Republic Units for SWGB2 - Poll

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu, please explain the following outlandish statements:

 

1) survivability of melee Wookiee < survivability of ranged Wookiee

 

2) cost of melee Wookiee > cost of ranged Wookiee

 

As far as I can see, for number 1 they should be equal. The ability for the enemy to kill you is independent of what type of weapon you have. The Wookiee is just as likely to get shot if he has a ranged weapon himself or not. In fact, if anything the melee Wookiee will have greater survivability, as they might have armour that the ranged Wookiee would not have.

 

Number 2 also seems bizarre to me. Equipping a Wookiee with two big cutting devices is far cheaper than giving them a bowcaster, which requires more complex manufacturing and even importing parts from off-world.

[CorranSec]

We seem to be straying a little from the topic here. Let me point something out to you, Windu.

This is a game!

Thus, such statements as 'survivability of monkey-wielding Wookiee>cost of stupidly expensive Wookiee" are really unecessary. Vostok's are helpful, as they give us a solid grounding in known SW fact, but they are only a guide.

 

So, in GB2, this is how it's going to work.

The 'basic' Wookiee trooper (and by basic I mean first available, like a Footman, Zealot or Trooper Recruit) is melee, in that it does not attack from range. This makes sense because of what has been shown in realism terms, and it also makes sense in that it fits with the generally accepted character of the Wookiees and will add to the uniqueness of the civ.

This melee Wookiee will be sensible to use in gameplay terms too. Although it can be cut down by ranged fire, if it can close ranks with the enemy it can inflict great damage.

So, the way I see it in balance terms, this Wookiee has:

- Larger health/armour than the average ranged trooper (from other/same civs)

- Larger damage + faster attack than the average ranged trooper

- Same speed

- Possible lesser cost

 

If anyone believes this is underpowered/overpowered, please tell me. I just hope that this serves as an example that things are changable because this is a a game.

[Sithmaster_821]

I still ascertain that you guys are arguing semantics. There is no such thing as a "basic" trooper. There will be a melee trooper and a ranged trooper and you can fill out your army with whatever proportions you'd like. There really isn't a set standard unit to be supported by other set auxillaury units. A player is free to make what ever unit they desire the standard unit of their army, and a game should be balanced in a way such that one unit would be better fitted than the other (unless they cost substantially more, like trying to make assault mechs the standard unit in your army, or they are designed to be support units, like medics).

[lukeiamyourdad]

Sith sith now now...Sith...would you...shut up about that...as bad as it seems this argument against windu makes this thread the most lively of all this forum...so please let us continue this possibly pointless debate...for the sake of the forum...

[Sithmaster_821]

Fine, fine, continue with your endless arguments, but I'm warning you I've been there done that...

[lukeiamyourdad]

Those were the old times man. The time when pointless debates weren't needed to save the forum.

[Sithmaster_821]

Yeah, as long as it doesn't turn into a one-sided flame war do to stubbornness...

[CorranSec]

Sith:

Perhaps the term 'basic' is indeed a misnomer, but if you want to propose another name, feel free to do so.

What I call a 'basic' unit is the first military unit available to the civilisation (thus, Workers don't count). Examples from other games include the Zerg Zergling, Egyptian Spearman, Rebel Trooper Recruit, Orc Grunt, and so on.

In all of these games, the unit I mentioned above is the first unit available- thus it is their 'basic' unit. It's the unit that generally ends up being most used, and could formsthe backbone of the army.

I agree that as you said, it's entirely up to players which unit they use the most. I could make Ultralisks the backbone of my Zerg army and Mercenaries the Egyptian unit I use the most. But they are quite simply not the Zerg or Egyptian 'basic' units.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - the sirvivability is not independant of what weapon they are using. It is far easier to kill someone with an Assault Rifle than it is with a knife. The reason survivability changes is because the melee units would be rushing into incoming fire, whereas the ranged units could stand-off and fire from cover, or in a prone position. Also, there is more to melee combat than knowing how to hunt. As i said, it would cost more to train a wookiee to be silent and attack with bladed weapons while avoiding fire than it would be to give them a bowcaster.

 

The notion of having the basic infantry unit as a melee unit (and i agree with Corran's definition of a 'basic' unit) would still work, but i think it would work better with the Hutts with their Gamorean Guards rather than Wookiees.

[lukeiamyourdad]

You forgot that wookiees are born to fight with their paws and huge physical capabilities thus reducing their cost. Being silent and good hunters are part of their instinct. It's like a lion who doesn't learn to hunt since its childhood...he will never pick up a rifle and shoot down some gazelle with it.

