Eldritch Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 My point was, whats the point of discussing why we should or shouldnt bash christianity, when we know nothing will change. There is no point. So you're saying we should become complacent and do nothing? This is exactly what i'm talking about - the general attitude most people (including many hardcore Christians) adopt is, "I'm comfortable where I am. It's too difficult to change / nothing will change, so I'm just going to do nothing." It's this attitude that is responsible for so many of today's problems. Everyone thinks "nothing will change," so they do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 I was saying this thread doesnt accomplish anything So do you think people will stop bashing christians? People still bash other peole for their skin color! (you dont see it a lot, but it happens) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acrylic Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Originally posted by The Count Christianity: Kill All Gays because they are Gay. WHAT THE HELL! Where did you hear or read that? From some of your atheist friends, or did you make it up just to piss people off? Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me. If someones gonna bash me or my religion (which I dont think in christianity you're supposed to hate gays) go ahead. It is MY belief, just like atheists belive in "ooooooooo science" and "oooooooo big bang!" Anyways...I hate it when other people say to accept THEIR beliefs, if they dont accept yours. I'm only willing to accept someones beliefs if they accept mine. End of post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Originally posted by Acrylic WHAT THE HELL! Where did you hear or read that? From some of your atheist friends, or did you make it up just to piss people off? Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me. If someones gonna bash me or my religion (which I dont think in christianity you're supposed to hate gays) go ahead. It is MY belief, just like atheists belive in "ooooooooo science" and "oooooooo big bang!" Anyways...I hate it when other people say to accept THEIR beliefs, if they dont accept yours. I'm only willing to accept someones beliefs if they accept mine. End of post. Way to turn the other cheek there, Acrylic. God would be proud. @ lukeskywalker1 - Yes, I think that it's possible that eventually we will get to the point where other beliefs are accepted (even if others don't accept ours, Acrylic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me. Too scared to post this in the homosexuality thread, where people would actually notice it and you might have to defend your statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 *Sings* Flames, flames, go away.. come again some other day... That's a hint guys... hope you caught it. Now to comment: nitpicking]That Christianity was persecuted in Ancient Rome is an unfounded myth. Ancient Rome had religious freedom, and was, spiritually as well as culturally, a mix of a lot of different people, none of whom were persecuted for their beliefs ('cept slaves who thought that slavery was unfair, ect.). The ruling elite, however, was a uniform mass, with the same general cultural and religious background (the original 'Romans'). This is not to say that Rome was a model society, but compared to both what was around at the same time, and most that came after it, it was very open minded. The same, coincidentially, goes for the Arabian world in the Middle Ages. Endnote: This age of religious freedom ended abruptly about 400 A.D., because of the ascention of Christianity. What other religions were present, were persecuted with extreme prejudice, had their temples torn down and churches built on top of the ruins and/or had their temples converted to churches (an act that can best be described as sacrilege).[/nitpicking] Evidence for it being a myth? By all counts the Romans were quite an intolerant people, since after all, they ruled by right of conquest and force of arms (brutally suppressing any percieved insurrection, including speech against the government). I'm not even sure how many thousands (millions?) they murdered in their bloody empire. Perhaps for their time they might have been considered refined and tolerant, but by today's standards there's no possible way we can suggest they were anything but brutal. These are the people who killed human beings for specator sports, and yes, they kept slaves as did many people in those days (and still do today). Nero may not have "fiddled when Rome burned" but he certainly did his share of nasty deeds that make modern day presidential scandals look like nothing. Perhaps the only reason they didn't do more damage in their time was that they didn't have the technology to control as much power as our modern leaders have. The fact that dead Roman Emperors were worshipped as divine in their own right and had their faces put on the coins of the realm was considered a grave insult in the eyes of Jews and Christians. Jews were persecuted when from among them rose "messiahs" who dared to stir up sentiment against the Romans. Christians persecuted each other for centuries of course, but that doesn't make their own persecutions a myth. The same could be said of the Jews. They were persecutors and then persecuted, and now some are persecutors again. Likewise, Islam could be viewed as tolerant, because they allowed Christians and Jews (and sometimes other Monotheists) who paid a special tax (basically protection money) to practice their religion in peace, while at the same time Jews were treated like second class citizens in theocratic Christian countries. But, if someone were to do that today, they would be branded as barbaric and intolerant. Just so you know, I reject the notion that past