will MP gameplay be like SP?

[snowman21]

In ja, will saber combat in multiplayer be the same as the singleplayer combat? I for one think that it JO would've been better if this was the case...

 

and sorry if this has been asked before.

[JEDI OUTCAST]

maybe. but i would not think so.

[Gabrobot]

Actually, Raven has gone to much trouble to get multiplayer to play like singleplayer as much as is possible. I think they have also put in GHOUL 2 collision detection so that light sabers actually hit each other or the player, not a box around the player like in the first Jedi Knight...

[Jedith]

I'd guess, the only thing that you can't do in MP from SP is being able to move around while doing backstab and overhead slash type of moves. Correct me if I'm wrong..

[JediofVengeance]

Originally posted by snowman21

In ja, will saber combat in multiplayer be the same as the singleplayer combat? I for one think that it JO would've been better if this was the case...

 

and sorry if this has been asked before.

 

What with patches put forth from lucasarts, i would think they'd change the gameplay accordingly. It would be time wasting to produce another 1.02 MP experience. Those who urged the patches would do so again, and lucasarts would go through the process once more. That is of course, they're aiming for a 1.02 MP experience with no exceptions, which i doubt.

[jarek]

Originally posted by snowman21

In ja, will saber combat in multiplayer be the same as the singleplayer combat? I for one think that it JO would've been better if this was the case...

 

and sorry if this has been asked before.

 

I would expect the lightsaber to be toned down a bit in multiplayer games. 1 or 2 hit lightsaber kills would have folks crying their eyes out. Hopefully it will be more powerful than it was in JK2. Lets pray for no saber nerfs this time around.

[Andy867]

I heard that Raven will be scripting MP to be based on SP, whereas with jedi outcast, they scripted each one separately. By scripting them together so that MP acts like SP, modders will be able to make Mods that can reflect a SP-like mood for the mod.

[Kurgan]

Hmm.. that could be good and bad.

 

In JK2, the saber combat in SP was "better" by most people's standards, but the guns in SP were TERRIBLE, compared to MP.

 

Hopefully what they really meant is that they would be close, but not identical, unless they're going the MP route. ; P

[jarek]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Hmm.. that could be good and bad.

 

In JK2, the saber combat in SP was "better" by most people's standards, but the guns in SP were TERRIBLE, compared to MP.

 

Hopefully what they really meant is that they would be close, but not identical, unless they're going the MP route. ; P

 

I believe it was patch 1.04 when I realized that theres no point in using a lightsaber against someone using explosion-type guns in MP. The lightsaber was no match for 2 or 3 quick shots from the alt fire on the flechette gun or alt fire on the heavy repeater. Even using force push to defend yourself against gunfire was hopeless vs a good player. Plus, theyve got more ammo than youve got force. You could try to force pull the gun outta their hand, but smart folks used absorb to prevent that. In the end you had a choce between using a gun or playing on a saber-only server. That kinda ruined it for me, when Jedi Knight became Quake Knight.

 

Gun balance needs to be watched carefully in Jedi Academy so this doesnt happen again. As far as guns are concerned, I'm fine with one gun being more powerful than the other. Example: The flechette gun is obviously more powerful than the pistol. This makes sense. Its difficult for the pistol person to win, but it can be done. This rule should not apply to the lightsaber. Last time I checked, the lightsaber was the weapon of a jedi. Which means this weapon should be able to hold its own fairly against any other weapon (without being over-powering of course).

 

Gun folks have the obvious advantage of being able to attack strongly and quickly from a distance. With the saber youve, got to be close range to attack or throw the saber acurately (thank you captian obvious). If I'm able to dodge gun attacks and get within swinging range of my opponent, give me one good reason why I shouldnt be able to kill him with 1 or 2 slices? The saber shouldnt be a plastic toy that takes 20 or so damage.

 

I know some will disagree. But this is just my 2 cents.

[BigMexican]

i agree with Jarek. i think light stance should do 30-40 damage, medium do 50-70, and heavy do 100+. more emphasis should be put on defense, and blocking incoming attacks, so that mistakes result in death, rather than a slap on the wrist. make it harder to land a blow, but more damaging when they do connect. i think this would make duels more interesting, but also open up saber only (team) ffa. there's nothing i hate more than seeing a group of people running in circles beating each other ineffectively with sabers.

