Fate, destiny, and coincidence

[Solbe M'ko]

Sometimes, I will make reference to something from TV in conversation, then that exact same thing will be on at the same time I am watching the tube. I don't know why, and I really can't make myself wonder, because if I do, I'll get caught in some deep moral conflict based on Homer Simpson falling down the stairs.

 

Anyway, if the Universe was a sphere, and there are no other universes in existance, then there would be nothing beyond it. Nothing is very hard to comprehend because no one knows what it is (because it isn't anything). I can't even begin to get my mind around "nothing"; it is simply beyond human capacity.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

Sometimes, I will make reference to something from TV in conversation, then that exact same thing will be on at the same time I am watching the tube. I don't know why, and I really can't make myself wonder, because if I do, I'll get caught in some deep moral conflict based on Homer Simpson falling down the stairs.

 

Anyway, if the Universe was a sphere, and there are no other universes in existance, then there would be nothing beyond it. Nothing is very hard to comprehend because no one knows what it is (because it isn't anything). I can't even begin to get my mind around "nothing"; it is simply beyond human capacity.

if you think about nothing, and it's possibility, for too long you'll find yourself near dead on the ground for about 2 minutes, very interesting. i was sitting in class once thinking about this kind of thing then i kind of got into the whole nothingness and the universes beginning and i thought very deep into it and according to my class mates and teacher i fell to the ground and for about 30 seconds my heart completely stopped beating then started pulsing very fast and i was down on the ground for about 2 minutes not moving even the slightest bit. they said that they tried to pick me up and my body was stiff as a board. but during this time i was "out" i envisioned interesting things which i still can't explain. they seemed as a dream. perhaps all of our life is just a dream that we live in, our "dreams" when we experience them seem very real and stick to the same principles of time. well perhaps these lives we lead are nothing more than dreams that we envision. also perhaps when we "dream" that is actually are reality. this whole esp thing is a good case but not good enough to toss up for likelyhood. i mean i have the same kind of situations. i sit in class or im in the car im talking about a show on tv as an example of something and later that episode is on. i keep thinking numbers during the day and they all end up being answers to problems in my math class. but i think it's more of that our mind makes these things happen to us. or more of that it's just that things happen. i also though think of just random numbers with no signifigance. i always think about things beyond my own possible comprehension but i think that it's more of that i'm making things work.

[Lost Welshman]

I honestly don't beleive in Fate. Not you WILL walk over there sort of fate. I think maybe there is a sort of fate, that we do have control over. Have you ever felt that you were mean't to do something. You knew you had to do it, but you sort of let go and didn't do it.

 

e.g.

 

In school today I said something by accident that my friends jokingly made fun of. Then it got kinda out of hand and I felt as if I was mean't to snap back as I've done many times before, but then I remembered thats what my friend would want, just so he knew he was getting to me. So I sat there, and the next time he spoke I just said whatever and told him to shut up and felt really different.

 

I don't beleive in Destiny. I mean, I really don't think some people's purpose in life is to be a 'refuse collector'.

 

As for coinsidence. I'm always getting that feeling of deja vu, and Usually when I see something or hear something that normally I would ignore, although It would be something I haven't heard either for a while, or forever. Then within the next few days I would hear or see it again, and suddenly remember that I heard it the other day, and I suddenly feel aware of things.

 

Weird.

 

Insane Sith,

 

I don't really think that we live our lives in a dream, here are some reasons:

 

1. If it was JUST a dream, then why would other people be here? I mean mentally, if everyone was having a dream why is everyone else in that dream?

 

2. Unless you mean that you are all made up, which means that I am the cleverest person in the world for inventing everything ever made, using the power of imagination alone. And I'm not evil or nice because when people Die then they arn't really dead, or haven't really been helped. It also must mean I came up with that theory of yours, which I don't beleive. So I'm contredicting myself.

