Marker0077 Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 The basic version of Duelers is out. It has a whole new duel mode that allows multiple duels at the same time (pairs up the better players with the better players, worse players with worse players), shows the winners remaining HP & shields (not in the center of screen because that is annoying), custom hilt pack with the saber blade in the exact same position, etc; etc. Checkout http://duelers.jk2files.com for more information & download. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSurfer Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 I thought a MOD had already been released that did all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 I thought so too. Sounds kind of cool though. As for dominating the JK2 modding scene, I would venture to say...no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Shouldn't it be Duellers or is that British spelling? Anyway, I like the Non-interferance code duel feature. I may have to test this mod out again. I've played with the old FFAMod version. As for it dominating the JKII mod scene, probably won't. Everyone likes ProMod and OmniMod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shock ~ unnamed Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Huh? Last time I checked there were only 1-2 promod servers. Sadly... VAM and the JA mods dominate the server lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaledDur Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed Huh? Last time I checked there were only 1-2 promod servers. Sadly... VAM and the JA mods dominate the server lists. Yeah there are only one or two, which is a shame. There are quite a few OmniMod servers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted April 9, 2003 Author Share Posted April 9, 2003 No it's spelled Duelers, it was originally Duellers but it's 1 L in english according to the spell checkers. Duelers is the ONLY mod that gives real tournament logic game mode. The rest of the features are similar to JediPlus except it has been coded much better, much smoother gameplay, we are also thinking of adding some new moves for the 2 extra stances since they are only used for dual bladed sabers/dual sabers by default & that's what they are planning on doing with JK3. Originally posted by Prime I thought so too. Sounds kind of cool though. As for dominating the JK2 modding scene, I would venture to say...no. I still think Vulcanus will reign champion of being most used mod (which couldn't of happened to a nicer guy), but I think it's mainly because it's a server-side only mod, that's a big plus for some reason. It should take over the JediPlus scene though. You also have to realize there is much more to Duelers Full than just the mod, the mod itself is what Duelers Basic is, Full will have a set up of the likes that no mod has ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed Huh? Last time I checked there were only 1-2 promod servers. Beat me to it Frankly, for most of the modded servers I've played on, there really doesn't seem to much difference in gameplay from 1.04. They just have the double saber and sitting/kissing animations. Whoop-de-doo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zERoCooL2479 Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Beat me to it Frankly, for most of the modded servers I've played on, there really doesn't seem to much difference in gameplay from 1.04. They just have the double saber and sitting/kissing animations. Whoop-de-doo Umm...if your directing towards the admin mods, they do a hell of a lot more than that. If you look at the readme's for any of those mods (VA and Jedi Academy) you will see that they do more than most of the mods out there, even though they are serverside only. Also, they are the most used mods in jk2 so I wouldnt go around saying "whoop-de-doo" about them!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Originally posted by zERoCooL2479 Umm...if your directing towards the admin mods, they do a hell of a lot more than that. If you look at the readme's for any of those mods (VA and Jedi Academy) you will see that they do more than most of the mods out there, even though they are serverside only. Also, they are the most used mods in jk2 so I wouldnt go around saying "whoop-de-doo" about them!! You will note that I had a next to my whoop-de-doo. I was saying it in jest. I guess I really should have asked the question outright. What sort of things are being altered? Can someone give me a quick list? I like I say, I haven't really noticed big differences in gameplay, and I am wondering what are the differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaledDur Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 Originally posted by Prime You will note that I had a next to my whoop-de-doo. I was saying it in jest. I guess I really should have asked the question outright. What sort of things are being altered? Can someone give me a quick list? I like I say, I haven't really noticed big differences in gameplay, and I am wondering what are the differences. Omnimod, and others that have the same sorts of elements, have the two other stances that the bad guys used in SP, plus other little modifications like the jetpack and grappling hook. The thing I like most about Omnimod is the combination of the RGB sabers mod (love that) with the tons of different hilts (which quite a few mods also have), as well as new sound effects for the saber, which I think sound pretty neat, and the multi-duel + private duel (duelers dissapear and you can play in the same space). As for actual serious gameplay modifications beyond the two new stances and such, I'd have to say Promod is the only one that comes to mind, and what it does, basically, is make your aim with the corsshair directly linked to your attack strength and blocking effectiveness, thus entering another level of skill into normal gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted April 11, 2003 Author Share Posted April 11, 2003 Originally posted by JaledDur Omnimod, and others that have the same sorts of elements, have the two other stances that the bad guys used in SP, plus other little modifications like the jetpack and grappling hook. The thing I like most about Omnimod is the combination of the RGB sabers mod (love that) with the tons of different hilts (which quite a few mods also have), as well as new sound effects for the