ShadowTemplar Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Well no offense, but if you are so really offended by the religion of the majority of the people in your country, you could always consider emigrating to someplace else more to your liking... It's not just the religion, it's more the way that most people feel that they have to shove it down my throat, that makes me want to shove it up their arse. Religion in private is fine tolerable. Religion in public is offensive. I'm surprised that a moderator hasn't closed this thread yet. This is quite offensive and you're just making a fool of yourself. Hvor er det synd for dig... Tudekiks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Originally posted by MydnightPsion They were flat out insulting gays. I'm not. I'm saying that some of the mods here are FAR to biased to Christians. And some are biased toward the other extreme.... perhaps me, for one Though, I do try to be objective and not let my bias make decisions about moderating the Senate. I think you might be sore about some of the threads that I've seen propagate in the Swamp that get locked because they take a pro/anti religion turn. The mods there lock them because they don't want that type of discussion.... in the Swamp, more light hearted and less serious forms of interaction are desired by most... not just the mods. I remember C'Jais pushing a huge debate about a year ago because there was a lack of seriousness in the Swamp: too many game threads, picture threads, random discussion.... The Evolution vs. Creation thread was the embryo of the Senate Chambers... (by the way... that thread still exists in the swamp ). This bit of information might seem off-topic at first, but I think its dead on. The thread's theme seems to be how religious right is pressuring those who don't subscribe to it to conform and how that is wrong. I'm just stating that what might seem to be that way in LucasForums, mightn't actually be so. It could be that such threads are deemed far too serious for other sections, but they fit right in here in the Senate. There's an expectation, albeit a largely de facto one, that a different level of maturity is maintained here. In fact, I'd say overall there is much more tolerance here than in other places of the LucasForums such as the Swamp, Aresen, and the Cantina. Those forums aren't conducive to pro/con religion debates, rhetoric, rants, or discussion. However, I must agree that within government, there is a strong push to establish Christian dominance in our places of government. Take the example of the Alabama judge who exceeded his authority in refusing to remove the stone idols of the 10-commandments from the halls of the courthouse. Having that symbol of christianity in a secular institution states publicly that "this is the accepted form of religion and values and all others are incorrect." I think this bigotted judge would agree. Lucky for the citizens of Alabama, they arrested the nuts that were kneeling around the stone edifice in prayer (apparently the position of prayer is compatible with the position one's arms/hands need be in to properly put handcuffs on) and hauled them off. The state of Alabama stood to be fined $5000/day until it was removed. Just as a point of note: I know of a mod who recently (in another forum) typed the words, "screw Jesus." I'd say he wasn't biased for the religious right. Just a hunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 They were flat out insulting gays. I'm not. I'm saying that some of the mods here are FAR to biased to Christians. Hmmm... would a thread about a petition by christians to get him to stop atheism go unchecked. Probably. Generally: Yes, Bush is being way too religious. When he goes as far as to try to prevent gay marriage, he's taking it too far. How would he feel if a Muslim president said that all women had to cover their hair, I wonder... Well no offense, but if you are so really offended by the religion of the majority of the people in your country, you could always consider emigrating to someplace else more to your liking... Again, if you want to discuss religion, wait until you're asked or ask the person you're talking to if he wants to discuss it with you. Or we could just prohibit all religious discussion within LucasForums. Then maybe we could have a serious thread on gays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homuncul Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 I guess Bush is neither very religius nor gay hater . What he says and does is what he's told to do to increase his rating. This is all politics. It's just the diretion he chooses. The point here is to see real motives and goals under his actions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 It's not just the religion, it's more the way that most people feel that they have to shove it down my throat, that makes me want to shove it up their arse. Religion in private is fine tolerable. Religion in public is offensive. Well now there's the trouble. If you live in the US anyway, the First Amendment