 

3. If your theory is slightly true then maybe we are in a'Matrix'. We could all be plugged up to some sort of system. A game. We might all be playing a game. Although the game is so intense that we forget we chose to play it, and forget it's a game altogether. Just think, if you lead a really sad life then when you wake up and meet your friends to discuss all the cool stuff you did then you had a really sad go at it.

 

Ok I'm talking crap now.

 

I'm going to try you're passing out suggestion, I could use a severe break from life.

[Solbe M'ko]

InsaneSith, not to go off topic, but did that really happen? If so, did you seek medical attention? If you had a seizure or something, that might explain your "dreaming".

 

Deja Vu is something I have experienced a few times. This one time, I remember (and this could just be my memory distorting the actual facts) seeing something and had this strange feeling that I would have Deja Vu involving it in the future. It was really weird, but I attribute Deja Vu to mixed memory messages. What I mean is, like, you see something and you remember it, then you see something similar, and the memory from the first thing gets altered to make it seem the same as what you are looking at. I hope that made sense.

[Homuncul]

I don't really think that we live our lives in a dream, here are some reasons:

 

1. If it was JUST a dream, then why would other people be here? I mean mentally, if everyone was having a dream why is everyone else in that dream?

 

2. Unless you mean that you are all made up, which means that I am the cleverest person in the world for inventing everything ever made, using the power of imagination alone. And I'm not evil or nice because when people Die then they arn't really dead, or haven't really been helped. It also must mean I came up with that theory of yours, which I don't beleive. So I'm contredicting myself.

 

3. If your theory is slightly true then maybe we are in a'Matrix'. We could all be plugged up to some sort of system. A game. We might all be playing a game. Although the game is so intense that we forget we chose to play it, and forget it's a game altogether. Just think, if you lead a really sad life then when you wake up and meet your friends to discuss all the cool stuff you did then you had a really sad go at it.

 

Ok I'm talking crap now.

 

This is no crap at all, These are ideas people thought for hundreds of years in search for reality. Solipsism theory which Sith started is just another alternative for discribing reality which was abandoned solely because of it's insatisfactory approach. Furthermore this theory can not be logically refuted and the only

bad side of it (for scientists) lies in it's explanatory part and not deductive.

 

Logically all 3 statements can justify solipsism, Por ejemplo like this:

 

1. Everyone else is in that dream because you invented them, gave them characters like you do in normal dream

 

2. You may not be the cleverest man in the world for inventing people because simply that VR machine which holds you in this pseudo reality gave you memory of some other people, your relationship with them, invironments or even different laws of physics. In principle, in quantum computation these VR features were proven. Furthermore it was proven that it's possible to create a universal computer working by finite means which can render any logically possible invironment.

 

3. Maybe we live in Matrix. Then our ability to know the truth would solely depend on accuracy of this VR, quality of image, appropriare interactivity, laws of nature we believe in. In movie Matrix it is perfectly seen that matrix is not perfect it has glitches, that's how people could differ the VR if they looked closer.

 

It seems to me that our reality we live now is quite accurate but I didn't really looked for a way to refute it. If I try can I really do this?

 

But in the end I don't think that Deja Vu is a sign for us that we live in inaccurately rendered reality-prison, I think it's more satisfactory to think of our reality to be as it is... for now...

 

I too don't believe in fate which I think to be merely a justification for people's actions and will to "flow with the river" while they can climb mountains on their own. And for me it's obvious the fatal weakness of fate with multiverse involved or without one. Mostly it lies in poor understanding of freedom of will cauze commonly it is taken as a right to choose just randomly from some collection of enteties.

[Lord Siraious]

Well I've read some of the above posts and thought I'd give my views on it and similar things.

