Gameplay Suggestions

[remark 666]

underwater level(s) and underwater fighting, that would be awesome, you hold your saber pointing forward and you swim right into people (jab them), would be a nice touch for single player mission(s) or who knows, maybe a nice mode for MP with maybe a help of some Mod, you'll have to have the animations and stuff like that done for them (stuff they can't add/edit I mean)

 

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you talk about massive blocks from all around...when online, not everyone is shooting at you at the same time, you know...

 

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I thought of a better idea for kicks (no offence, for me at least and requires MUCH less work for the team), just make the flip kick cost force (of course not a lot) but with full force bar you can do 3 kicks total ? depends how they set it up and I like the idea "if you face them (crosshair) then the kick won't knock you down but set you off balance a bit and if it's back kick it'll send you eating dust forward or knock you on your knees for small amount of time (have the animations rotate between the 2 of them?) and if it's a side kick you go flying...

 

a nice addition for the flip kick would also be : if you kick the opponent and he is not facing you (with the crosshair) so you get a 100% kick in his face/back/side the opponent will fly back/forward/side (actually lifting off the ground for a sec) and hit the floor giving him some time to get back on his feet, you can balance this by making the opponent fly a nice distance (I'm not talking about a mile here, just small space) enough to almost get up before the kicker comes back to try and pull off a special move, of course this will be once in a while thing so it's not "spammed" just an idea

 

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an awesome move I think would be hold/take hostage, yeah, you grab and HOLD the enemy, so if you have things like Team Duel mode you can hold one and your partner can finish him off with a special, of course you only have few small seconds and it would work like saber clashes, if you tap fast you can escape rather quickly (you're the one getting held), if you're not fast enough...you die! this would add a whole new meaning to Duels (if Team Duels or even CTF ?) and would take the fighting one step farther, just think about this for a sec...oh and if the opponent wins and you can not hold him you will be pushed back and he can do a backspecial quickly before turning around again and killing the other team mate who wants to cheap kill you! muahahah! this would be sooo much fun (in special modes only and if turned on by admin)

 

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I like the idea of real-touch hits with saber but there are many different connections online, some people get it faster and some slower, I don't think it would be good to complicate things and have different servers with things like that, maybe single player, not MP

 

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I like the weapons that can be seen, AT LEAST the saber on the belt and/or one gun on the other side? Heavy Metal: FAKK 2 style, similar engine....

 

I dunno, I see a lot of great ideas but I bet, hope not, but I bet they won't ever read them =/ though it's nice to see a lot of people like similar things in gaming

 

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weapons picking like Halo style is awesome (for those who didn't play, you can carry small amount of guns) because a walking tank is soooo dumb, even for online fighting, where the hell do they put them all 0_o at least make that realistic though like I said, we might not see all these things mentioned here UNLESS they thought of some themselves =/

 

if the RAVEN TEAM is reading this...please acknowledge that, at least, you've read this and taking some ideas for interest, you guys are busy but show some kind of interest in your fans by surfing your own, official, forms and at least saying few words on this matter =/ I don't like to waist time on nothing, I DO care about this game because I loved playing JK2, it was my first game ever in any field of online play (star craft I don't count) and it was the first Star Wars title game I played for PC, I enjoyed it, met tons of nice people (some are friends now) and just had a blast on some of my free time, I expect this game to be much better, try to rule out hackers by trying to eliminate autobots additions (take a look at current cheats for Q3 title games so the community can improve on it)

 

good luck

 

http://www.ravenforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1619&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165

[tam]

no one is really listening to my stance idea

 

the stance would put people in different stance and add a truely unique experience from others. like lets say im player one in the crane stance, and the other player user the scorpion stance, not only will our characters look visually different in our movements and standing normal, but with new stances should come new styles/special moves that can only be done with those stances. if u want an idea of this, play mortal kombat deadly alliance

[HertogJan]

This is NOT a martial arts game... I've never seen real martial arts in SW, so leave it out...

[BloodRiot]

Actually there's Teras Kasi but nevertheless i think it should be left out...

 

But if your talking about diferent saber fighting styles for all three saber types (single, dual or double bladed) then it's a whole new ball game.

 

I'm not putting my hopes on this feature... but it would sure be sweet to have it.