Thus being their instinct to hunt and kill using melee weapons or paws is part of their natural capabilities. It does not cost more to train him.

 

Note: How can a Gammorean Guard be a better melee unit then a wookiee? wookiees are stronger I think...

[Admiral Vostok]

Firstly, I agree with Corran's definition of 'basic trooper' but the fact that Corran cited the Zerg Zergling as the basic Zerg unit got me thinking. While the Zergling is the first available, I would say the Hydralisk is the most significant trooper of the Zerg. They feature in all the Zerg end screens and are seen as the 'primary' Zerg unit. With this in mind, I thought of the Confederacy: the same can be said of the Super Battle Droid. Although it is less numerous than and available after the standard Battle Droid, it really defines the Confederacy. So what you must understand Windu, is that although the 'basic trooper' is the first available military unit, it needn't be the most numerous in a full army, or even the unit most readily identifiable with the civ. Again this can apply to the Wookiees: while their 'basic' trooper is the Melee Wookiee, perhaps their most numerous unit (and since Chewie carries a bowcaster, the most identifiable with the civ) is the ranged Wookiee. So their Melee Wookiee is available first, requiring only a set of knives and basic training beyond their natural combat prowess, while the more expensive and better trained Bowcaster Wookiees are the civ's 'primary' trooper.

 

NOW, since Windu insists on using false arguments to refute my realism claims, which he will no doubt do to the above, I'll also provide a Gameplay argument, for as Corran said it is a game. The basic trooper for the Wookiee's should be a melee unit on the simple premise that it will make the Wookiees different to other races. They are the only race who would concievably have a melee trooper as a basic trooper, so they shall. Let's also not forget that while other basic troopers may be ranged, their weapon ranges won't necessarily be the same: the Gungan armed only with a sling and boomas will have a much shorter range than the Clone Trooper with his specialist long-barrelled blaster rifle. So a basic Melee Wookiee really is the best way to go.

[Sithmaster_821]

What I call a 'basic' unit is the first military unit available to the civilisation

Yeah, but most of the time, there isn't just one unit available first. In most games now a days, you can get two or 3 units initially (or whenever the first militayr units are available). And other times the first military unit available wouldn't be considered any where near basic, i.e. Eggie priests/mercs.

 

"Basic" units are esssentially arbitrary

[lukeiamyourdad]

I think the term ''basic trooper'' means more like the most used military unit in this early stage of the game. It totally fits it. Zergling are the most used in early games while AoM's egyptian mercenary ain't so used that early in the game let alone priests.

[Darth Windu]

basic infantry unit - available early, cheap, quick to build some examples for my idea for SWGB2 are-

Confederacy - Super Battle Droid

Empire - Stormtrooper

Republic - Clone Trooper

Hutts - Gamorean Guard

Rebels - Rebel Trooper

Naboo - Gungan Trooper

Federation - Battle Droid

Wookiees - Wookiee Trooper

 

luke - i never suggested that the Gamorean Guard would be better than a Wookiee Berserker, in fact, if you looked at the latest version of my idea, you would find the opposite to be true.

 

Vostok - i disagree. Again, melee troops attacking ranged infantry, with the exception of Jedi, will be slaughtered. The Wookiees, though aggressive, are not stupid and would not waste life in that fashion. However, i would be much more plausible for the Hutts to send out their dim-witted melee Gamorean Guards to attack a proectile-equipped force. Hence, the Hutt Cartel would be best suited to having melee basic infantry.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu you're looking at this as if the Wookiee were not a hit-and-fade civ. They are indeed a hit-and-fade civ who could deal lots of damage with melee weapon ambushing their enemies. This is not grass plains where wookiees would charge at the trade fed.

The wookiee civ is made for guerilla warfare, not frontal assault.

[Admiral Vostok]

Exactly, Luke's Dad.

 

Windu, you have to remember that the Wookiees don't line up on a battlefield Gungan-style, then procede to run their melee troopers straight into enemy fire.

 

What they might do, though it is not their preferred style of fighting, is line up their ranged troopers and war machines while infiltrating the melee troopers to attack the enemies flank, or even support the melee Wookiee's with ranged fire, pushing forward until a close-combat strike will produce minimal casualties on their side.