allows freedom of expression with regard to religion along with speech and the press. It says that this right cannot be taken away, and that there can be no establishment of religion. So whether it is offensive or not, it is constitutionally protected, just like speech and the press. An example of this kind of thing: not so much anymore, but around the time of Sept 11th, a lot of people were being all patriotic and waving American flags around. I read about a handfull of people who were upset because they said "the American flag is a symbol of oppression" and that if you displayed a flag it meant you "agreed with everything wrong the government ever did." Of course I wondered where these people were on every Independance Day/Veteran's Day/Memorial Day, etc. but anyway you get the point. Also in the 90's there was a debate over flag burning as a form of protest (should it be legal, since enemies of the US in other countries always do it on the 6 o'clock news?). It was decided that you could burn the flag as a form of protest, and you could display it, regardless of whom it offended (IIRC), because it was within the realm of freedom of speech (so long of course, as it was your flag, and not one you stole off a government building for example). Blashempy is not a crime, and likewise, religious expression is not a crime either. When the government does it, yes this is problematic when it crosses the line. That's part of the debate. And yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know we are thinking here about various cases like posting the ten commandments in a Court Room, or allowing a "moment of silence" in public schools, or saying "...under God" in the pledge of allegience, etc. etc. The role of the Supreme Court is to interpret the Constitution and apply its concepts to existing laws, in order to determine if they are Constitutional (which does not say if they are right or wrong, just legal or illegal, according to the law of the land). Remeber that even non-Christian presidents invoked God frequently in public speeches.* Just as you have a right to stand on a street corner and proclaim "there is no God" I have a right to stand on a street corner and proclaim that my religion is the only true one (with a proper permit and between the hours of 9-5 during the holiday season, with the proper papers....). You don't have to agree of course, which is the whole point. ; ) And as for judging people, just as being an atheist doesn't make you necessarily an immoral bigot, neither does being a Christian make you necessarily a fanatical hypocrite. * many of the Deist founding fathers who were presidents, and Lincoln, although there is some debate about whether Lincoln was a deist, atheist, or something else. Whatever he was, he was definately not a mainstream Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 I'm begining to notice a really aggravating pattern on these forums: If a Christian finds something offensive, the thread gets closed or the thread starter gets warned. But if an atheist or someone else is offended by what a Christian says? What happens then? He gets ignored. The unbiasedness(is it a word) and hypocracies here are as thick as the Bible. Seeing a conspiracy where none exists... while it is true that we moderators have our opinions, and if you don't agree, you have no recourse (since we run the site how we choose, according to our rules and policies, not based on popular vote), there are LOTS of us, and we have a wide range of beliefs and opinions. Or are you saying that the Christian moderators are ganging up on the non-Christian moderators and not letting them have their fair share? We do our best to be impartial in debates and don't ban people simply for disagreeing (that would be cheating!). Otherwise, there would be no point in debating once a moderator got involved. ; ) Datheus: Actually it sounds to me like our beliefs are closer than I thought. I agree with you on almost all the points you made. I don't like people who are pushy. Me, I like to discuss religion, though I know a lot of people find it makes them uncomfortable, and there are other people whom you can't possibly have an honest discussion with, they will just rant and rave and never listen to any side but their own. Thus, a person has to be respectful of others when doing so. All of this "telling people they're going to hell" business is something I hear complained about often, but I have never witnessed it (though I have seen the Rev. Phelps picketing the funerals of gays who died of AIDS on TV, and that just makes me sick...). There is a certain logic to it, if you were a Christian who strongly believed that yes, your friend/neighbor is going to hell, you might wish to warn him. Of course, on the other hand, it could be done in a self-righteous manner like "I'm better than you, and you're going to hell, ha ha" kind of attitude, that would really piss somebody off. On the other hand, I think a lot of Christians do (or should) look at the admonishing to "judge not, lest you be judged." Again, I can see