[tam]

i was not saying make it a martial arts game im saying add some variety to the game with a few more melee moves like round house kicks etc

 

on the stances issue: the stances would open up to the players a unique feeling. u change ur stance, u open up new styles/special moves for all the sabers (dual, double ended and single). you'de stand different, preform ur moves different(all these animation wise), etc when in a diff stance.

[{DHU}Screed]

Remark666, why do you want to turn this game into a chat room? Go play EQ or even SWG's if you want an rpg. But please, its people like you that ruined JK2. Go sit in your server and /amsit singing coombaya.

[nova_wolf]

Stances thing - nah.... Can see where it came from, and is a nice idea, but too complex.

 

The Halo style weapons idea - EXCELLENT! Say your lightsaber and 2 or 3 weapons of choice. that way people dont have to worry about being stuck with naff wepaons that suck.

Would also add some spice to MP - add a new level of strategy, especially in team modes, as you can run in and drop a weapon at a certain point which ac ts a supply depot - you brinf what you got, and swamp for what you want.

 

I still like my idea of the saber & blaster pistol combo stance... Would merge well with the Halos tyle weapons pick up....

 

Damn - hope it the game isnt delayed, else can see blood spilling....

[Kurgan]

A lot of the combat features of JK2 were demonstrated admirably in the Bushido Blade series of games. I consider them a worthy addition, considering how well they worked in those games.

 

You guys should check them out sometime and see if you don't agree...

[HertogJan]

Roundhouse kicks in a starwars game?? I still think that those things don't really fit in, although I like martial arts stunts in games, like Max Payne.

 

But no, please no more CQB moves. Oh I do believe that the stances should be more different, as in 'different styles'. But they already said in an interview that the stances for single saber would be the ones used in JK2... Although tweaked of course...

[BloodRiot]

Tam: one small corection... melee stands for short range weapons like spears, swords, clubs, axes and the like... not hand-to-hand, martial arts or brawl fights

 

Anyway... I support the Halo type weaponry as in only being able to carry 2 or 3 weapons at a given time. Delta Force Loadouts aren't such a bad thing, you switch classes and available weaponry at the armory and carry on from there.. you can even re-stock your ammo there.

 

Bushido Blade had basic but very entertaining swordfighting. You dont actually have a defense button but rather you time your strikes and choose your stances. If the fighters press the attack button at the same time the swords would clash together.. it's was a matter of timming, and basic parry -> counter-attack techinique... although basic i found it very fluid and quite entertaining as a duel could end at the very first strike or last for an hour long if need be. In my opinion it was a very unique game and I never spoke it out loud but I wished JO and now JA to be similar on several ocasions... the fighters were really engaged into eachother... one of the things that probably most dificult to reproduce in a fps duel... the concetration on a certain opponent when there's all hell breakign loose around.

 

Anyway... I dunno how many of you know Bushido Blade... but I think if it was sucessfully incorporated into JA let's say for the Duel modes... it would be quite spectacular and I am all for this.

 

As for another point(just a small personal feeling, not intended to create much of a follow up or start a new line of discussion), I think that im not really gonna have my ideal game in JA nor KOTOR nor even SWG... I've seen a bit of how saber combat is gonna be in KOTOR... it looks much better than JO ever did... but you dont actually fight it for yourself but rather leave it up for stats and numbers...it will work fine if im the mood for some NWN like action but If I want to control every aspect of the character according to MY reflexes and MY skill, I have to rely upon JA... I would never turn JA into an RPG I'm all against that idea... it's just that I wished that you could see a duel in a FPS that stays FPS but would look as the fighters where as much engaged as they would on Bushido Blade for instance.

I'll just have to hope that Raven get's it the best they can according to the feedback they got from all of the community, and succeed in what they failed with JO.

 

Although I think some ideas are interesting I think some things are better left out of the game for the sake of effective simplicity over the self destructive complexity. I think one hand-to-hand move is ok but that's about all it should be. Force Powers should be tools to create more dynamic gameplay and not be overused as the main weapon as we see on JO's CTF games. More Force Powers are not the answer but rather few but more dynamic and interesting Force Powers.