saber, which I think sound pretty neat, and the multi-duel + private duel (duelers dissapear and you can play in the same space). We have all that & much more. We already changed the specials with the 2 extra stances a bit so they are more useful & we are planning on doing something else with it as well, perhaps make it so you can do the specials in any direction (like in JK3), but so far, nothing is for sure. As for the hilts, no other hilts or hilt packs compares to Duelers. Everything goes through regulations of some kind, including the hilts. Before with the JediMod & OmniMod hilts, saber blades would begin in various positions, so some blades would be longer or shorter than others giving the users an unfair advantage. That element has been eliminated with the Duelers hilt pack. The full version of Duelers will feature at least 1 more hilt, & will be compatable with all other JediMod based mods. Originally posted by JaledDur As for actual serious gameplay modifications beyond the two new stances and such, I'd have to say Promod is the only one that comes to mind, and what it does, basically, is make your aim with the corsshair directly linked to your attack strength and blocking effectiveness, thus entering another level of skill into normal gameplay. It just depends on what it is you are looking for when you play JK2: JO. I don't play the shooter aspect of the game, hell, I'll go play Action Quake 2 before I play JK2 for the shooting aspect of the game (& I mean that literally). I play JK2 for the ability to lightsaber duel & maybe use force powers. Promod is cool, but that's not where the game is at for me. They have a good coder & I wish their mod the best of luck, but again, who plays JK2 for the shooting aspect? Some, but not most. I think that's why they are planning on using the lightsaber 70% of the time with JK3. Perhaps we can combine some of the features of Promod in with Duelers (or vice versa), because I for 1 definitely like the fact that you have to have more skill to be able to throw off missiles & whatnot, but so far (at least as far as I know), the Promod coder & the Duelers coder have no intentions of combining their work any time in the near future, but who knows what the future may bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Uh, unless JM alters the server side hilt instance, which I doubt, having different hilts shouldn't effect the saber play at all. Sure, it will LOOK different but the actual saber play would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted April 11, 2003 Author Share Posted April 11, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Uh, unless JM alters the server side hilt instance, which I doubt, having different hilts shouldn't effect the saber play at all. Sure, it will LOOK different but the actual saber play would be the same. You should checkout OmniMod again sometime. Theres a few hilts that begin in a totally different position. The Schwartz hilt starts out way before all the other hilts, it has to in order for it to look right. Part of the code was also changed so reverse grip hilts work properly as well (in Duelers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Appearances are deceiving. The server side code, which does the hit detection normally only using one hilt (kyle's) for ALL the players for determining hits and stuff. Unless the jedimod code changed this (which I doubt), the size and position of the hilt on the client side makes no difference at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted April 11, 2003 Author Share Posted April 11, 2003 From Lee Oattes, Duelers Coder Razorace is 100% correct. But, it is important to have the visuals aligned with the behaviour of the server. It is not important that they be 100% accurate, but the precision should be 100%. (That is, the match may be off a bit between damage and image, but it does need to be *consistent*). I wasn't aware of that, if I did I probably wouldn't have spent as much time on it making sure everything was in the same position (lol). Owell, it still looks alot better & there are a ton of hilts in there that I converted from SP to MP, so it will still be the best hilt pack around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Well, the current saber system is so crappy that it doesn't have to be that accurate. I've come up with a vast improvement but it's a wip since the rest of the saber system has to be upgraded to handle better collisions. Razor Ace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted April 12, 2003 Author Share Posted April 12, 2003 I must admit I am not happy with the current collision code, but it's almost just like anything else in the game, just realize that I can do anything anyone else does, so don't complain if they do it better. Ironically, I almost don't want to change it as it may upset those die hard old schoolers. I think it will be much better in JK3, I believe they are ditching the box code yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Yeah, maybe after I proofed the ghoul2 model system works better. But who knows, they seem very attached to the old system and improving the collisions makes the rest on the system look crappy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaledDur Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Originally posted by Marker0077 Promod is cool, but that's not where the game is at for me. They have a good coder & I wish their mod the best of luck, but again, who plays JK2 for the shooting aspect? Some, but not most. I think that's why they are planning on using the lightsaber 70% of the time with JK3. Wait... who's talking about guns? The saber block chance is linked to the aim. ProMod came about because saber blocking (other sabers, guns was a nice sideaffect) was not linked to the skill of the player. So it was decided that the best way to do this was make it so that you had a better chance of blocking if you had the crosshair aimed at the attacker. And I loved your mod right up until I saw the saber swing... I dont know if its just me but... yikes, that wasnt pretty. Why the heck don't we go work on getting the code for Promod from Art, and maybe have razorace do some work in those areas he's already been working in, and just bloody well make a defacto mod for JK2. The fragmentation all these oh-so-similar mods is causing in the JK community is making me sick (no, I do not consider Duelers some copy because its