Burrie Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Hey, This is a topic that I recently posted over at the official forums. Although the developers didn't post in it, I would like to hear what your thoughts are on this lil' matter... Frankly, I'm wondering wether there'll be a huge difference between the Jedi PCs(our very own PC, Bastilla, Jolee, Juhani) and the non-Jedi PCs(Carth Onassi, Canderous Ordo, HK-47, Mission Vao, Zaalbar). From what we've always seen, the Jedi have always proven to show to be a much stronger force to be reckoned with than the non-Jedi. The battle of Geonosis perfectly showed this(200 Jedi manage to put up quite a fight against a million droids), although it did "humanize" the Jedi a bit more, I think. However, I personally wonder how they'll reflect this in KotOR. I would expect that the Jedi are capable of kicking some more ass than an average character, but I certainly hope that they won't overshadow the non-Jedi PCs. Carth Onassi and Canderous Ordo already show lots of promise in character development, but it would be kinda nice if they could still be able of taking care of themselves in the later levels, and that the entire experience WON'T turn be Jedi-only in the last romp of the game. Mind you, I wouldn't want Carth Onassi to be capable of defeating a Darth Malak or Darth Bandon one-on-one by merely using his twin blaster, but I would want him to be capable of fighting a Dark Jedi if necessary. One of the latest weapon entries on the official site even seems to point out that a non-Jedi PC might be capable of fighting Dark Jedi... I present you with the following excerpt from the bladed weapons. Vibro Blade Ultrasonic vibrations make this sword exceptionally deadly, some vibro weapons are made with a rare cortosis weave that makes it resistant to lightsaber sparring damage, ensuring some measure of effectiveness against Jedi or Sith. Although I have yet to see a 'Cortosis Blade' in the established literature, I must say that it's a nice idea. For those who don't know, Cortosis is a rare ore that comes as two types... #1. When a lightsaber comes close to the Cortosis, the blade will shuts down by itself(seen in Timothy Zahn's "Vision of the Future" and Michael A. Stackpole's "I, Jedi") #2. A cortosis ore that is capable of resisting the blade of the lightsaber(seen in Obi-Wan, Jedi Outcast, New Droid Army) I suppose that if you have a character who is specialised in melee weapons, I think that he/she might be able of taking on a Dark Jedi one-on-one with one of these. I'm certainly gonna try and get Mission Vao a bit trained with swords of various kinds. Surely someone who is capable of fighting well with a sword should be able to survive a duel with a marginally trained Dark Jedi. To get to the topic at hand : I am all for non-Jedi PCs to be almost as strong as the Jedi PCs. I know that it might not be entirely realistic, but it would work better gameplay and story-wise. You might've been working hard on upgrading one of the Non-Jedi PCs when you suddenly learn that you could've done it twice as fast with a Jedi PC. Plus, I simply don't want a large part of the cast to be placed in the background, only because they aren't attuned to the Force. Their role should be just as important and equal to the rest of the party. What are your thoughts on this matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Apprentice Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I understand your thoughts. I hope the non-Jedi npc's are strong enough to make me want to take them on missions with me. But I have a strong feeling I will use them for a bit and they will get replaced by Jolee and Bastila. I think Bio is smart enough to keep things balanced though and will provide us with strong enough non-Jedi npc's that we will want to use them. The non-Jedi npc's are all very intersting also, so that is another reason I will probabaly use them also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reptille00 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I think you will want to use non jedi PC's in certain situations that some jedi might not be good at...like stealthing...computer programming..other things I cant recall but im sure there will be situations where more than 1 jedi in your party is unnecesary and you will need a droid or pistol user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boinga1 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 3 words: Remember Jango Fett. He took on obi-wan and fought mace windu well. What he can do, others can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Apprentice Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Jango fought Mace well? What I meant was that they would probabaly be more efficient in combat, but I am sure you would need to use the other characters for their skills and abilites during the game. Plus, they have some pretty interesting bio's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne- Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 In the comics,there was a invasion of the jedi temple.The reptile like attackers used shields,round kinght arthur type shields that sabers couldn't cut.This ''story' took place after ep.1.Another example,was these bounty hunters used staffs that sabers couldn't cut.