 

Fate:

 

I think a very crude defination of this is that it is a term used to state that our life, our choices, actions, emotions and lifespan is already determined. My opinion is that to a certain degree there is such a thing as fate. As others have mention a chain reaction of events follow an event and occcur before one. As I like to say "Things dont just happen by chance, there is no chance, everything that happens is a direct result of something else." However I do believe that we are freely making our own choices about how we act or react. But wait you say, I just said that everything that happens is a direct result of something else, yes but we still choose to act on situation or to not act on them. So if you take a scienific approach to this you will eventually conclude that every single thing that happens is a direct result of something else and you will find that you will never be able to come up with a single event that started it all. This means that quite possibily that the religous stance is right and that we already have our lives already set out by God or Gods.

 

Destiny:

 

Well similar to fate but destiny implies that you have a purpose to serve during your time on the physical world and requires you to a degree to accept that fate exist and occurs.

 

Deja vu, Coincidence, ESP, etc...:

 

First off I'm believer in ESP as I believe that it is the hidden talent we all have but cant really tap at the current time, and in my opinion thank goodness, just imagine how much more damage we could do to everything if we did have ESP. Deja vu well I've had them. I have forseen places That I never seen before then weeks after I've that dream I visit the place and it is exactly how I "forseen" it. I cant see events in the future but places I can sometimes. The most recent episode was 1-2 years ago. I had a dream one night which was different to my normal dreams but normal for these "visions". How do I know they are different to my normal dream well because during a dream I'll stop dreaming midway through it and everything will go black for what seems like 30 seconds then I see the place I'll visit in the near future, once I've had a 30 second look (it seems like a 30 second look) it will go black again for some time and then I'll wake up and its morning. Like I said it was 1-2 years ago and one evening I "f"forsore" the backyard, shed/games room there and the lawn that was at this place that I've never ever seen before. Its day time and it feels as if I am there, no know its the feeling that it real coz you can feel all your body's aches and pains and you can feel the things around you. Anyway about two weeks later two of my cousins die if a house fire. We attend the funeral and get convenced by our grieving Aunty and Uncle to go to the wake which is at their mates place as their place was in need of repair. Anyway we walk out to the back veranda and as I walk out side I notice it was the place in my dream only it was night time. It gave me a cold chill down my spine.

 

It seems I also get what people call a sixth sense, you know that feeling that something bad is comming up. Well I get that when every a relative passes away or when something life altering is going to occur and I again get that feeling a few weeks before anything happen.

 

 

 

Considering that I'm a scientist many would believe that I'm a nutter for my views and for being religous as well (no I do not follow any church as I have come to believe they are all corupt now and do not follow their God/s teaching.)

 

Anyway thats my input for now. As it is late at night I may have type things which dont make sense or you would like me to rant on about it a little more, if so point it out and I'll clarify it tomorrow some time.

 

 

Siraious Altear

[GonkH8er]

I'll make a full post tomorrow... I've had some pretty whacked experiences... but ill just post this up now. Weird stuff, but youve prolly already seen it

 

 

__________________________________

 

MYSTERY OR STATISTICAL CO-INCIDENCE?????

 

The incidence of co-incidence is so prevalent, that it cannot be considered co-incidence.

 

__________________________________

 

Abraham Lincoln was elected to congress in 1846

John F Kennedy was elected to congress in 1946

 

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860

John F Kennedy was elected President in 1960

 

The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain 7 letters.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.

Both their wives lost children whilst living in the White House.

 

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.

Both were shot in the head.

Both were shot in the presence of their wives.

 

The secretary of Lincoln warned him not to go to th theatre.

The secretary of Kennedy warned him not to go to Dallas.

 

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.

Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.

 

Both were assissinated by southerners.

Both were succeeded by southerners.

Both successors were named Johnson.

 

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808

Lyndson Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908

 

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839

Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939

 

Both assassins were known by their 3 names.

Both names have 15 letters.

 

Booth ran from the theatre and was captured in a warehouse.

Oswald ran from a warehouse and was captured in a theatre.

 

Both Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trial.

 

_________________________________

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Lord Siraious

yes but we still choose to act on situation or to not act on them.

 

Do we?

