Cosmos Jack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Breton CJ: The problem is that this wasn't just some innocent and fun experience. The girls never chose this, and it is fully illegal. Actually they did. They choice to show up for it. All forms of hazing are illegal, and relatively unpleasant your point? Originally posted by Breton What would you think if some stranger threw you into a back alley and putting toxic paint in your mouth, beating you with blunt objects, kicking you, forcing feces down your throat, covering you in mud, covering you in feces, and crapping on you, plus shoving pig testicles down your throat, and even ripping out some hair. Sounds like an episode of "Fear Factor" to me. Yes that's all very horrible terrible stuff there. Especially if you were thrown in an alley, but if you show up for it that's another matter. I never had any pig testicles shoved down my throat, and my hair was too short to rip out. I guess I don't understand, because I'm missing 2 key items. I read the article anyway and I think you adding some things if not wup wup... Originally posted by Breton Would you really think of this as a good "learning experience"? Wouldn't it be a big deal? Should you just forget about it and move on? Yep I would say don't walk down allies anymore, or show up for organized hazing events. Originally posted by Breton I am asking you a question here. Did that answer it ? Originally posted by ShockV1.89 The problem is that this, I believe, was a public school. These girls really didnt have much choice but join. There is no school mandate that states you have to go to a powder puff game and get hazed to be a senior. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle [sarcasm]And I have no sympathy for the 9/11 victims. I mean, they chose to go into the WTC, right?[/sarcasm] See my point? There is a huge difference between showing up for work and getting killed, and showing up for a scheduled hazing event, and getting hazed. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle I agree with Breton, CJ. He asked a good question that I suggest you answer. that's just silly. I can tell none of you really seem to understand what hazing is. That's well and all, but like I said before. Don't expect me to change my point of view. The little event here while bad could have been much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 The little event here while bad could have been much worse. This is true. But it also could have been much better. This attitude of "Well, you knew you were going to be hazed so it's your own fault" really doesnt hold water. It is true that it is partially the students fault for attending the event. But does that absolve the "hazers" of all blame? Does the fact that the students came to them make it allright? I'll give an analogy: I walk through Central Park at 2 in the morning and get mugged and beaten and left for dead. True, I was stupid for doing this and walked right into it, but does that make it allright for my attackers to do this? Perhaps a better solution would be to prevent it from happening at all, rather than just saying "Its your fault for going there!" Yes, but it's also their fault for doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by ShockV1.89 Perhaps a better solution would be to prevent it from happening at all, rather than just saying "Its your fault for going there!" Yes, but it's also their fault for doing it. I do agree with making it impossible for things like that to happen. Things like powder puff games or whatever are pointless in school. They don't serve any logical purpose, and they don't in the military either. I never said I agreed with hazing, but I am a firm believer in knowing what you're getting yourself into. I never do anything without looking it up first, and seeing what it's about. I wouldn't take a walk in central park for instance until I read up on it. "ShockV1.89" Also thank you for not making some rude and silly remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I have to agree with Cosmos on some of this... the other girls have to accept some responsibity on this. The ones who went to the powder puff game knowing that they would get hazed. Yes, it did get out of hand...but they should be punished for participating in this event as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 "ShockV1.89" Also thank you for not making some rude and silly remark. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Originally posted by ShockV1.89 Huh? Shock, you have to understand. If everyone acted rudely, noone would notice him. He just doesn't want the attention taken from him, that's all . This is what I tried to post last night before the half-a*sed attempt of an ISP (SBC Yahoo!) broke down, which basically happens every night. Actually they did. They choice to show up for it. All forms of hazing are illegal, and relatively unpleasant your point? For, what, the third time? They expected to be mildly hazed in a fun way and got this. There's a huge difference between showing up for getting paint sprayed on you and getting all those girls got. They never showed up for any of that stuff described above. For the fifth time. Yes, they are both hazings, so? Here are some better analogies: You work as a petsitter and advertise that you take care of cats, and you hear that you are to take care of a "slightly aggressive feline" for the weekend. You expect a cat, but instead, you get a tiger, and it eats half your foot. But sure, nobody should have sympathy for you because "she expected a feline, right"? Right, sure, duh. Except while they are both felines, cats and tigers are pretty different. Or a boat voulentarily going into a light