persecution justifies persecuting other people as some kind of payback. Obviously people who had nothing to do with what some dead people a hundred years ago did can't be blamed for the mistakes of their ancestors. That isn't justice. It's true that some people see that as an excuse, and this is something I just don't buy. Unfortunately, there has been a tendency at various times in history (such as for example the 19th century in the West, or the Renessainse in Europe) to romanticize and idolize the Romans and the Greeks, glossing over their mistakes and modeling them more into how we wish we ourselves were. I've even heard it stated that Romans and Greeks were "really atheists at heart" (spoken of course by atheists who admired them). So considering the source is important... and historians disagree. Now if you like, I can dig up books that support the idea that the Romans were intolerant and brutal. I'd also like to see your sources for the "Christian persecution was a myth, because the Romans were so tolerant." It would be interesting to see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 PS: Maybe last bit should be started in a new thread? I guess it's getting off topic, and what more could be said on the thread title anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Yeah, romans did mistreat christians, like.... PAUL! These are the people who killed human beings for specator sports, and yes, they kept slaves as did many people in those days (and still do today). Yeah, they fed the early christians to lions for entertainment I've even heard it stated that Romans and Greeks were "really atheists at heart" (spoken of course by atheists who admired them). why would an athiest say that when everyone know the romans and greeks had their own gods (there is even a greek god in a court.. uhh.. i think its the court with the statue of moses or the 10 commandments statue....) Sure people can dislike gay people. I do. It just sickens me. If someones gonna bash me or my religion (which I dont think in christianity you're supposed to hate gays) go ahead. nope, not SUPPOSED to hate gay people... (but then again it goes back to what i said before, just because you walk into a christian church doesnt mean your a christian) I stand by the fact that the bible says its wrong its imoral (you dont need a bible to know this) (although I think perhaps a Lemming would be a more accurate way of describing it). hehe... interesting. Everyone is a Lemming, whether you believe in one thing, or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 I stand by the fact that the bible says its wrong its imoral (you dont need a bible to know this) Immoral to you, perhaps. When you say, "the bible says it's wrong," I'm assuming you're referring to the following passages: "You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22 "If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20: 13 If you read the history of the bible, you'll find that both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship. And since we're on the subject of Leviticus, let's see what other rules it lays down (and these are much more specific): In Leviticus 11:1-12, all unclean animals are forbidden as food - including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others. They are all called an "abomination." Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." [this means you're committing a sin every time you get your haircut] The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses. Why don't Christians organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics? Christians today like to selectively apply their own morals to this section of the Bible. They interpret the section of Leviticus incorrectly and use it to condemn homosexuality because it doesn't suit their personal tastes. I don't see any of them so concerned with the fact that they're not following any of the other guidelines from those passages - you'd be hard pressed to find someone who actually lives like that. So let's not use the Bible to say that homosexuality is wrong anymore, m'kay? hehe... interesting. Everyone is a Lemming, whether you believe in one thing, or another. I wouldn't mind an example or something to represent this. I don't see your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Awesome.. was thinking of leviticus chapter 18! just i didnt want to type all of that... but not just leviticus... If you read the history of the bible, you'll find that both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship. Interesting.... uhh i dont think the word homosexual wasnt 'inveted' back then... (another thing, if a man has sex with a man, he isnt really heterosexuall anymore... maybe bisexual, well unless it was raped or something...) really quick... when it says death you know it means Hell right? (I have to explain this to people, back then it was the death sentence, now its Hell...) (and these are much more specific): very specific, as is much of the bible... And since we're on the subject of Leviticus, let's see what other rules it lays down (and these are much more specific): In Leviticus 11:1-12, all unclean animals are forbidden as food - including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others. They are all called an "abomination." Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." [this means you're committing a sin every time you get your haircut] The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses. Why don't Christians organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics? Christians today like to selectively apply their own morals to this section of the Bible. They interpret the section of Leviticus incorrectly and use it to condemn homosexuality because it doesn't suit their personal tastes. I don't see any of them so concerned with the fact that they're not following any of the other guidelines from those passages - you'd be hard pressed to find someone who actually lives like that. So let's not use the Bible to say that homosexuality is wrong anymore, m'kay? nokay nice... but u see the thing is, those rules were "rewritten" when christ died for our sins... we were (i hope this is the right way of explaining this) made holy by his blood. And about the food part, check acts chapter 10 now then... mostly everything is covered by the blood of christ, but homosexuality, as you read in Romans... chapter 1 verse 26-27 it talks about how men and woman have given up natural sex for unatural sex... (read it i bet you though) My paster said, God formed, sin deformed, Christ transformed. (lucky you, most of his sermon today was on homosexuality) I wouldn't mind an example or something to represent this. I don't see your point. well.. you follow something dont you ? evolution, atheism.. buddhism, hinduism, christianity..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 If the rules were re-written, then why not take Leviticus out of the bible? Re-write the bible, or let the Christian bible be made up of the New Testament only. Then you'd actually have some ground to stand on, here. No, the fact is just that Christians today selectively ignore parts of the bible and obey others. The word "homosexual" of course didn't exist back then, anymore than the word "heterosexual" did. But they had other words for it - they knew what it was. It still doesn't change the fact that it's NOT what the bible is referring to, though. And no one "follows" evolution, atheism, or anything else. It's an informed choice. There are no rules governing those things like there are Christianity. You either believe in it or you don't, based on your knowledge of the subject. So stop shining your smug smile at me - your arguments don't have ground to stand on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 OK guys, I'm with Jubateus now - there is no point in trying to discuss rationally with a person whose mind is as closed as LukeSkywalker. This is not to say you shouldn't discuss religious subjects with religious people - just that talking about these things with someone like LukeSkywalker really is a waste of breath. (At least at this point in his life - maybe later in life he could become a bit more clued up...) Unfortunately, we are only fueling his ignorance. We are playing the role of the doubting heretics he heard so much about back in Sunday School - kind of like the 'baddie' you boo at when you watch a pantonime!! And remember, the heathens are SUPPOST to make sense. We are meant to sound convincing. That's how people are lead astray into hell. So trying to use logic and evidence to back up your argument is useless! Basically, it comes down to the saying: 'Don't argue with a fool'. SO fair enough LukeSkywalker. If God told you it's ok to be a bigot, then who am I to disagree... However, out of sheer curiosity, I'd still like to hear your answer to a question I posed to you a while back, and which you (conveniently) forgot to answer... I'd like your view on whether these people are going to hell for an eternity of torment and whether they deserve to (I know you can't know FOR SURE in each case, but just an educated guess from what you know of their lives...) * Florance Nightingale * Ghandi * Mother Teresa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Well, let's estabilish the difference between bashing and questioning here. I think it's needed. If I say that "all christians suck" then I'm bashing. If I say that "it's stupid to believe that homosexuals go to Hell", yes, I'm bashing then too, but in response to christian bashing of homosexuals. Saying "I don't think I'll go to Heaven" is not bashing, but stating your opinion. Truth is, christians bash people as much as people bash christians. People who bash christians just have to learn to direct their anger towards the "Bad" christians, like what I've dubbed the "holy homophobes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I'd like your view on whether these people are going to hell for an eternity of torment and whether they deserve to (I know you can't know FOR SURE in each case, but just an educated guess from what you know of their lives...) * Florance Nightingale * Ghandi * Mother Teresa Before my other post (where i said the bible verse in red, i skipped everything before it, so i didnt read your question) besides I answered jubatus in another thread about this... anyways, my view is, if they hear it, and they hear it, and they hear it, and they still dont believe, then they put themselves there. God doesnt choose what path you take. You do. I know people are going to Hell, I dont like it (who would like to think that anyone would suffer like that?) but its like this: When a child misbehaves, a mother punishes the child, does she like to punish the child? No, but she does what must be done. Same with God. If the rules were re-written, then why not take Leviticus out of the bible? Re-write the bible, or let the Christian bible be made up of the New Testament only. Then you'd actually have some ground to stand on, here. Ok, ill agree with that. But i know it changed the rule on food, but im not sure about the others. Hmmm... im not sure why he made the rules, ill have to reread leviticus (been about a year) And no one "follows" evolution, atheism, or anything else. It's an informed choice. There are no rules governing those things like there are Christianity. You either believe in it or you don't, based on your knowledge of the subject. So stop shining your smug smile at me - your arguments don't have ground to stand on. You follow the ideas. You believe in it right? (an idea can be a deity, after all, if God isnt real, then he is