The real catch is maintaining good balance between sabers and gunz so that none may conquer over the other almost automatically and instead if both players are equally skilled, it turns out to the players themselves that make the diference and not the weapon. Saber Vs Saber however is the trickiest part... since it should be both simple as it should be skill based and also appealing to the eye as the famous Qui-gon-Obi-Wan vs D. Maul was in TPM. It's not an easy task... but maybe.. just maybe it's possible. If some of you disagree with me I accept that up front and I'm not willing to debate... I'm simply sharing my thoughts with you. Hell If the SP is hell lot better than JO's and it's replayable.. It may just stick with it for some time

 

Well I'm all out of steam and i've said pretty much what was on my mind about this game. I have high hopes for it I sure hope i'm not disapointed... and if JA's main big diference is balance... I wont.

 

Cheers.

[nova_wolf]

Played Squaresofts Bushido Blade and loved it.

 

The graphics may not be up to much by modern standards, but its game system was great.

 

No health, no time limit.

 

You had a few abilities per stance (high, medium, low). The stances were the same for every one, and every weapon. The moves fitted the weapons well.

 

That, and it was KICK ASS! Best blade based duel game I think I have ever played. It was true timing, strategy, positioning. Learning when to go for the kill, the knockback or harm you opponents arms or legs (legs - can only move along slowly on one knee, so less moves and abilites available, arms - wield weapon in one hand only, reducing combat effectiveness) But you coud STILL nail someone who was injured in such a way.

 

Such a system would be GREAT! But I can see it as more of a mod once things have settled down.

 

Now as a seperate game ENTIRELY.... Few force powers - push/pull, jump and speed are the main ones for duel. Most of the others are more for combat rather than duel (Lets NOT have this arguement - NO! You just need to see what I mean here!)

[Solo4114]

I never played the first Bushido Blade, but I played and loved the second one. that's kind of what I'd advocate for in terms of stances. You have different stances to perform different attacks, but the lethality of the weapons themselves never changed. If you scored a hit, that's it. Game over. But duels could be as short as 30 seconds or as long as 5 minutes. Ultimately, that's the general speed of gameplay I'd like to see in a JA game, especially in duel mode. In CTF mode, or FFA (or any other fast paced mode) I'd think that the higher lethality would still help, but blocking systems might need to be tweaked some.

[Necrosis]

Raven isn't going to change the entire saber system this late in development.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Devil’s advocate time.

 

I’m not flaming anyone nor am I saying the concept is a bad idea but I do have a question for most of you.

 

 

High damage (1-2 hit kills) sabers seems to be what everyone wants correct?

 

Ok that established I’m curious why all the one hit kill moves were the main focus of complaint by the overwhelming majority of players on these forums over the last year.

 

It seems in every patch any and all one hit kill saber moves were considered cheap/lame and un movie like and had to be removed/reduced because they were “destroying the game” as so many, many, many forum members put it.

 

Now let’s say JK3 comes out and sabers are extremely lethal.

 

I really foresee the same people begging for these changes as being the first ones to complain because “Padawans” can run through a crowd of people and mow them down just by flailing randomly.

 

 

 

Now I know what your about to say, “If there is an extremely complicated blocking/attack system implemented noobs won’t be able to do that”.

 

But let’s not BS anyone.

Raven/LucasArts will not put out a game so heavily complicated and advanced that the average player will not be able to even compete in it.

 

Not everyone is going to spend countless hours every day learning the saber combat system, game companies know this so they throw in “easy kill” moves and weapons to appeal to the casual player which is their largest target market.

 

A 9 button ninja style block/parry system that takes master grasshopper reflexes to use is simply not going to happen.

 

If sabers are high damage weapons they are most likely going to be *easily “spammed” and to be honest I really hope you guys are ready for that.

[Jeff 42]

You're right, some people probably would complain about lethal sabers. I think most would accept it, though, if we also get a good blocking system and no lame "special moves." There were very good reasons to complain about the one-hit-kills in 1.02 and 1.03. 1.02 DFA was a one-hit-kill even when the lightsaber was sticking into the ground, which was obviously retarded. BS was cheap because it was unblockable, and it looked really stupid to always have people turning their backs on their opponents in a sword fight or even worse running through levels backwards swinging randomly. In 1.04 if you get a full heavy swing to connect solidly on someone it's usually a one-hit-kill, and no one complains about that. So I don't think 1-2 hit kills implemented as part of a reasonable saber system would be a problem.