(This 'story' took place right before or during ep.2.)Sh*t-forgot what they were called. Theses NPCs,the ones who aren't jedis.Can you change that?? I mean,can i give Mission vao a saber and prays she can kick a$$ with it?? Or somehow use the force?? I know its asking ALOt,but its worth a shot. And the more i read topics in this forum,i'm starting to think Burries part of the jedi counsel.....he knows alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrie Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 *snaps fingers* Jango Fett, how could I forget him. Aye, you folks are right, he pretty much managed to fight a Jedi one-on-one and lived to tell about it. Granted, he had to take away the Jedi's blade and use lots of gadgets, but I suppose that it's a very good reference point. Originally posted by TheChosenOne- Theses NPCs,the ones who aren't jedis.Can you change that?? I mean,can i give Mission vao a saber and prays she can kick a$$ with it?? Or somehow use the force?? I know its asking ALOt,but its worth a shot. I believe this was asked at the official forums at some point, and the word is that you can't "Forcify" any of the non-Jedi PCs. I suppose that you simply can't let a non-Jedi wield a lightsaber, with some message saying that the weapon is restricted only to Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty_V2.1 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 hmm, interesting point. Well the Jedi Guardian or Sith equivalent looks to be the tank of this game..I do wonder how the soldier will fare tho, a soldier class should have one of the best attack stats but Jedi Guardian has lightsaber crystal, deflection and skill bonus, not to mention the force... Don't really know how the other Jedi classes will be tho, one of the other Jedi classes sounds like it will focus more on force abilities..tho you still expect any Jedi to be an excellent fighter. Still, I would think everyone will have a place in the game..and surely there will be some kewl feats for the soldiers to keep those Sith on their toes:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark jedi 8 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 the npc's are not just average people. i mean look at the profiles. these people are the best of the best in the galaxy and could probably hold their own against a lower class dark jedi. but i suspect that against a middle to higher class trained dark jedi the non-jedi npc's would need some help. IMO i'm sure bioware will take this into account, they have done many rpg's. but i wouldn't doubt these npc's. besides the jedi, there the best the galaxy has to offer. i just cant wait to see how bioware will do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthHalo Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 maybe non-jedi pc's might be able to equip things that the jedi can not they might get some feats that jedi pc's are unable to get they can equip allmost any item with out restiction i mean past the normal one's you get for equiping it, you don't have to worry about loseing the abilty to use certain feats or skills and they are part of the plot some where in the game you might need them in combat or just talking with some one they might open up options that just jedi charcters will not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jed Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Non Jedi PCs should *for the most part* be able to defend themselves against a Jedi PC. There are certainly limits to this, you can see, but items like the mentioned cortosis blade (very clever, BTW) should even the score. I'm positive Bioware will be able to find that nice sweet spot that's right in the middle of things. Because you can't expect every Non-Jedi to get their ass kicked by a Jedi PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedi3112 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Most non-jedi-but--still-soldier PCs sound as if they have the fighting skills equal to those of Jango. Since in the movies Jango could very well hold his own against jedi, if he didn't lose his head:D (but on the other hand there was Boba screeming in mid air in ep VI). I think most of these soldiers will equal the same level of jedi as they are. And off course there may be times when you just need that high accurate shot to take somebody out before he sounds the alarm. Off coursethe non-soldiers aren't very powefull in battle, but they have other feats. Don't forget soldiers are the best in battle (armor skills and weapon skill, although maybe not lightsaber) and you do have to choose a non-jedi class at first so you can be a soldier-jedi guardian, and there are other very powefull weapons apart from the lightsaber, who probably can't be used by non-soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty_V2.1 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 well, you wouldn't send a mage into melee combat against a barbarian for comparison..the more fighter type NPCs I agree should be able survive wihtout babysitting, but the others maybe focussed on other things so their strength may not be combat.. On another note:I was a little confused at first lol, I see what u mean: PC=Playable Char, but often in rpg speak it is used to describe the Player Char and NPC as Non-player character.