NOT, and it really is adding something new and exciting). I know what it feels like to have pride in something you created and not wanting to just give it up to someone else. The thing is... all that needs to be done is what you've already done plus some bug fixes. A really great mod is within our collective grasp if we can just... share a little. I don't know, I'm not living in the modding scene, I'm just looking in from the outside. If one of you has a different view on this and would like to enlighten me, you can fire me off a PM and I'll give you my contact info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 We've tried on several occasions....of sort. The problem is that there's too many talkers and not enough doers. Frankly, most of the modifications that people have done simply require very much knowledge or skill. To take JK2 "to the next level", you need to take the coding to the next level. However, it seems to me that we simply don't have that many active coders/moders that can currently operate at that level. There's probably... 1-2 - @ that level 2-3 = close to that level 3-4 = could do it with a month of work or so After that, there's simply noone that have the nessicary skillz. The end result would be having the power coders/modders doing everything and everyone else dragging them down. In addition, all the large group JK2 projects have been abandoned or not finished. However, the biggest issue is that noone is willing to compromise or work together for a common goal. Heck, noone can even agree on the common goal. For me it comes down to: 1. Good Vision 2. Good Leadership 4. Quality Work 5. Team Communication 6. Documentation 7. Dedication If "cooperating" means I'm stuck redoing CRAP because other people's work is flat out piss poor, messing with dumb@$$es, or getting in stupid fights with team members because someone wants to hack apart the game, it's not worth my time. I work on MotF because, in my opinion, it has the best vision, team, and leadership. If something else better came along, I'd jump at the chance to work on that. Until then, MotF is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Originally posted by JaledDur Why the heck don't we go work on getting the code for Promod from Art... I believe Artifex has stopped working on Promod and has given the source code to the guys doing the Clones total convertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Well, it wouldn't be hard to recreate his system anyway. It's not a complicated system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted April 28, 2003 Author Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by JaledDur Wait... who's talking about guns? The saber block chance is linked to the aim. ProMod came about because saber blocking (other sabers, guns was a nice sideaffect) was not linked to the skill of the player. So it was decided that the best way to do this was make it so that you had a better chance of blocking if you had the crosshair aimed at the attacker. This is nothing new, the blocking ability can be changed with all JediMod based mods. Originally posted by JaledDur And I loved your mod right up until I saw the saber swing... I dont know if its just me but... yikes, that wasnt pretty. The swing is no different that the base game, so I have no clue what you are referring to. If you are referring to how the stances change while swinging, that's not different from base either, just looks different. With base, you may change stances while attacking & it may show you a different colored stance, but it doesn't actually change until you stop attacking. With Duelers (or any other JediMod based mod for that matter), it's the other way around. It shows you which color stance your in right when you can start making that stances colored swings. So that's really the same thing, just looks different. There is one difference though, alot of times you may double click the saber stance cycle in the base game & it would only change stances once - that doesn't happen as much with Duelers (again, or any other JediMod based mod).. Originally posted by JaledDur I know what it feels like to have pride in something you created and not wanting to just give it up to someone else. The thing is... all that needs to be done is what you've already done plus some bug fixes. A really great mod is within our collective grasp if we can just... share a little. First off, ProMod isn't anymore, the coder gave it to the AotC:TC team, so there is no more ProMod. Secondly, the majority of the bug fixes in Duelers is for the base game - not Duelers. Thirdly, Razorace started a bug fixes thread for coders & I do what I can to get coders in there so the bug fixes from all mods can be shared in there to improve *all* mods; So this is something we are doing. If you are referring to combining mods, that's something I'll get to in a bit. Originally posted by razorace To take JK2 "to the next level", you need to take the coding to the next level. However, it seems to me that we simply don't have that many active coders/moders that can currently operate at that level. I disagree, I think your coder is only as good as your game designers. You can have the best coder in the world, without an idea to code he/she's useless. Fortunately for us, Duelers has a good coder & good game designer (/me shamelessly blows his own horn (BTW, in case you are wondering why the violin, it's because they didn't have a horn )). Originally posted by razorace The end result would be having the power coders/modders doing everything and everyone else dragging them down. In addition, all the large group JK2 projects have been abandoned or not finished. Of course, the modding scene is tough. I know that one of the reasons why JediPlus/OmniMod did so well is because he used to do so many updates (Asty made him tone it down), ie, in the media every week. Now I personally just consider that spam, but as Asty says "media is nothing but spam" & he has a point. I don't think that media is nothing but spam, but spamming attention is a good idea though. There are a variety of ways I had/have planned to get Duelers to dominate the JK2 modding scene (server & client side anyways), unfortunately because of my personal problems & the possibility this is my last 2-3 weeks, I'll be lucky if I can get Duelers Full out the door. The media aspect would take quite a bit of time as well because you have to constantly have news posted, constantly