 

of course its too late to change the game, this is simply what im hoping for

[Kurgan]

I believe it was patch 1.04 when I realized that theres no point in using a lightsaber against someone using explosion-type guns in MP. The lightsaber was no match for 2 or 3 quick shots from the alt fire on the flechette gun or alt fire on the heavy repeater. Even using force push to defend yourself against gunfire was hopeless vs a good player. Plus, theyve got more ammo than youve got force. You could try to force pull the gun outta their hand, but smart folks used absorb to prevent that. In the end you had a choce between using a gun or playing on a saber-only server. That kinda ruined it for me, when Jedi Knight became Quake Knight.

 

Well, you could always use Protection, or pull the guy's gun away (and if they blocked the pull, you could throw your saber at them and score a hit while they were distracted), but people seem to have forgotten about those. Not only that, but Rage made you basically invulnerable...

 

And everybody (including me) forgot about Saberdamagescale 2 or 3 (JA will have this preset for non-Duel so Sabers do more damage, vs. in duels they do less).

 

Gun balance needs to be watched carefully in Jedi Academy so this doesnt happen again.

 

My argument was that the guns were FINE in 1.04 MP, perfectly fine. It was the sabers that sucked (until you changed the saberdamagescale cvar). The problem is, if we swap out and use the SP guns in MP, then using anything but a saber will be utterly useless. The SP guns were weaker, slower, more inaccurate, etc.

 

In fact, I felt the overall movement and actions were tighter in MP (they had to be to account for lag whereas in SP they were more showy and slowed down), I was just pointing out that "most people" on here whined that MP sabers needed to be more SP like.

 

MP guns do NOT need to be more SP like. Or else, as you say, nobody will play anything but sabers only, because guns will be utterly pathetic and useless.

 

As far as guns are concerned, I'm fine with one gun being more powerful than the other. Example: The flechette gun is obviously more powerful than the pistol. This makes sense. Its difficult for the pistol person to win, but it can be done. This rule should not apply to the lightsaber. Last time I checked, the lightsaber was the weapon of a jedi.

 

Yeah, but aren't a lot of people assuming that once you get a lightsaber you should be unstoppable? That's something I don't agree with. That's like making one gun that is unstoppable. It's silly and unbalanced. Then nobody will use any other weapon. You might as well remove all the others.

 

The JK series and the EU has always had force sensitives using more than just lightsabers. This isn't "Obi-Wan" this is Jedi Academy. Oh sure, you might say, it's Luke, and he's training everybody to be saberists. But don't forget you are being trained by Kyle, a known Gun/Explosives wh0r3. ; )

 

Which means this weapon should be able to hold its own fairly against any other weapon (without being over-powering of course).

 

In class based games I would agree with you, but in general FFA, I say it shouldn't be the most powerful weapon, it should be balanced with the others, in the interest of game balance, or, as I said, there will be no point in using anything but the saber (admittedly this seems to be what some jedi fanboys want, but I don't think its going to happen it the base game, thankfully).

 

They are doing the right thing in JA by increasing the saber damage in non-Duel modes (as SaberDamageScale 2 and 3 do). This will make the saber more powerful as it was in 1.02.

 

Gun folks have the obvious advantage of being able to attack strongly and quickly from a distance. With the saber youve, got to be close range to attack or throw the saber acurately (thank you captian obvious). If I'm able to dodge gun attacks and get within swinging range of my opponent, give me one good reason why I shouldnt be able to kill him with 1 or 2 slices? The saber shouldnt be a plastic toy that takes 20 or so damage.

 

See above. ; )

 

I think the saber needed some tweaking from 1.04 defaults (which could be accomplished by a console command or two), and it will be, as Raven has stated, so your concerns have been answered!

[jarek]

I really cant comment too much on the guns in single player on JO. I honestly didnt play it much. I bought the game for multiplayer. I gave the SP a shot, but the puzzles annoyed me, lol. Bumping up the lightsaber rather than nerfing the guns is the key. JA doesnt need nerfs running wild like JO did.

[Kurgan]

Trust me.. or fire it up some time.

 

The guns in SP are patheticly weak compared to the guns in MP.

 

I think their intention was to make the guns useful only until you got the sabers and Force, then you were supposed to stop using them.

 

I figured this because that's what I did. I found the gun only levels highly frustrating. It was much harder to kill AI with guns in SP than it was to kill bots in MP.

 

This was especially true if you played on Jedi Knight or Jedi Master difficulty.