 

However, where the Wookiees excel is guerilla warfare. Their natural affinity with nature, and their arboreal tendencies make them great ambushers. However, it is difficult to represent this well in an RTS without giving special abilities to a more advanced trooper type. But in an early game situation, if the Wookiees come under attack, a fast-moving, cheap, quick-building melee unit will do wonders for defense.

 

Don't forget Windu, the ranged troopers will be there, and will be amajor part of the Wookiee force. After all, Chewbacca, our model Wookiee, carries a bowcaster. But the fact that a Bowcaster is much more powerful even than the Clone Troopers' long-barrelled rifles, as well as a Wookiee's natural resilience and speed makes the ranged Wookiee somewhat of an overpowered first trooper unit. The melee unit makes up for this. I might add at this point that I intend for the Confederacy to not be able to build Super Battle Droids (almost as good as ranged Wookiees) straight away either, starting with standard Battle Droids that will work out slightly weaker than the Trade Federation's.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - you are making two baseless assumptions here-

1. The Wookiee fighting style

2. The bowcaster power

 

We dont know what the wookiee fighting style will be, perhaps we will see in ep3, but at the moment it is just conjecture, so they could fight in any style.

 

Also, in ep6, chewbacca shoots at a scout bike, hits it, and it crashes. In ep2, a clone trooper makes a Droideka explode with one rifle shot. Which is more powerful? The clone trooper rifle.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I am not sure about the Clone rifle blasting a droideka but if it's the case, the shield was not on(like the one Jar Jar accidently destroyed in ep1) or it was an Ion cannon. Nevertheless, I believe it is taken from JK:JO, the assumption that a bowcaster is more powerful which could be the truth. Checking databanks to be sure...

[Darth Windu]

The bit with the Clone Trooper blasting apart the Droideka is where the Gunships save the remaining Jedi, and the Clones are getting back on board just before the Gunships take off again.

[lukeiamyourdad]

It's probably a heavier form of blaster and not the standard weapon...

[Darth Windu]

No, it's the same one that all Clone infantry use.

[DK_Viceroy]

I like the ideas here but if it's a new game why only 1 new unit?Sniper would be a good idea for republic because after all the CloneTrooper weapon of choice is the DC-15 and that does have limited capability for sniper.The SPHAAT did have secondary weapons they were anti personal laser cannons which upped the crew compliment by i think 20 things like that arn't EU they are just technical details that wern't put in the films beacuse they'd bore everyone. One thing that the republic should have would be some sort of commando unit maybe the rebels too.I also like the ideas for the woookie troopers but i have an idea that could make them like they are suggestes without overpowering give them a 50-50 stealth mode that i suggested in anohter thread if you wanted the bowcaster powerful you'd need to factor in it's reload time because that was pretty long so long that if you fired one shot you wouldn't get the hance to fire another because you'd have been blown to bits.The bowcatser roload time compared to a normal E-Web Repating blaster or an E-11 while they had stun mode and the capability to fire restraining bolts if the bowcaster ran out of ammo they could switch it to crossbow mode. Maybe for Wookies as special ability they could move units through forests and no other civ could that would help to emphasize their origin since they live on a pretty dangerous planet.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu:

 

1. Yes I am making assumptions, and although they aren't baseless as you claim I admit they could be wrong. However, you are making those same assumptions. Since my assumptions set the Wookiees apart from other civs in a very nice, thematically-viable way, whereas your way assumes them to fight in exactly the same style as every other civ i the galaxy, I think mine is far better.

 

2. Yes I am making assumptions again about the bowcaster, but these are far from baseless. Yes, I'll admit I am basing them on EU, but as the EU doesn't contradict the movies, why contradict the EU? And yes, I'd also assume the Clone Trooper long-barrelled rifle is more powerful than the Bowcaster, I don't see how I've messed anything up here... the Clone Trooper is far better equipped than a Wookiee, so will no doubt cost more.

[Darth Windu]

1. I mean no offense, but your claims about how Wookiees fight are baseless. This is due to the simple fact that we have never seen how Wookiees fight, and hence cannot know, only guess.

 

2. "the fact that a Bowcaster is much more powerful even than the Clone Troopers' long-barrelled rifles" - that is a quote from an earlier post by you Vostok. The point im making, is that the Bowcasters in the movies dont seem any more accurate or powerful than the blasters used by the Empire, Naboo, Federation or Rebellion.

[lukeiamyourdad]

1. It shows how sith was right about the crappiness of this discussion. Oh well...

 

2. Actually there are differences between the blasters such as accuracy, ammo, knockback, etc. It's like telling there's no difference between an old WWII M 1 Garand and an M 16...