something, now I personally hate putting out a new version every week, that's just lame, but in JediPlus's case, it helped it out big time media-wise. Originally posted by razorace I work on MotF because, in my opinion, it has the best vision, team, and leadership. If something else better came along, I'd jump at the chance to work on that. Until then, MotF is it. Personally, I like MotF, I like the ability to go into the first person perspective - that's cool fun-factor-wise. The ghoul2 improvement - another winner, but aside from that, what does MotF offer? Don't get me wrong, I'm not downing your mod man (because I really do like it), I'm just trying to give you some constructive critisism. I think you need to have more features. If you already have more features, you need to start pimpin them off more because I dont think anyone knows about them. You know as well as I do, very few people RTFM, so you need something in big bold letters with a star next to each feature, etc; etc. for news posts. As far as "If something else better came along, I'd jump at the chance to work on that" goes, lets be realistic. I think someone would have to put JK3 in a mod before you were to say someone else has a better mod. Your mod is your baby, you put too much time & effort into your mod & the thing is, you know all the specifics of what it can or can not do & why it's better than others when others may not know, or just may not hold them with as high of a regard as you do (that happens to all of us at times I think though). I also think that because of the time & effort you put into your mod, it would take alot to make you consider someone elses mod a better mod when other people may not agree because of whatever reason. The more features the better, it's just 1 more reason for people to like your mod (or dislike depending upon what you code) & you never know what feature you add that makes someone go "oooo", so that's why that 1 person goes with the mod, but another person may go with the mod because of another feature, etc; etc. Some people are starting to get the idea that Duelers fixes more of the base bugs than Duelers bugs - people consider that a big plus; The new ban code - A HUGE plus. Anyways, I have recieved a few requests on the ghoul2 collision code. This is not something we are planning on fixing as of yet, there are alot of other things that Lee wants to implement before anything like that were to happen, so I always refer those people to MotF. Then the requests of combinining the 2 mods begins... You know, you told me once before that Duelers & MotF just don't share the same goals or something like that & I didn't understand what you meant by it at the time, but I think I do now. Lee is more concerned with fun-factor, & I am concerned more with being able to play seriously. Don't get me wrong, I like to have fun with it, but when you have everyone in the room being Yoda because of the model scaling - that's where I draw the line. Again DO NOT get me wrong, Lee is an incredible coder & I am lucky, as well as grateful to have him, but we just do not see certain things eye to eye, which makes us doing our own projects (Duelers Basic & Duelers Full) a necessity. BTW, in case you couldn't tell, I will be defaulting scaling to off in Duelers Full, at least until there is a speed scaling option encoded into Duelers, which will probably never happen because Lee will not go along with it no matter how many polls I take up on it. Anyways, back to the first thing, I always tell people that maybe the 2 mods would be joined in the future, but neither of us have any plans like that whatsoever. Personally, I like the idea, another good coder can certainly be useful, but I also think having 2 coders would be tough. What if the 2 of you didn't agree on the same thing, what are we going to do, Duelers Basic, Duelers Full, & Duelers Medium - forget that. Well, i've spent quite a bit of time on this post now haven't I. Time for me to go to work on Full. Ciao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 Razor, How is blatently dissing most of the coders on these forums gonna help our community?! i'm not sure you actually meant to come across the way you did, but from where I'm standing (well, sitting and typing! ) - I have to say it seems a bit out of order to me. Although, to be fair, the wording of the title of this thread - for example - doesn't help matters either really! And what is the deal with everybody wanting to put other mods down to make theirs look better? Isn't it actually possible that all mods have their own good points in their own right - and appeal to a certain sub-section of gameplay? i.e. they don't nessesarily have to be pitted against each-other in this manner... You are probably right in your apprasial of the coders in the community (from a given relative ability scale) - fair enough. And you are - without doubt - amongst the top of the pile - fair enough again. ...but - so what? What do you want - a medal? I don't see how tearing down other people's work and ability helps in anyway whatsoever. (I'm not going to ask where I stand in your little JKII coding league table - if at all, because to be perfectly honest, I really dont care...) I think your above post derives from your dislike of the fact that a lot of the most popular mods are - shall we say - 'technically inferior' to other mods such as your own. Again, fair enough, I agree with you and symphathise. But that doesn't mean these mods have no value or merit! And saying that kind of stuff you've just said doesn't help matters. As far as co-operation, like I've said before, I don't think it's nessesary or desirable to try and come up with some kind of super-mod which melds all our ideas into one. Part of the appeal of a modding community is the VARIETY of games which can result. Why can't each of our mods go in different directions and do different things? As far as I'm concerned, that's the whole point! As has been pointed out, we do co-operate to a certain degree... While I would LOVE for it to be possible for our community to somehow literally share features, I also see there are loads of problems and potential for people to just get effectively 'ripped-off', so I'm kind of resigned to this only happenning in rare, specific arrangements, which I guess is the way it has to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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