where pushy people would make you upset, I feel the same way about telemarketers and spammers. I get a ton of religious based mail nowadays (snail mail). This was because I joined the AAR (American Academy of Religion, a scholarly organization that discusses and writes on a vast spectrum of topics related to it). Most of it is junk, and I could care less about it, but some of it is interesting. Like anything else, you have to sift through the crap. It's more interesting than most of the junk mail I get though (useless coupons, viagra ad emails, etc). I guess a good way to think about it is to try to put yourself in the other person's shoes. To see how you are offended by Christian literature put in your mail box, I would have to imagine how I would feel if I were to find people putting Atheist propaganda in my mailbox. Now, it also depends on what it is. If it were to happen once or twice, no big deal. If it were constantly being put there, I would probably find a way to complain (to the person sending them, the advertiser, or the post office, etc). Then there's the fact, that the literature that can be created is not even agreed upon by all Christians. For example, many Christians are just as pissed off about Chick comic books that you find as Atheists, Jews, homosexuals, Freemasons, Muslims, etc. There are still fine lines of good taste, civility, etc, that probably shouldn't be crossed in polite society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Seeing a conspiracy where none exists We do our best to be impartial in debates and don't ban people simply for disagreeing (that would be cheating!). Otherwise, there would be no point in debating once a moderator got involved. ; ) I'm not saying there is a conspiracy. I'm saying that in my opinion, Christianity is flawed and hypocritical, and then a nameless Mod (I don't wanna invoke his 'wrath' again, it might mean my forum demise) says it was inappropriate, but someone can make a 'stupid things' thread. I just find it a bit strange that I can get yelled at for a post, but SamFisher can spam for a month straight and not get ban, but if I post the wrong thing, the threat is dropped on me like a bomb on Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Well now there's the trouble. If you live in the US anyway, the First Amendment allows freedom of expression with regard to religion along with speech and the press. Yes, yes, yes, Freedom of Speech. However, there are two little-noticed qualities to Freedom of Speech. They are the right not to speak, should you so choose, and the right to refuse to be spoken to, should you so choose. Those two properties should get far more emphasis, IMO. Also there are several limits to the Freedom of Speech, such as the clause that one must not use Freedom of Speech to slander persons or groups (aka: Flame), or use said Freedom to distribute corporate secrets ect. that have been obtained illegally, and so on, and so on. And lastly, spreading totalitarian propaganda (including but not limited to Christian and Nazi propaganda) while invoking the Freedom of Speech is just plain hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar And lastly, spreading totalitarian propaganda (including but not limited to Christian and Nazi propaganda) while invoking the Freedom of Speech is just plain hypocritical. I agree. Albeit, like you said, they have the right to talk about it to you. The problem is they become hypocritical when the don't take a solid NO for an answer. Thats what irks me about religious types. On another note: ShadowTemplar, SkinWalker, and Datheus are my new heros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Also there are several limits to the Freedom of Speech, such as the clause that one must not use Freedom of Speech to slander persons or groups (aka: Flame), or use said Freedom to distribute corporate secrets ect. that have been obtained illegally, and so on, and so on. Hear, hear (we need thumbs-up and thumbs-down smileys:D). What we need now is to communicate this to people defending neo-nazis as part of freedom of speech. Another point: The original thread that got closed was a petition to stop God. That's all it was, a petition. It's even more pathetic than the American Anti-French dubbing french fries 'freedom fries' as an act of protest. And it was linked to as a joke. Personally, I wouldn't have had a problem with someone posting a petition to stop Buddhist gods. I would have thought it was pathetic if it was an actual attempt to wipe out Buddhism, but I would have assumed it was a joke, and a non-offensive one at that. It's definetly not a reason to close a thread, IMO, and not a reason to flame anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Personally, I wouldn't have had a problem with someone posting a petition to stop Buddhist gods. I would have thought it was pathetic if it was an actual attempt to wipe out Buddhism, but I would have assumed it was a joke, and a non-offensive one at that. It's definetly not a reason to close a thread, IMO, and not a reason to flame