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toa Tahu Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 I think it's inappropriate for any guy to fight a Jedi,as a Jedi should have a fair advantage.But anyway,if he could hold his own,shame to the Jedi. Anyway,characters CAN hold their own against the Jedi...not for long. :evillaugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne- Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 I agree...the jedis are SUPPOSED to be the best in the galaxy.No one,not even a gunfighter should be able to stop them.If your stuck fighting other jedis,for whatever reason,maybe your crew can lay down fire so you can escape,or they could do something else while you go one-on-one with the sith/jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrie Posted May 8, 2003 Author Share Posted May 8, 2003 the npc's are not just average people. i mean look at the profiles. these people are the best of the best in the galaxy and could probably hold their own against a lower class dark jedi. but i suspect that against a middle to higher class trained dark jedi the non-jedi npc's would need some help. IMO Good point... these are main characters after all, or at the very least supporting cast. These types tend to be a bit lucky when facing the impossible odds well, you wouldn't send a mage into melee combat against a barbarian for comparison..the more fighter type NPCs I agree should be able survive wihtout babysitting, but the others maybe focussed on other things so their strength may not be combat.. I'm not quite sure, is the mage the Jedi Knight and the barbarian a simple fighter in your example? If so, I would like to point out that the Jedi are a bit stronger than the average mage... they are capable of wielding powerful magic, and are awesome melee fighters as well... On another note:I was a little confused at first lol, I see what u mean: PC=Playable Char, but often in rpg speak it is used to describe the Player Char and NPC as Non-player character.. D'oh, mistake on my part. I think it's inappropriate for any guy to fight a Jedi,as a Jedi should have a fair advantage.But anyway,if he could hold his own,shame to the Jedi. Anyway,characters CAN hold their own against the Jedi...not for long. :evillaugh: I agree...the jedis are SUPPOSED to be the best in the galaxy.No one,not even a gunfighter should be able to stop them.If your stuck fighting other jedis,for whatever reason,maybe your crew can lay down fire so you can escape,or they could do something else while you go one-on-one with the sith/jedi. To be honest, this is where I personally think that Bioware should cross the line, and sacrifice a bit of the realism for gameplay and story. Yes, Jedi are supposed to be far much greater in terms of combat, intelligence, and various abilities, but what fun does that make it for the non-Jedi PCs? We already have 4 Jedi in a party of 10, and granted, we probably won't have them all available all the time. Still, for me, the point is that I really hope that the game won't turn in a Jedi-only experience once Force Powers become the norm. Just look at Jedi Outcast... the game starts out pretty much mercenary style, but once Kyle gets his lightsaber and his Force powers begin to grow... well, so long mercenary style and hullo Jedi Powers. The game was helluva a lot fun, but about 3/4rd of the game could and probably has only been played with the lightsaber. The developers made some interesting weapons, but I personally never really had the chance to try it out, because the lightsaber and the Force was helluva a lot stronger than all the weapons combined, most players(including me) resorted to using the lightsaber and the Force Powers to complete the game. Mayhaps use the sniper rifle every now and then to take care of those (censored) Rodian Snipers, but all the other weapons were neglected. And I'm not saying that it was a bad thing in Jedi Outcast. In fact, the game is prolly one of the most entertaining games from last year because of the excellent lightsaber and the Force Powers. And it also worked in that game, because the story only revolved around Kyle Katarn. However, Knights of the Old Republic seems to have a far bigger cast than Jedi Outcast, and there are various playable characters whom might lose all their worth once the Jedi Knights arrive if they keep things realistic. There are bound to be several Dark Jedi near the ending, and I simply want the non-Jedi to have an activate part there as well, and not be replaced by a group of Jedi. I might be overreacting a bit to this... in the end, it's more about a personal beef that I have with the WEG D6 RPG, and various stories I've heard throughout SW RPG forums... and that is the problem that a Jedi tends to be munchkin. Basically, this means that he wields the most awesome powers, is capable of taking on an entire legion with a sweat, but also basically overshadows all the other players as well. Please note that I have full faith in Bioware that they'll find a way to handle this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne- Posted May 9, 2003 Share Posted May 9, 2003 Burrie,i see your point ol'wise one,but only if it makes sense.A jedi should be able to deflect a laser shot,but not against a rocket launcher.Jango Fett killed a jedi in Ep.2,so did some of those droids.Jango got one good shot,then killed off that jedi.Jedis aren't perfect,nor are sith,Everyone makes mistakes.It might be about timing,or if i use the force push on a sith and he falls down,then my wookie should be able to blast his robe wearin ass with his crossbow on the ground,or behind.