. You'll notice that you don't lose your points or score or whatever when you do this. So it's not really reconnecting, just something the game does to adjust to the new setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY_jmr1 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Oh. Look. A ban jumper. Whatever should I do??? Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. Athinka. DELETED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 The game hasn't even been officially announced and people are already flaming each other and complaining. Suffice to say: Nothing to see here, move along, move along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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