anyone. I agree, but it shows that Christians take there religion FAR to seriously. When someone threatens to beat you for saying your not Christian (it happened to me through my entire HS career), it really shows you that alotta Christians don't even apply what they learn (i.e: Peace and Love). It just shows that they think they're going to Heaven, regardless of their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Thought I'd add this: Did any of those christians actually look at the site? It was not a petition to stop God. It was a petition to God to stop him from doing evil things in the world!! Originally posted by petition starters: Dear god, stop making bad things happen, its not funny any more. Sincerely, The Understood In other words, "Stop God" means "Stop God from making bad things happen". To add to that, Datheus posted that That should get us some posts, clarifying that he put the title there only to attract people to the thread. Now, I just find it so annoying when someone speak up on something they know nothing about, especially when it leads to the stopping of something that shouldn't necessarily be stopped, or the starting of something that shouldn't necessarily be started. Or are they, worse, serious when they say that it should be banned on these boards to critizise God?? Without pointing fingers at individuals, I have to say that I just wonder sometimes... Case of point, my school bus. The people at my school came up with a good assigned seat system on the buses making the people who went off at the first stop sit down in the very front of the bus, the people who got off second sit down behind them, the people who went off at a third stop sit down behind them.. and so on, so that when you left the bus, you would have no one sitting in front of you and you wouldn't have to break past all those people to get off of the bus. Furthermore, no one would have to get up to let you past them as you would be guaranteed to sit next to some person who got off at the same stop as you. Originally posted by Kurgan Well no offense, but if you are so really offended by the religion of the majority of the people in your country The majority of the the people in the USA aren't like that. Don't try to make it sound like he's bashing christianity as a whole. He's not. He's bashing fanaticism, which is wrong. Luckily, most christians aren't fanatical. Then some people protested and now I've gotta wrestle trough people to get off. I asked a guy who complained and he had no idea of why we had to sit like that... sigh. As a second side note, I wonder why it is that more people don't speak up against my (and my comrades') posts, or, if they're wrong, apologize for over-reacting. Yes, you should, don't give me that look. You led to the closing of a thread when you clearly not knew what you were protesting against. If you posted a thread and someone misunderstood it, leading to it being closed, wouldn't you be mad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 in my opinion a government should have nothing to do with a religion.. and a religion should have nothing to do with a government. this ever caused trouble in the past and it will cause trouble in the future!!! .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Okay, to me, a Christian, that thread and the petition seemed to me a pretty obvious joke. MydnightPsion, the mod who "threatened" you is in no way a Christian. So you're essentially beating up a straw man. Look, it is impolite to throw religion in peoples' faces, be it christianity, buddhism, or satanism. No matter how peaceful or controversial that religion is. It's even more wrong to try to convert people. How is that wrong? How can that possibly be wrong? "It's annoying" doesn't make something wrong...after all, we live in a country of advertisements I've never really understood gay parades. IMO, it just serves to set gays apart from the heterosexuals. I'm not saying it should be illegall, heck no, not with neo-nazism and KKK and what not being legal. It would be completely out of line (and I wouldn't want them banned if the KKK was banned either, for that sake). You don't? Simply, it's easier to be part of a persecuted minority (and whether or not you think homosexuality is a choice, you can't deny gays are a persecuted minority) if you've got others in it with you. It's all about morale. Off on a tangent, I am really disgusted that threads about gays constantly get closed, here and in other forums, but especially here. If jerks can't stop themselves from flaming, why can't the mods use the same lack of restraint in the "edit post" or "delete post" options? But hey, what do I know - I don't mod here ...wow, that was alot shorter than I thought it would be. Alot of what I wanted to say has already been said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 How is that wrong? How can that possibly be wrong? "It's annoying" doesn't make something wrong...after all, we live in a country of advertisements. Yes, it makes it wrong. It goes under tactfulness. Especially