(Ed.note-Ok,ok...i;m not too sure if the sith wear robes in this game) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty_V2.1 Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 I'm not quite sure, is the mage the Jedi Knight and the barbarian a simple fighter in your example? If so, I would like to point out that the Jedi are a bit stronger than the average mage... they are capable of wielding powerful magic, and are awesome melee fighters as well... Sorry, I was a tad vague there. Well I was meaning in terms of NWN or other Dungeons&Dragons CRPGs. I think Bob or Casey Hudson over at the official boards compared a Jedi Guardian to a Barbarian in D&D since they are both amongst the best melee fighters. What I was thinking was the mage(in D&D) is weak in both hit points and with weapons..so you wouldn't tell him to go and fight a Barbarian(who is an excellent melee fighter) in plain melee combat.. A mage is not designed for fighting but is more a walking artillery platform who sits at the back. So in KOTOR the Scoundrel (I think) is the 'weakest' in straight combat, so you wouldn't tell him to go head to head with a Sith who's saber skills should chop him/her to ribbons.. So overall what I mean is, well that I agree with you, but also I would hope that the various non-jedi-NPC char-classes would be played different ways with different partys because of the skill variations..they should be as effective as a Jedi-only-party, but it would be played with different style/tactics to that of a Jedi-only-party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber_Saber Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 The "Scoundrel" is the in-between class, I'm pretty sure. (I think "Thief" is the weakest with weapons or hit points) But even a scoundrel in a fight with a Jedi is still probably gunna get whupped. (a.k.a, Han vs. Vader on Bespin.) Maybe a couple scoundrels could pull tactical withdrawal (Cover fire and then haul ass). A soldier should be able to perform a tactical withdrawal, or if he's really good (And the Jedi is kinda bad as in Jango vs. that one Jedi in AOTC- that Jedi was more of a consular) kill the Jedi. Two good or excellent soldier should hold their own (in other words, not need to retereat, but not really getting anywhere either) or once again, kill the Jedi (For most of these, I'm making the Jedi medium-power. Not too weak, but not really strong, either. A strong Jedi, like Bandon or Malak, and you'll need Jedi in your party.). Three good or excellent soldiers vs. a Jedi should be able to take him out, especially if they split up and take different sides. Now, for a thief vs. a Jedi, you'd just want to run like hell. (Unless you've got the cortosis blade, but they've still good premonition, and probably some push/pull ability.) Two thieves should pull a withdrawal, and three should just barely hold their own, or if it's a weak Jedi, kill them. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Apprentice Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 Originally posted by Uber_Saber Three good or excellent soldiers vs. a Jedi should be able to take him out, especially if they split up and take different sides. Luke vs. Jabba's henchmen. He wasn't even that strong at the moment and still handled them all fairly well. Realistically (if SW can be realistic) Jedi are pretty much overpowering in the movies. As a general, there are exceptions though. I hope they made non-Jedi npc's more powerful and didn't lessen the power of the Jedi npc's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimaster Posted May 11, 2003 Share Posted May 11, 2003 I believe that the NPC's would be able to at least hold their own long enough for a) you to help them, b) another NPC to help them, or c) they exhaust themselves and die. They aren't just going to fall over dead, they will put up at least a small fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne- Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Maybe they can fix the ebony hawk or find someone or do something while you fight off the ''bad guys'.I wouldn't mind if that wookie laid down some cover fire while we escape or fight.And heres another question...do the NPCs get along?? I mean,if i have batista in my group and switch her with mission vao(sorry B fans,its just a example)will that cause problems? Ok,if my crew are being chased and i re-run into batista(after releasing her from my group)and ask her for help or something,will she or would she refuse cause of my earlier choice.Maybe have some negative words toward mission vao??? I know its a game and not a soap opera,but i was just thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Apprentice Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Originally posted by TheChosenOne- Maybe they can fix the ebony hawk or find someone or do something And then they'll work on the ivory droids. I don't think you'll have to worry about the non-Jedi npc's being pansies. They should be able to hold their own ground. I think it would be highly advisable to have a Jedi in your party though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billymadison Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 i belive the non jedi npc's should be able to hold there own jedi are not all powerful amidala says it her self in episode 2. also i belive everytime anpc dies in this game u will have to go all the way bak to the ebon hawk to revive them it would suck if u ran in to a group of dark jedi and 2 of ur npcs die u have to run bak to the hawk then bak to where u fought and bak to the hawk if they die again. that would take up too much time. and rember alot of these npcs fought in the pervious war against malaks partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 If a member of your party dies in battle they'll be revived directly after the battle(with lower health). Kind of like Final Fantasy where they are revived with 1 hp. Also I think Amidala meant that Jedi have their limits. Anakin was talking about stopping people from dieing when she said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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