[The Truthful Liar]

In response to shock: If guns are deadly enough, it should easily take an experienced gunner to take down such (inexperienced) 'flailing' saberists. So in a sense they both can cancel each other out pending on one's skill.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

i'm all in favour of lethal sabers, my only concern is that in higher ping games (150+) most of the saber kills will be due to chance rather than skill.

[Solo4114]

I think guns could be balanced relatively easily. The question is do they make interesting guns or stick with the standard FPS fare. I'd like more interesting weapons, personally. That was part of the appeal of UT and Duke Nukem 3D. Sure you had your basic machinegun/rocketlauncher/shotgun stuff, but you also had pipebombs, flak cannons -- back when this was new, bio rifles, etc.

 

Anyway, as for the sabres, I think that shock has brought up some interesting points which deserve an answer. The reason that I complained about the various one-hit-kill moves was specifically because they were spammed, not because they were deadly in and of themselves. I have no problems with a deadly sabre, as long as the rest of sabre combat is fun and interesting to play. The problem you had with virtually all iterations of JO was that the damage was different depending on which move you used. Yes, it was possible to kill people with the sabre, but it was a hell of a lot easier to spam the DFA (red or yellow), the backstab, the blue lunge, etc. because these were essentially unblockable (or hard to block) and were one-hit kills as opposed to having to duke it out and dish out lower leves of damage.

 

The reason why people complained that this wasn't movie like was not necessarily the level of damage the moves dished out, but the fact that that was ALL anyone was doing. One of the primary reasons why I'd like to see 1-2 hit kill sabres for ANY move in ANY stance is so that you'd avoid people spamming one particular move over and over. You'd actually have to duel it out, like in the movies, in order to kill someone with a sabre (assuming that the blocking system did work well).

 

As far as dealing with gunners, a single sabre swing could kill a gunner, again, like in the movies. The gunners would still have an advantage at range, though, assuming that blocking against weapons is not so ridiculously high as to make guns useless.

 

Raven would have a real balancing act on its hands in creating a system that worked like this, but hell, that's what they're dealing with anyway: making a balanced sabre vs. sabre vs. guns system. I think it can be done, you just have to pay attention to detail and playtest the hell otu of it.

 

AND release a public freaking demo so that the public itself can playtest it FOR you, PRIOR to releasing the game in stores!!! GET A CLUE LEC.

[shock ~ unnamed]

In a way you guys just made the point I brought up.

 

Say there are no special moves and all basic saber swings are deadly more or less.

 

Why bother to learn stances and whatnot just run around and hold down mouse1 and flail like crazy and you're bound to rack up kills.

 

 

So how to you counter this?

 

Make only certain moves that require multiple keys to pull off the high damage extremely lethal ones.

 

*Special moves.

 

People will "spam" those then.

 

You make basic sabers super deadly people will just flail around.

You make special moves deadly people will only use those.

 

Honestly I'm fine with either of those.

I never complained about any moves in any version I just adapted and countered.

 

But I really do see this as a case of "be careful what you wish for".

[Jeff 42]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

Why bother to learn stances and whatnot just run around and hold down mouse1 and flail like crazy and you're bound to rack up kills.

Well, sure, just like in the early days of JO I would rack up kills simply by spamming splash damage weapons into groups of saberists. But when you get into a game with skilled players tactics like that aren't going to be so effective. And in a duel someone who knows how to effectively use all the stances and moves would tear apart someone who's just running around flailing like an idiot (assuming there's a proper blocking system). Anyway, at least a map full of people running around forward and swinging randomly would look less stupid than a map full of people running around backward and swinging randomly, as in 1.03.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by Jeff 42

Well, sure, just like in the early days of JO I would rack up kills simply by spamming splash damage weapons into groups of saberists. But when you get into a game with skilled players tactics like that aren't going to be so effective. And in a duel someone who knows how to effectively use all the stances and moves would tear apart someone who's just running around flailing like an idiot (assuming there's a proper blocking system). Anyway, at least a map full of people running around forward and swinging randomly would look less stupid than a map full of people running around backward and swinging randomly, as in 1.03.

 

Exactly.