breeze, expecting winds, and instead getting a hurricane and almost sinking. They're both winds, but two very different things. You could say you have no feelings for the crew of that ship for almost dying because "they expected the wind to be blowing". A hand grenade and the Hiroshima bomb are both explosives, still different things. Very different things. Sounds like an episode of "Fear Factor" to me. Yes that's all very horrible terrible stuff there. Especially if you were thrown in an alley, but if you show up for it that's another matter. I never had any pig testicles shoved down my throat, and my hair was too short to rip out. I guess I don't understand, because I'm missing 2 key items. I read the article anyway and I think you adding some things if not wup wup... No, he's not "adding some things". That's actual stuff that happened, it's just not covered in the article. He's quoting. How you cannot have sympathy for someone who's going trough all that is beyond me. And for the upteenth time, they never saw it coming for them. Next you'll be feeling no sympathy for them because they "should have known", right? I can so see that coming.. There is no school mandate that states you have to go to a powder puff game and get hazed to be a senior. There may, however, be mandates that say you have to go to powder puff games. There is a huge difference between showing up for work and getting killed, and showing up for a scheduled hazing event, and getting hazed. For the sixth time, you can't choose to show up for something you don't even know about, can you? They never knew they were going to have to swallow pig testicles, thus, they cannot have chosen that. They showed up for something and got something else. And my argument does hold true: The people in 9/11 showed up for work expecting a fire risk, as there are fire risks in all buildings. The expected that there might be a fire that day, and they got a fire, didn't they? A rather big one that killed 2500 people and levelled the buildings, but hey, they expected a fire! Those 2500+ people chose to die. If they didn't want to be in a fire, they should have be in a fire-proof shelter! Look, point is, nobody but you care if they are the same definition. They are completely.. as I proved above. I can tell none of you really seem to understand what hazing is. That's well and all, but like I said before. Don't expect me to change my point of view. The little event here while bad could have been much worse. And you frankly don't seem to understand what really happened. You're like "if it's hazing, it's okay, if it isn't, then screw it", right? Well, here are news for you: There's always something worse than what you're going trough. But you just cannot have that attitude. I would pity someone whose wrist was broken, even though it's a light injury compared to breaking your arm, for example. Likewise, I pity the 9/11 victims, although the horrors of 9/11 were nothing compared to WW II. And finally: It's impossible to "walk it off" when your foot breaks, so don't go there. Just because your sarge back then was a moron doesn't have to mean you have to be one here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Shock, you have to understand. If everyone acted rudely, noone would notice him. He just doesn't want the attention taken from him, that's all . No it's just really arrogant of you to think you rate to make demands to me that's all. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Here are some better analogies: You work as a petsitter and advertise that you take care of cats, and you hear that you are to take care of a "slightly aggressive feline" for the weekend. You expect a cat, but instead, you get a tiger, and it eats half your foot. But sure, nobody should have sympathy for you because "she expected a feline, right"? Right, sure, duh. Except while they are both felines, cats and tigers are pretty different. Well if you excepted to take care of it when it got there and you saw it was a tiger you have the choice to refuse to take it. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Or a boat voulentarily going into a light breeze, expecting winds, and instead getting a hurricane and almost sinking. They're both winds, but two very different things. You could say you have no feelings for the crew of that ship for almost dying because "they expected the wind to be blowing". If you are a true sailor you understand the weather and you also know the risks involved every time you sail out. Anyone that sails knows the weather can change very rapidly. So both your analogies are pore examples. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle No, he's not "adding some things". That's actual stuff that happened, it's just not covered in the article. He's quoting. Like I said "wup wup". Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle How you cannot have sympathy for someone who's going trough all that is beyond me. Basically because I have been threw similar if not worse things so it really doesn't register to me especially if they didn't have to. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle There may, however, be mandates that say you have to go to powder puff games. Powder puff games are as required as attending Prom or Graduation you don't have to do any of them. I went the day after graduation and picked up my diploma. I would think that would be more important than a powder puff game or whatever. If it's required care to show me proof? Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle For the sixth time, you can't choose to show up for something you don't even know about, can you? They never knew they were going to have to swallow pig testicles, thus, they cannot have chosen that. They showed up for something and got something else. Well they should have left, ran away, or whatever they felt they had to do if they didn't want to participate. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle And my argument does hold true: The people in 9/11 showed up for work expecting a fire risk, as there are fire risks in all buildings. The expected that there might be a fire that day, and they got a fire, didn't they? A rather big one that killed 2500 people and levelled the buildings, but hey, they expected a fire! Those 2500+ people chose to die. If they didn't want to be in a fire, they should have be in a fire-proof shelter! Again a pore and unrelated example vastly inaccurate. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Look, point is, nobody but you care if they are the same definition. They are completely.. as I proved above. What have you proved except you have a opinion? Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle And you frankly don't seem to understand what really happened. I understand what hazing is. Been there, done that, and got the T-shirt have you? Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle And finally: It's impossible to "walk it off" when your foot breaks, so don't go there. Just because your sarge back then was a moron doesn't have to mean you have to be one here. Well I walked it off for a good week. I ran on it all week. I took a P.T. test and passed. It's all in the head. I did what I needed to do. I didn't go to the hospital tell I was in agonizing pain every time I stepped. I did my job and that's what matters. I know a guy that went threw 40 hours of field training with a cracked vertebra in his neck. Have you ever had to perform under real pain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Well they should have left, ran away, or whatever they felt they had to do if they didn't want to participate. So when they realized that they were really in for (eating feces, etc.) they had a choice to leave, but didn't? So those girls who were forced to eat testicles could have said "okay, enough, let me go", and they would have been released and allowed to go home? Interesting. You simply have to show me where you found that, because the article says they were forced to do it, and didn't realize what they were in for until it was too late ...Or are you just throwing around assumptions and guesses? Well if you excepted to take care of it when it got there and you saw it was a tiger you have the choice to refuse to take it. Not if it's too late to refuse to accept it by the time you see it's a tiger. What if it's uncaged on you just as you open the door, before you can say a word? What have you proved except you have a opinion? That light breezes and hurricanes are vastly different are, I'm afraid, estibilished fact. And well, I've been on a boat. Countless times. Kept a personal log, learned how to handle MOB situations and actually handled one, and learned how to tell True North from looking at the sun. Here are two facts: 1. Hurricanes and storms can come out of nowhere. There can be a light breeze and perfectly clear weather one minute and only four hours later, it's a full-fledged hurricane like the one that ripped the roof of that barn at home and killed this kid by throwing a swing-set in his head. 2. You can be far away from port when you realize the weather is going to get windy. Did you ever see the perfect storm? If you had sympathy for the brave sailors aboard Andrea Gail, why don't you have sympathy for these girls? 3. You can be at sea and not be, as you quote, a "true sailor". What if you don't know there might be a hurricane and that weather changes so fast? What then? Point is, those girls didn't know what they were walking into. How could they choose to do something in advance that they didn't know about? If they knew the hazing would be that bad, they wouldn't have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle So when they realized that they were really in for (eating feces, etc.) they had a choice to leave, but didn't? So those girls who were forced to eat testicles could have said "okay, enough, let me go", and they would have been released and allowed to go home? Interesting. You simply have to show me where you found that, because the article says they were forced to do it, and didn't realize what they were in for until it was too late ...Or are you just throwing around assumptions and guesses? Hmm OH WELL ! as for throwing around assumptions and guesses you do that a lot why does it matter if I do it. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Not if it's too late to refuse to accept it by the time you see it's a tiger. What if it's uncaged on you just as you open the door, before you can say a word? Than someone broke the law on handling dangerous animals. There are certain requirements in the handling and transporting of such animals. The person excepting to take care of one should have been more careful on who they except animals from. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle That light breezes and hurricanes are vastly different are, I'm afraid, estibilished fact. And well, I've been on a boat. Countless times. Kept a personal log, learned how to handle MOB situations and actually handled one, and learned how to tell True North from looking at the sun. Here are two facts: 1. Hurricanes and storms can come out of nowhere. There can be a light breeze and perfectly clear weather one minute and only four hours later, it's a full-fledged hurricane like the one that ripped the roof of that barn at home and killed this kid by throwing a swing-set in his head. Hmm ok so your point is? Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle 2. You can be far away from port when you realize the weather is going to get windy. Did you ever see the perfect storm? If you had sympathy for the brave sailors aboard Andrea Gail, why don't you have sympathy for these girls? I don't have sympathy for people dyeing while doing something they choose to do. Maybe honer them, but that is all. If I choose to become a cop and I get killed in the line of duty while doing a job I knew the risks off. Why should anyone have sympathy? I'm not much for sympathy I don't want it and I don't give it. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle 3. You can be at sea and not be, as you quote, a "true sailor". What if you don't know there might be a hurricane and that weather changes so fast? What then? Than you shouldn't be out there, because you're incompetent. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Point is, those girls didn't know what they were walking into. How could they choose to do something in advance that they didn't know about? If they knew the hazing would be that bad, they wouldn't have gone. The point to me is they went to get hazed and they learned what hazing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Hmm OH WELL ! as for throwing around assumptions and guesses you do that a lot why does it matter if I do it. I'm glad you care about what you type. Than someone broke the law on handling dangerous animals. There are certain requirements in the handling and transporting of such animals. The person excepting to take care of one should have been more careful on who they except animals from. May I remind you that several laws were also broken during this hazing. Okay, to restate my point (again): Yes, you should have been more careful, maybe, but the thing is, what are the odds that someone would give you a tiger anyway? If this tiger does kill you, I'd have sympathy for you. Why? Because you didn't know. You were innocent, simple as that. You didn't choose the tiger. To those girls, odds were slim that something like that would happen, because they didn't know about it in the first place. And they learned next to nothing about college hazings, as 99% of those hazings are innocent. You know what, it's so obvious that you don't care less, so I won't bother discussing this more with you. That doesn't have to mean I admit I'm wrong, before you start ranting about that. If we could have had a serious discussion, I'd have been glad to. But sadly, you don't seem to be able to do that. Farewell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle To those girls, odds were slim that something like that would happen, because they didn't know about it in the first place. And they learned next to nothing about college hazings, as 99% of those hazings are innocent. It was a high school girl's football game. Get your facts straight if your going to argue. Real hazing isn't pleasant, isn't fun, and isn't innocent anything that is isn't hazing. Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle You know what, it's so obvious that you don't care less, so I won't bother discussing this more with you. That doesn't have to mean I admit I'm wrong, before you start ranting about that. If we could have had a serious discussion, I'd have been glad to. But sadly, you don't seem to be able to do that. Farewell. There has been no serious discussing of the thread for several posts now. I stated my opinion a long time ago. That is how I felt about it then and that's how I feel about it know. All anyone has done is make the same arguments over and over with no real purpose. My opinion in this matter isn't really up for debate. I said it was wrong already once, and that it should be prevented more in the future. There isn't much more I can give on this. That's just the way it is. As for you giveing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munik Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 No one here is condoning hazing. It is bad in all its forms. Probaly illegal in almost all it's forms as well. With that said, the best excuse these girls could have is that they have no idea, no clue as to what the word "hazing" means. Because they knew they were going to a hazing event, so they must have not known what that word meant. If I held an annual gunshot wound event for all would be seniors, and for the two previous years I just threw paint at them, but this year I gave them all gunshot wounds, could they really say they thought that they were only gonna get a mild gunshot wound? Any time that I may have been hazed I was scared. Because I know that there have been times during hazings when other people have died. I know hazings are a bad thing, and in know way condone them, or ever voluntarily participated in them. You want to know why hazings are a bad thing? Because not only do they serve no purpose at all, except to humiliate and cause physical harm, they can escalate into very bad things. As we see here. So, everyone who participated in this event is to blame, and all participation was entirely voluntary. Everyone who showed up was continuing an annual hazing event that should never had started in the first place. Those girls who recieved the hazings are not to blame for the bad things that happened to them, but they are to blame for voluntarily participating in a hazing. Not only is that one of the most stupidest things you can do of your own free will, they are encouraging those events by participating. I don't have compassion for everyone on this planet, I am not mother theressa. These girls chose to go to a bad thing, to participate in the hazing. It was bad for them. That's what a hazing is. I would have