an idea right?) @CloseTheBlastDo: I love how said when you first joined: Skywalker - I repect the way you are standing up for your beliefs - and please don't be intimidated by people who bash you unnessesarily. But also don't close your mind to other ideas, and I would hope you read through my post carefully, because I mainly would like to communite with you directly... But then you change your mind? Ill take you were having a bad day... and forget about this. OK guys, I'm with Jubateus now - there is no point in trying to discuss rationally with a person whose mind is as closed as LukeSkywalker. This is not to say you shouldn't discuss religious subjects with religious people - just that talking about these things with someone like LukeSkywalker really is a waste of breath. (At least at this point in his life - maybe later in life he could become a bit more clued up...) Unfortunately, we are only fueling his ignorance. We are playing the role of the doubting heretics he heard so much about back in Sunday School - kind of like the 'baddie' you boo at when you watch a pantonime!! And remember, the heathens are SUPPOST to make sense. We are meant to sound convincing. That's how people are lead astray into hell. So trying to use logic and evidence to back up your argument is useless! Basically, it comes down to the saying: 'Don't argue with a fool'. SO fair enough LukeSkywalker. If God told you it's ok to be a bigot, then who am I to disagree... Ill make one thing clear, nothing will change my mind about the bible. I have not completly closed my mind, just partially (about the bible) About other sciences, I think they are true, or other facters (that scientists may, or may not have thought about) have influenced the results. Other things, I dont believe are true. Let me ask you something? Is mind completly open? Partially closed? If its open, then why not accept God? Granted, I could never show you any tangible evidence of his existence. But that doesnt mean its not real... correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 anyways, my view is, if they hear it, and they hear it, and they hear it, and they still dont believe, then they put themselves there. Bull. Completely and utter bull. Lets say you are raised Hindu. It's your way of life, it's how you've been living for 30 years. Someone comes along and says "Thats wrong, Christianity is the right way" and you dont agree.... then you're to be burned in hell? For being raised a certain way? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And if there is a god, then I honestly cannot believe that he would be so stupid, irrational, and illogical as to do such a cruel, cold thing to someone. God made me. I can see the crappy logic in that decision. Surely he can too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 @CloseTheBlastDo: I love how said when you first joined: But then you change your mind? Ill take you were having a bad day... and forget about this. When I first joined, I noticed that people were making very personal comments about you, and I didn't really like it. So I wanted to show that some of us were not interested in just blasting you for no reason. It also seemed to me that you were trying to explain your opinions rationally. However, things have changed since then... not only from your replies since then, but I've also taken the time to back-read more of the threads. I thought you might have the ability to take on new ideas - but unfortunately I was wrong. Now yes, my last comments weren't exactly complemetary, but I'm not blasting you for no reason. You have shown a total inability to listen to my, or anybody else's arguments and actually debate it properly. Anything you don't agree with and you don't have any evidence to counter it, you simply dismiss with a quote from the bible more times than not! This is no way to carry on a debate (if we were on a bible study thread, then the situation might be different) - and it is useless for us to try. OK, I take back the 'argue with a fool' section, I don't think that was nessesary and I apologise. But the rest of it, I'm afraid - is spot on. ...and you think that someone like Ghandi DESERVES to go to HELL?! Believe me LukeSkywalker, you get away lightly with the s**t you say. Seriously, I have never heard a more ignorant, arrogant or flat out dumb thing to say. Don't get me wrong, I don't actually think there is a hell, and that Ghandi, or anyone else, is there. But for you to totally ignore the greatness of someone like that and simply dismiss such a man just because he was bought up with a different religion... OK - I DON'T take back the 'argue with a fool' bit. Sorry man, but you deserve it. ..at least admit that someone like Mother Teresa (who has done more good for the people around here than you, or anybody on these forums - she spent her ENTIRE life serving and helping others) is going to hell for an ETERNITY of TORMENT is totally irrational, and that while you don't understand how that's fair or right, it's the way your God told you it is, so you have no choice but to believe it. ...if you said that, you'd gain back SOME of my respect. I should be more polite, I know, but words cannot describe how wrong you are... When a child misbehaves, a mother punishes the child, does she like to punish the child? No, but she does what must be done. Same with God. Shouldn't you have said 'when a child misbehaves, a mother puts her child in the oven for eternity...'. Then the analogy would make some sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo OK, I take back the 'argue with a fool' section, I don't think that was nessesary and I apologise. But the rest of it, I'm afraid - is spot on. Some great words of wisdom found in two fictional works: "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge?" And from another fictional character, "Who is more the fool? The fool? Or the fool that follows him?" Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo OK - I DON'T take back the 'argue with a fool' bit. Sorry man, but you deserve it. The way I see it, there are only three ways to handle circular arguments: [*]Continue the cyclical nature of the argument. [*]Resort to ridicule. [*]Resort to humour. [/list=1] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Hypocrisy is the single best reason to "bash" Christianity. For instance: Moses was a war-criminal. In Numbers 31:3 Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the LORD'S vengeance on Midian. In Numbers 31:7 So they made war against Midian, just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed every male. In Numbers 31:9 The sons of Israel captured the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods they plundered. In Numbers 31:10 Then they burned all their cities where they lived and all their camps with fire. In Numbers 31:12 They brought the captives and the prey and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest and to the congregation of the sons of Israel, to the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan opposite Jericho. In Numbers 31:14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. In Numbers 31:15 And Moses said to them, "Have you spared all the women? In Numbers 31:17 "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. In Numbers 31:18 "But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. In Numbers 31:35 and of human beings, of the women who had not known man intimately, all the persons were 32,000. In Numbers 31:40 and the human beings were 16,000, from whom the LORD'S levy was 32 persons. And finally in Numbers 31:53 The men of war had taken booty, every man for himself. This describes the practice of ethnic cleansing. Moses ordered that even the youngest male be destroyed. Killed. Slaughtered. Put to sleep. The women were mere booty, to be split among the spoilers. What happened to the 32 that went to god? Were they sent via federal express or was it close enough to god to share the priest's household? The only difference I see between Moses and Milosovich is that the latter didn't bother with taking concubines. I'm sure there are significantly more differences, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Whoa, back up a bit... I wasnt talking about those people, I was talking about people in general. You put them in your post... I dont know about those people. And who am I to judge that? Only God can do that, not me, nor you. And the bible clearly says that. You must follow God, or no heaven for you. You cant take good without the bad. Im not ganna sit here and say they are in Hell, if they didnt follow God, then they are. But if they did (which i think mother teresa did) then they are in heaven. I hate to hear that someone would go to Hell. God doesnt like it, and he still loves you while your there. Hes just left you. Its tough to understand, and i understand why you would be mad. ..at least admit that someone like Mother Teresa (who has done more good for the people around here than you, or anybody on these forums - she spent her ENTIRE life serving and helping others) is going to hell for an ETERNITY of TORMENT is totally irrational, and that while you don't understand how that's fair or right, it's the way your God told you it is, so you have no choice but to believe it. ...if you said that, you'd gain back SOME of my respect. I know she did a lot. Did I say she is going to Hell? No. I said PEOPLE. Like it or not, God commands you to follow him. Christ said not everyone will go to heaven. Only the people who do God's will. Good deeds dont matter. How can you make up for your wrong doings. If i kill someone, I go to jail, does it make up for the murder? No. I could give a million dollars to everyone on earth, but thats not enough. Think it foolish, do whatever. You cant have good without bad!!! Why are christians bashed? Because they are taking the bad now! Why would God send someone to Heaven, who has cursed his name, lied, stolen, said "God is a fairytale, lets get rid of him!" (its in this thread) They call him a liar, false, stupid, unfair, ********** and all other kinds of crap ive heard people say about him. Why would he send you to Heaven? You didnt love him! You didnt respect him! You didnt do anything for him, except degrade him! And you deserve Heaven? (this was not ment at you, just in general, lots of people do this, this thread is a good example of this) Topday, people worship themselves. They say they dont need God. The nicest person on earth would go to Hell because of this. Do you understand this? think about it like that. Wouldnt you be mad? Is Hell still irrational!!!???? Dude, people like me are telling you this stuff for a reason: So you can get away from that. If you dont want it fine. I wont force you, im just a messenger. Moses was a war-criminal. Lol, thats perspective. To Israel (at that time, because not many believe he was real now) he would have been a war-hero. However, things have changed since then... not only from your replies since then, but I've also taken the time to back-read more of the threads. I thought you might have the ability to take on new ideas - but unfortunately I was wrong. So you were trying to convert me? LOL. And people constantly complain about christians trying to do that. And from my first arguement with C'Jais (before there was a senate!) I said neither of us would change, so we argue for nothing. And from another fictional character, "Who is more the fool? The fool? Or the fool that follows him?" This is also perspective. Think about this, if christianity is true, then your following Satan (unknowingly) and hes a fool... you get pic. I see how