 

There's nothing about magical about emotions and our brain, y'know - s'all chemicals until proven otherwise.

 

Though I'm embarassed to say this, they actually explained it fairly well in the new Matrix movie

 

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- The Merovingian talking about causality and the illusion of choice, and the Architect talking about how Neo had already "made the choice".

 

 

 

 

 

 

You a scientist? What field are you in?

[Rad707_Pandaz]

Okay, somehow...my precognition or whatever is getting stronger and occuring more. It might have something to do with the fact that school is over and I have alot less stuff on my mind. Case in point: When the phone rings, I've been able to "sense" who's on the other line before I pick up the phone. Actually, I don't pick up the phone until I "sense" who it is. It's a little weird. If a telemarketer is calling, I just sense emptiness. My doctor called me, and I knew it was him after the second ring. I'm not sure how, but i just "knew". My mom called me, and I "knew" it was her. I've also had the luckiest guesses with the time. My clock always reads wrong, so I usually use the clock on my TV instead. My Mom asks me the time and I look at the clock that is wrong and just sorta blurt out "4:07". Then I looked at the TV's clock to see if it was right. It was. I didn't try it repeatedly, then I would just feel dumb.

[SkinWalker]

I say you're confusing intuition with something more. Humans are the most intuitive animals on the planet. We seek out patterns in our lives and attempt to make sense of them, both consciously and subconsciously. More likely you are experiencing a little bit of coincidence sprinkled with a little pattern recognition..... I'm usually good at guessing what time it is, but I attribute that to a good internal "clock" and ability to recognize daily patterns (i.e. certain things happen routinely around the same time each day).

 

The telephone thing is probably a bit of coincidence along with subconscious recognition of patterns... mom hasn't called recently, she usually does, "ring," there she is. Precognition is simply pattern recognition and coincidence. Anything else suggests some sort of undefinable, unmeasurable energy. Such a thing doesn't exist. Even dark matter can be measured.

 

But on the off chance that you are psychic, you should take the million dollars from James Randi!

[Homuncul]

C'Jais:

Though I'm embarassed to say this, they actually explained it fairly well in the new Matrix movie

 

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

 

- The Merovingian talking about causality and the illusion of choice, and the Architect talking about how Neo had already "made the choice".

 

It's funny to say that but Merovingian is program that lives in VR, that knows causality only to the point relative to his birth (and not the beginning of first Matrix), and that VR is a system of control colloborated by the machines investigating human subjective psycho by the machine's with not fully accurate instruments which they themselves use to perceive reality as they "like". So actually the problems we have with defining fate and free will is also a machines problem. And only mechanism for such a machine to difine it's existence is it's purpose. Again for a machine purpose is in it's program (which it can override sometimes in Matrix). The purpose of humans is hidden, we only know of our genetic purpose of bearing knowledge through our genes, other than that other purposes we create (choose) ourselves. While I think that our program is, what was defined by our conscience evolution, to find our purpose. For a machine it's a bit easier in real world while firstly they recieved an inicial program from us and so they have an direct inicial state from where to build their conception. We fortunately or unfortunately will probably never be able to difine our inicial state.

 

So i think what Wachovski did in Matrix was that they presented with a collection of ideas mostly approved by society and adressed a problem of what to accept: fate or free will, causality or probability. Probably you have just chosen a concept of a machine living in a world where it can observe causality directly (as a property), while where humans live it's impossible. And some people hearing Morpheus talking about faith accepted a concept of religious people and once again deeepened themselves in the truths of the Bible.

 

So I think Matrix is not about choosing yourself a concept but just to see how wonderfully unpredictably can causality affect some people that they make up such an interesting connection between such diverse and contradictory things.

[Lord Siraious]

Originally posted by C'jais

You a scientist? What field are you in?

 

Well I think i over stated that a little I'm really trainee scientist (3rd Year Uni student), My field is Medical Science, but I more leaning towards medicine as thats where I'll head once I finish my science degree.