 

The reason I never complained about back stabbing was because like a lot of experienced players, it was not an issue for me.

 

We knew the proper counters and defensive strategies so regardless of whether you ran at us head on and tried to rip us off our feet we were prepared and it was the back stabber who usually ended up dying.

 

But as I'm sure most of you have noticed 90% of the people playing JK2 did not take the time to learn stances and counters.

 

 

There have always been and always will be a small percentage of players who will always overcome whatever "spammed" move is popular at the moment.

 

But the other 90% of the people playing are simply going to become frustrated at all of the "random slashing newbies with one hit kill sabers".

 

Bottom line is there is no way anyone can argue that the majority of JK2 players are "experienced" players.

 

The majority are Star Wars fans first, FPS game veterans a very distant second.

 

If this would not have been the case we never would have seen a 1.04 patch because the back stab would not have been an issue.

 

A few of us studied game physics and developed strategies to avoid it, the vast majority of players did not and hence became frustrated and demanded Raven cover their short comings.

 

And I'm sorry but I unless I start seeing a lot of you regulars here start playing on competitive clan servers over the next six months, you're going to be right back in the same boat you were in 6 months ago.

[The Seeker]

Sorry for the inconsistency with the rest of this thread, but I had posted this as it's own thread, and it was moved here, so here you have it:

 

Personally, I think JKII was a pretty good all around game, but as is well known, was pretty flawed as well, so here is what I would like to see in JKIII:

 

A better villain. Desann was just plain annoying. He was corny, looked like barney the dinosaur, and as a boss, was far too over and under powered. Over powered in the area that you could barely get near him to spar, and underpowered in that with force speed, you can kill him with five whacks. As a boss, Tavion was far more fun to fight. Why? Because her powers were just barely more than yours, so you could spar with her, and had to use your wits about your powers to bring her down. Very challenging, but in an entertaining way, unlike Desann.

 

Next, for weapons: First, I would like just a bit more control over the lightsaber. JKII was pretty good about it, but it was still a bit random, just a little tweaking would work fine. For ranged weapons, I would like to see more quality and less quantity. For instance, the blaster rifle in JK was nearly perfect for a blaster rifle. It was powerful, moderately accurate, and had a nice high rate of fire. JKII's version was nearly useless. It was unaccurate even at close range, and underpowered.

 

I would also like a stealthy weapon or two. A slugthrower is known to the SW universe, and could be silenced, which would make me very happy indeed. While playing soldier of fortune II and medal of honor allied assault, I always used my silenced pistol first given the choice. To counter that, I would like a good assault blaster with a high rate of fire. The Thomsen SMG or the BAR in MOH were good, as well as the M4 in SoFII. Those guns are always pretty accurate with single shot or short burst, and not far off with full auto. In star wars games it seems, a high rate of fire always loses accuracy and stopping power, where in other games, a heavy assault rifle has tremendous stopping power with good accuracy in burst and single. Just something like that in blaster for would be good

 

No gripes about the force powers.

 

For the enemy AI, I really hated how the stormtroopers in JKII bobbed and ran and rolled around as if their armor added mobility instead of taking it away. Look at the movies, and the Stormies were very organized, always hitting enmasse, but holding their ground or making steady advances. They would find cover if necessary, but no suddenly crouching and twisting. It's just not how they act, and made the first few levels a real pain in the @$$ because you just had to fire randomly with your unaccurate blaster rifle and usually miss.

 

Which brings me to hit detection. JKII's was okay, but Soldier of Fortune II's Ghoul II hit detection system was supurb. A head shot with any gun would drop a guy with one hit. Whereas in JKII, you had to plug them over and over even with a close range head shot. Really made stealth and surprize a pain to pull off.

 

So, thats all I can think of for now, I'll add to it as I think of it. What would you guys like to see, detail wise?

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

In a way you guys just made the point I brought up.

 

Say there are no special moves and all basic saber swings are deadly more or less.

 

Why bother to learn stances and whatnot just run around and hold down mouse1 and flail like crazy and you're bound to rack up kills.

 

 

So how to you counter this?

 

Make only certain moves that require multiple keys to pull off the high damage extremely lethal ones.

 

*Special moves.

 

People will "spam" those then.

 

You make basic sabers super deadly people will just flail around.