you could relate that to christianity. Moses ordered Moses, or God? Id have to look it up. If you dont like it, tell it to God. Lets say you are raised Hindu. It's your way of life, it's how you've been living for 30 years. Someone comes along and says "Thats wrong, Christianity is the right way" and you dont agree.... then you're to be burned in hell? For being raised a certain way? For continuing it. God would do a lot more than "your wrong, im right" then send you to Hell, if you dont follow. Why does the bible say take the gospel to ends of the earth? Or the four corners? Because there are no four corners! There are no "ends of the earth" That means continue to preach it, till you reach the four corners. There are no four corners, so we keep preaching forever! God didnt say you could stop when your halfway through Africa. Then of course Hell wouldnt be fair, but he says, tell everyone! So they all have an equal oppertunity to get to Heaven! Shouldn't you have said 'when a child misbehaves, a mother puts her child in the oven for eternity...'. You have lifetime. Think of all your sins... and read the other thing above. I noticed that people were making very personal comments about you, Why do you think im one of the few (very few) christians here? because a lot got mad and left (ive done the same) Why did they get mad, because of peoples comments. Dude, people have said all kinds of stuff about me. Im not letting it get to me. Ill just forgive em, and walk on. I do thank you for your concern though. The thing is, if my mind is closed, and im not accepting ideas (I do hear what you say... or read but i dont have to accept it) Then ill die, and people will just think im stupid. And it really doesnt matter. If evolution is correct, I dont have a thing to worry about. Youve heard the rest, i wont bother to type it for the 50th time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I am hereby ending this pointless, circular debate. Reasonable, sound-minded people will see clearly the illogicalities, contradictions and plain ignorance in almost all your arguments. The fundementalists will no doubt see you as someone who has bravely stood up to the slings and arrows of the heathens. ...in the end I guess this is as it must be. You cannot fight ignorance in a place where enlightenment is not welcome... I'm sorry if I seem offensive. Deep down I think your a decent guy LukeSkywalker - I've said so before. But you've been bought up with some pretty f***ed up beliefs, which you are unable to see past. You believe that people that have been taught the 'lies' of other religions are going to hell. I on the other hand believe that you being bought up in your religion may very well have condemned you to a lifetime of (self-inflicted and self-sustained) ignorance. Who is right...? I'll end with a classic : 'I'll see you in hell!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 For continuing it. Suppose I'm a convert to Hinduism. I decide to try to convert you. You, understandably, resist, claiming your religion is the right one. I continue trying to convert you, and you continue to resist. After all, Christianity is what you've been raised as from birth. It's all you know, and you truly, deeply believe it in. There's no way you're going to convert, right? It goes the same way the other way around. A christian can try and try to convert a muslim or a hindu, but if that person has been raised from birth to be part of that religion and has strong convictions in it, it's not gonna do squat. I've always said, there's an element of brainwashing in being taught to believe in a certain religion from birth, or as a little child. So if these people cannot change (and many of them have faith that is even more unshakable than yours) because this is who and what they were raised to be... why send them to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I wasnt raised to be a christian I said it was all a waste of time, and other things. I never was mad at it the way you are though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I'm not mad at Christianity. It's never done anything to hurt me. And if you werent raised Christian, fine. Good for you. But can you respond to any of the other points? Or are you just going to make your smug smiley faces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 smug smiley face Anyways, God gives people more than one oppertunity to turn around. Yeah, it can be hard. You dont have to... of course. Dude, satanists have turned to God. Buddhists, muslims, hindus, athiests.. or just average people, who dont ever think about religion at all have turned. Its very possible. As possible as you will let it. I never was mad at it the way you are though. Well... other people seem to be... EDIT: the law is the law. Suddam's sons were raised to kill... they still paid the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I understand it's possible. Anything is possible, in my opinion. I just think it's pretty messed up to condemn someone to eternal damnation for something like not wanting to change their entire belief structure just because someone "says" that it's wrong. You can claim all you want about the bible, but to someone who is not of that faith, it's just a book to them. They have no more reason to believe in the bible than they do something that I may have written. Sure, they could do a little research and maybe see that the bible has some historical authenticity. But then, so does the Quran! That means very little, and moreover, they probably wouldnt bother. After all, they are happy where they are. Why should they change? Because you say so? Because the bible says so? Well, we're back to the same circle, then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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