gladly ate pig balls, or had crap thrown on me, instead of recieving some of the worst beatings of my life. They did get a mild hazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 16, 2003 Author Share Posted May 16, 2003 Mild hazing? I don't know, but one girl had to get sewn back together with 10 stitches. It's easy to say those girls were gullible, but I doubt they knew what they were going into. They probably expected to be teased a bit, and had no idea how horrible this hazing would be. They were naive, gullible high school teenage girls, but at least now they know what a real hazing is like. They were just kids, after all. But what irks me is that the public gets all furious from this incident. No doubt Munik and Jack has seen hazings far worse than this, but as the media placed this story in the spotlight, they're willfully ignoring all the hazings taking place elsewhere, which makes this one pale in comparison. It's like they're feeding the public a mere snippet of reality, and when this matter has been dealt with, we can just close the book and pretend everything's alright again. But it wont change. If parents knew what hazings their innocent little sons had to go through later in their life, there'd be an even bigger outcry. Some of you may already know by now that the parents of the kids doing the HAZING are suing against getting them expelled. While it isn't the school's business as it didn't take place during school time or on school ground, I can easily understand why they did it. I wouldn't like to have such idiots running around in my school either. EDIT: and if I see any more personal attacks, I'll delete the post, regardless of who started it. Stop it, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 What "munik" said is pretty much along the lines of how I feel. I really hate to pigy back on what "munik" said, but he said it alot better than I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfnshannon Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 I think those girls who did the hazing...should be banned from school activities. Those school activities...such as prom...graduation ceremonies are considered a reward/privledge. I do not think that girls that forced other girls to eat feces should be rewarded! However, the school had ways of finding out that there was this game that was going to be held. Does anyone know if the school warned against participating in this game and if they said they would expel those that participated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais But what irks me is that the public gets all furious from this incident. No doubt Munik and Jack has seen hazings far worse than this, but as the media placed this story in the spotlight, they're willfully ignoring all the hazings taking place elsewhere, which makes this one pale in comparison. It's like they're feeding the public a mere snippet of reality, and when this matter has been dealt with, we just can close the book and pretend everything's alright again. Well in the past there has been stories about the military and it's brand of hazing for just about anything you can think off. Since then the higher ups in the branches have been cracking down on it. Anyone accused of hazing in my old Battalion were supposed to be subject to a court marshal, lose of rank, and pay, however; most new marines that reported hazing were treated as liars trying to fry their overbearing NCOs that were in charge of them. It kind of turned into a rape situation. Like some girls cry rape, because they want to get back at a guy. Some because they were actually raped. Nobody wanted to bust down a otherwise good marine without actual evidence. Also there was the problem of being labeled the wimp in the Platoon. "Oh there is Pvt Pus@y over there he got Cpl Hard A@S busted down." Nobody in a infantry PLT wants to be labeled as week. In my hole 4 years I know of 2 reported hazings in my BN. Only one was charged and punished. I lost count of the number of hazings that went unnoticed and never reported. Hazing can also be used as a punishment rather than doing paper work and getting someone busted down. They would do some silly thing or be the PLT bit@h for a few weeks. I have gave a few Marines the choice of what they would rather do myself a few times. I personally would rather be hazed in some way than busted down in rank, loose money, and privileges. That's stuff takes time to earn and is hard to get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 I was hazed once... I was a referee at a local paintball field, and it was an informal tradition to give the new ref a cup, make him strip down to his boxers, and have him try to take on the entire staff in a hyperball arena. Man, that sucked. But I agreed to it, knew what I was getting into. I got big respect for it after, too. I guess you need to weigh whether or not it's worth it. I mean, I didnt have to do it, but not doing it would have made me far less part of the team. I think maybe those girls simply werent aware of the intensity of hazing they were going to get. Me, I knew what I was getting into. I knew I was gonna get all ****ed up from that. But maybe these girls were expecting something a little more tame? In the video I saw of the hazing (dont know if it was the same incident), they had a few girls pinned down on the ground and were punching them in the back and sides while pouring stuff on them. They could not have gotten away if they wanted to. It looked more like assault and battery than a haze. The moment you take away a persons right to escape is the moment it becomes serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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