StormHammer Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Certainly it has a big effect of what the level can be like, because it has to rely on the lowest common denominator for what powers the player might have. This does pose a problem, but there should be ways around it. I suspect that the missions you can choose at certain points of the game will depend on your abilities. Perhaps you will start out with the option of choosing one of three levels. These levels will be designed to allow the player to complete them with limited abilities. Once the player has completed some of these and has grown in ability, then maybe three more levels will become available. These new levels will be designed to challenge the player to use their new skills. And the game progresses in a similar fashion. This allows the player some variety in what missions they perform, but also allow the designers to guide the player through the overall story. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me, and it would make more sense than trying to cater for a low or high level of ability across all of the missions. So you start off with a choice of 3 levels, then complete all of them before you can progress to the next 3 levels that have a higher difficulty. That would fit in more with an underlying story arc, too, so it wouldn't surprise me if they use this kind of system. As long as they include a good reason for switching around the order of the missions - like obtaining particular weapons or powers in each missions - it means you will be able to use a slightly different arsenal or set of abilities across the levels, which can introduce small changes to how you play the game on particular levels. It would not be as interesting for me if the 3 levels in your example offered similar challenges, the same weapons and the same Force powers. Then the ability to choose your mission doesn't mean as much, IMHO. As for spawning enemies, I totally agree that they have to think of more creative ways to introduce more enemies to levels. But then, I've said that in other threads, during other discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 There is sometthing rewarding about coming to an isolated encampment, wiping out everyone, then taking that last stroll to see that they are all gone. MoHAA, on the other hand, did something cool ... I can'tt remember the level, but it is in that cold weapons lab area, and you are trying to leave, and if you stand still too long more enemies appear. Hey, it is a base, it makes sense. You know you're really facing random respawn, but you deal with it because it is believable that there would be reinforcements, so you get moving ... Mike Actually, that was one of the things that ticked me off the MOST about MoHAA. I can remember a level towards the end of the game where it was so blatantly obvious that you were standing on a "trigger" patch of ground. I was running down some hedgerow road when I hear dogs chasing me from behind. Rather than run backwards and shoot, I stop, turn, and drop both dogs, only to hear two more come. So, I stay put and kill them. Then two more come. And two more, and two more, and two more. I tried walking backwards and they stopped. Then I went back to the patch of land I was on and the dogs came back. The same thing would happen with German troops in certain spots. I don't mind if enemies respawn in order to make things challenging, but I do think that they shouldn't be triggered by "event pads" on the ground and that they should come from logical locations (IE: spawn enemies at the barracks, maybe, or have them come from some inaccessible location on the map and then go through the normal path to get to me. But don't just pick an arbitrary spot and have them show up because I'm standing on it. That can become pretty transparent quickly, especially to the player who tends to take his time in getting through a map, as opposed to one who constantly runs at full speed gunning down anything in his path. I actually don't mind not having respawning enemies. At higher difficulty levels, you can just fill the levels with more enemies per encounter on the front end, or have the enemies be tougher somehow (smarter AI, though, NOT insanely accurate but rock-stupid AI). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Originally posted by Solo4114 At higher difficulty levels, you can just fill the levels with more enemies per encounter on the front end, or have the enemies be tougher somehow (smarter AI, though, NOT insanely accurate but rock-stupid AI). I usually prefer to have more challenging enemies at higher levels. Mowing down yet more weak henchmen can get boring. In JO, by the time you get near the end of the game, stormtroopers are no challenge, no matter how many come at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Well, that can work too. Sometimes it's fun to just tear through a column of stormtroopers, though. But I do agree, at higher levels I like tougher enemies. I just like a mix, say, a group of weak enemies led by a tougher enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HertogJan Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 I thought the enemies in JO were ok!! I liked pulling stormies up in the air, never had so much sadistic fun in a game for a long time. Untill I played Postal 2 that is And the reborn / shadowtroopers became harder too. But I agree that at the end, no one with a gun formed any threat to you and that is a pity, but still, the swamp and canyon levels were pretty challenging. In the swamp you couldn't use your lightsaber and forcepowers on many spotts, and in the canyon they had lots of rocketlaunchers, at-st's and