missionaries in the Middle East who give people the choice of "convert or starve". And advertisements have nothing to do with that. Look, I should be able to think what I want without people going "stop thinking that, think this". You don't? Simply, it's easier to be part of a persecuted minority (and whether or not you think homosexuality is a choice, you can't deny gays are a persecuted minority) if you've got others in it with you. It's all about morale. Didn't think of it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Originally posted by Redwing Off on a tangent, I am really disgusted that threads about gays constantly get closed, here and in other forums, but especially here. If jerks can't stop themselves from flaming, why can't the mods use the same lack of restraint in the "edit post" or "delete post" options? But hey, what do I know - I don't mod here If you click on this List of Threads that Included the Discussion of "Homosexuality", you'll find that only one thread was closed. C'Jais and I discussed this at length and both agreed that closing was initially a bad idea. Much editing occurred, as did a few post deletions (the latter is even mentioned by me on the last page). I forget who actually closed it, it could have been me, but it was done after an Administrator warned of the possibility. Still, looking at the list of threads above, you MUST RETRACT YOUR STATMENT! *Puts on Darth Vader Mask and puts the choke on Redwing. "I find your lack of faith disturbing." See. And everyone says I don't have a sense of humor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jed Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 *walks in, and dons the vest with name tag reading :"Hi, my name is NAMELESS MOD" Yes, I'm the Christian bastard who was so insulted by that stop god thread, I had to close it to protect my religion. [/sarcasm] Listen people, I'm going to dispel all this bad press that's going on. First off, while I find it is absolutely none of anyone else’s business, I am an atheist. Got that, Mydnight and co? I had no problem with the accused thread, and actually had a ball laughing at it. However, it seems this wasn't known: Posted by MynightPsion And I get a ban threatened at me for calling Christianity an upity and flawed religion... I did not threaten a ban, I warned you. And with that, I only warned because of a post earlier on in which you had made an entire 9 or 10 lines of the phrase "screw you". Any claims of professionalism you're making are clearly flawed. And in PMs the apology post after my warning didn’t fly, so don’t try it here. Posted by MynightPsion I'm saying that in my opinion, Christianity is flawed and hypocritical, and then a nameless Mod (I don't wanna invoke his 'wrath' again, it might mean my forum demise) says it was inappropriate, but someone can make a 'stupid things' thread. First things off, you asked for my 'wrath', bub. I don't need to come online to see such hastiness and attitude in a Private Message. And let's look again in that thread, because I don't believe that's what you said... Posted by MynightPsion in the closed "Stop God" thread All you crybabies. Its a joke for crying out loud. Oh, but its okay to bash hethen Atheist and Jews, right? Upity Christians and their flawed religion. Last time I checked, you were bashing people primarily, and threw in Christianity afterwards. And quoting the rules of JK.net: JK.net Code of Conduct, Rule #1 1. You cannot, in any way, insult (or "flame") someone else on the board. People may not be insulted just because their opinion differs from your own. Posted by SkinWalker In this forum, the Senate Chambers, any thread of serious discussion is free to remain open as long as it adheres to the rules. Namely "You cannot, in any way, insult (or "flame") someone else on the board." I interpret that to mean no ad hominem attacks. No personal attacks. Attacking concepts, ideas, theories, and beliefs is allowed so long as doesn't degenerate to violating rules #2 and #3: " Refrain from using excessive profanity," and "Spamming is strictly prohibited." As I do with the Swamp, SkinWalker. Mydnight, it looks like you stepped out of bounds, as the thread did not start bashing atheists. If it had, the thread would have been closed as well. Posted by Dagobahn Eagle It's definetly not a reason to close a thread, IMO, and not a reason to flame anyone. Not everyone thinks that it's not a reason to flame anyone. That thread would have turned into a religious mess, and as SkinWalker said, threads like that are normally closed or moved to the Senate. Religious messes are a reason to close in Yoda's Swamp. And for my stance on the issue at hand, I don't agree with being force fed a religion. As a kid, my parents raised me as an Episcopal, and I eventually made my own decision. My decision is mine and mine alone; if you choose my decision, then fine, but I'm not one to criticize you for not choosing mine or any other religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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