You make special moves deadly people will only use those.

 

Honestly I'm fine with either of those.

I never complained about any moves in any version I just adapted and countered.

 

But I really do see this as a case of "be careful what you wish for".

 

I agree, we should all be careful what we wish for, whether it be more powerful sabres, bigger guns, only blaster weapons, tweaked force powers, etc. The patch debacles in JO clearly showed that what we may come up with as a good idea in THEORY may leave a lot to be desired in execution. Ultimately, though, we have to trust the developers to do a good job, or turn to the mod community.

 

That said, I still think that the lethal sabres, rather than special moves is the way to go. You can set the sabre combat system up any number of ways, ranging from having good blocking, having an aiming system (where you attack determines your likelihood of penetration), and having a trump system (one stance always trumps a different stance, which in turn, trumps another stance, etc.). There are plenty of ways to set up the combat so that it doesn't just turn into people flailing around. Of course, if all you ever do is go on the offensive and flail around against an opponent who does the same, you may run into problems and be dissatisfied, but I think that if defense and offense are well balanced and people play SMART, you could do a workable high or equal damage system.

 

People shouldn't be able to flail around and get kills that easily, unless they're doing it against someone using the same strategy. That's not to say that the game shouldn't be newbie friendly. Far from it. But it should require a modicum of skill to really do well, and that skill should not be dependent upon learning one particular move. I'd like a little more depth to my game than just spamming a single move.

 

Plus, the higher lethality would definitely help for sabres/FF CTF games, or FFA sabre battles. Even for a class-based mod, a higher lethality rating for the sabres and equal damage for all swings would help speed the game up.

[StriderPrime00]

You make basic sabers super deadly people will just flail around.

 

I don't think it will be a problem. If you have saber auto block, you can easily block a saber attack. If you have a gun, you should be far enough to shoot your opponent from the side, back, top or bottom, or just send a rocket right at him. Sabers are close range melee weapons that should be deadly at close combat. A real duel should not last longer then a few seconds. All realistic fights are short, unless both sides play defense really well. A two second instant kill duel against a newbie should be possible and a 1 minute duel against an expert duelist should be possible. Dueling with another saber player will use auto block as your primary defense. Depending on how well you can block, push, throw your opponent, a battle can be dragged out. The saber combat should be design that all saber hits are deadly. Light hits are not good in throwing your opponent back or off balance, the heavier attacks are great at knocking down your opponent at close range, then you have to switch to a light attack to follow up on the combo to finish your opponent off. All Saber Swings should be fast, but the light attack have a small range of motion allowing a small window of oppurtunity to penetrate, while a heavy attack requires a larger whine up and end animation which provides more of a window of oppurtunity to attack.

 

Actually, allowing these different attack with different start and end time is somewhat implement in the JO, but the saber attacks are weak and the saber swings are unrealisiticly slow on heavy attacks. They also need to improve hit detection and make heavy attack knock down a opponent instead of cutting thru their defense and opponent. They also need to figure out how to make attacks more accurate against a zip zagging opponent swinging like a maniac. They have to implement a system to punish players who can't duel well.

 

Oh, this will be nice too if possible, but they should definitely allow environment variable to come into combat. I would like to shoot out the light in a room and pull out my rocket launcher at a Jedi holding a glowing saber. Or even cut down a lamp post and force push it into my opponent.

 

I think a beta test is in order to make sure you have what the public wants =)

[Kurgan]

I'm not saying all saber hits should be instant kill.. but 1 or 2 good hits should be enough on on unshielded opponent.

 

You could survive a glancing blow (consult your movies guys).

; )

 

I agree, blocking should be such that a skilled saberist can cut down "newbies" left and right, whereas two masters can make their fight last a long time (and not just by running from each other or grabbing tons of shields).

 

Perhaps, as I've said before, dueling should have a "lowered damage" mode or something as an option, so that people can have their "long dramatic duels" (I believe these options can be tweaked out of the cfgs already) and a "normal" damage mode (high, realistic) so that the saber is a worthwhile weapon in all out games (with the rest of the weapons, esp. CTF).

 

Right now the saber in non saber-only game is powerful, but it becomes silly because it takes too long to kill a saberist with your saber, so you have to switch to a gun/explosive.