turrets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted April 28, 2003 Author Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I usually prefer to have more challenging enemies at higher levels. Mowing down yet more weak henchmen can get boring. In JO, by the time you get near the end of the game, stormtroopers are no challenge, no matter how many come at you. Somewhat agree ... There are a few Shadowtroopers on Yavin near the end of JO that are a pretty good challenge - that I like. I have to mix it up a bit to get away with full shields. On the other hand, artificially making the same enemy harder to kill later I don't like. Giving them more skill at killing you, OK. At the end of RtCW, there were times I'd have to hit 3 headshots to drop the same generic soldier I'd drop with a body shot early on. That is nonsense. But Stormtroopers should always be weak and stupid. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted April 28, 2003 Author Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by Solo4114 Actually, that was one of the things that ticked me off the MOST about MoHAA. I can remember a level towards the end of the game where it was so blatantly obvious that you were standing on a "trigger" patch of ground. <snip> I don't mind if enemies respawn in order to make things challenging, but I do think that they shouldn't be triggered by "event pads" on the ground and that they should come from logical locations <snip> I do remember that as well. I was trying to cite intelligent respawn, but as you say, that same level (and others) had some stupid respawn as well. I don't think it would have been much harder for them to mix it up a bit, and have some dialogue, so you know you're being pursued - preferably from all sides - when they respawn. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by txa1265 But Stormtroopers should always be weak and stupid. True enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 IMO, the player shouldn't have "direct" direct control over the force path they take, eg. no points. Their skills should improve through use. Example: If they don't use mind trick level one, because it "sucks" then they won't get level two. Conversely, if they use their force powers a lot, they will improve faster, though I think this may cause us to all stand in a corner and force push boxes to improve our skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 AND ANOTHER THING... the levels should not have to cater to all of the different force combinations directly. They should have several paths. Eg. If you can't jump the fence, you'll have to go kill some thug for the key, which, although tougher to do, would still have the same end result: you get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txa1265 Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 Originally posted by Solbe M'ko AND ANOTHER THING... the levels should not have to cater to all of the different force combinations directly. They should have several paths. Eg. If you can't jump the fence, you'll have to go kill some thug for the key, which, although tougher to do, would still have the same end result: you get in. I could not possibly agree more with you on this point. The Yavin Canyon is a decent example - I hated the tank levels in MoHAA, but suffered through them - as I had no choice! In the Canyon, I didn't like it at first until I realized that I didn't have to make it through with a AT-ST. So in my replay, sometimes I use walkers all the way, sometimes part way, other times not at all. Choices like that greatly enhance replay value. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Yeah, that's what I mean. The maps should be more open ended in general anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mero Vilul Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Designing a level with the fact that one player may have force jump level 3 and force speed level 0, and another player goes through the single player game with jump level 0 and force speed level 3 is a pain when making those maps. But it's actually quite easy if you think about it... See the cliff? The imperial base is on the other side... IF you had force jump level 3 you could jump across and sneak into the secret base easily, otherwise you have to go around the cliff, through several hard guarded outposts... See the ventilation high up? if you had jump lvl2 or more you could enter it and witness a conversation between two guards/siths or whatever... and get some free clues... a conversation like "I put this key to the secret bonus area in this container, guard it with you life". If you had force speed level 2 or more you could outrun those damn laser turbines going on and off on the ship your currently on, if not you have to go to the generator and destroy it... Those kinds of solutions I would like to see with different force settings... Depending on what you got, there's different solutions and paths you can take in a level. If you got many of the forces you can choose one of the ways, or maybe even go through the whole map and destroy everything (like I like to do on maps, I'm sith, I know)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 That's great! But, (yes I have to be my usual critical self) the game should just be more open ended regardless of force considerations. You should be able to jump over the rock face OR jump onto the sandcrawler and get to same conclusion (or a different one) in several ways. It adds tremendously to replay value to add even one fork in the road in every map. Multiply by a dozen maps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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