 

I know this time around in JA's SP they are putting even more emphasis on Sabers and Force, but that makes me think the guns will be hardly ever used. Then again, some have suggested that you'll be at just a low level of Force/Saber that using the guns will make more sense (sort of like the frustrating Nar Shaddaa level levels in JK2). But I think they would be better served to make the JA SP guns more like MP (rather than the other way around or just leaving them the same as JK2). If they still want you to use the saber more, they could just make more enemies that have force pull or make ammo more scarce for the big guns.

 

Or at least they could include a console command to make "realistic gun damage" or something (ie: MP style guns in SP).

 

It would certainly lower my frustration levels... ; p

[XanaJedi]

the saber game play in sp was kinda 'slow' like u where drugged or somehting

[Prime]

Originally posted by jarek

Last time I checked, the lightsaber was the weapon of a jedi. Which means this weapon should be able to hold its own fairly against any other weapon (without being over-powering of course).

The problem with this is that the movie world does not translate well to the online MP game world. Ranged weapons have an inherent advantage against melee weapons. In the movies the great equalizer has been that the wielders of the lightsaber have been Jedi, and the gunner are not. The Force helps the Jedi to be effective with a melee weapon even against guns. This works great for cinema (and the SP game), but does not work for MP because there all of the gunners are also Jedi, with all their powers. This negates the traditional Jedi advantage, and once again the advantage of guns over melee weapons arises.

 

Also, the Jedi did not select the lightsaber because it is an uber-weapon that is more powerful than all others. Their goal is not to be "l33t d00dz" who want to rack up "frags". If they did, they probably would select rocket launchers They aim to maintain peace and order, and selecting a defensive weapon instead of an offensive one reflects this philosophy. But this is again completely different from MP, where the only goal is to kill everyone else (at least on non-RPG servers)

 

In the end, with everyone haveing access to the same abilities, a good gunner is going to defeat a good saberist.

[StormHammer]

Well said, Prime, and I totally agree.

 

All we really know for sure is that Raven said they were trying to make the saber combat similar in both SP and MP, but not identical. We also know that saber damage will change according to the MP mode being played (more damage in FFA etc., less damage in Duel).

 

The only thing I'm really hoping for is an option to stop the dynamic cursor from flipping around the screen. I just want it in the centre, but with all the special effects (red, green, Force use on object etc.) intact. That would go a long way to curing the 'accuracy' problem that I and many others experienced in SP. I know this for a fact, because I used half as much ammo when I turned it off (and yes, I did spend the time to actually test that).

 

Anyway, I can't wait to play the game so we can resolve all these perceived 'issues' with the game.

[Dunedain]

I agree with jarek on this. The lightsabers should be deadly. Not only is

it an accurate modeling of lightsabers, but battles were so much fun when

they had realistic saber damage. You really had to be careful, because you knew

just one or two mistakes and you were toast! It also favored those who actually

had skill with a lightsaber, sloppy fighting in a duel would leave you dead

pretty quick. hehe

 

As far as the guns go, I think the biggest problems with balancing these in

multi-player comes from the fact the whole premise of the fight is ridiculous.

 

In a such a battle in Star Wars, one guy would be a Jedi Knight and his opponents

would be various bad guys with guns. But in JK we get the bizarre situation of

supposed Jedi running all over the place with all sorts of guns.

 

If you want to test the actual balance, then have the Jedi (with realistic saber

damage on) face enemies with guns, but no lightsabers and no force powers

at all, and let them loose to fight it out. Then you'll see what a fully trained Jedi Knight

can do to scum like that. haha

[jarek]

Originally posted by Dunedain

I agree with jarek on this. The lightsabers should be deadly. Not only is it an accurate modeling of lightsabers, but battles were so much fun when they had realistic saber damage. You really had to be careful, because you knew just one or two mistakes and you were toast!

 

Exactly! I remember the pull/backstab days. Learning how to execute and defend against that move made me a much better player. The lightsaber had a certain ass-clench factor because someone could kill you with 1 swing if you arent careful. And most people never took the time to learn ways to avoid being backstabbed.

 

It was easier to take the whiner route. People were complaining because a weapon which cuts thru human flesh like hot butter was doing its job well. "b4ckst4b n3wb!" Uhm, you missed me 7 times with your heavy repeater, you failed to push me off the ledge, you let me get within 2 feet of you, and then you didnt even attempt to use absorb or drain to stop me from throwing you to the ground and cutting you in half. You made all the mistakes, but I'm the noob?

 

Even if the 1-hit kill had not been the "backstab" move and instead been something else, folks still would have complained. People just dont want to see a powerful lightsaber. If more moves had been powerful like the backstab, it wouldnt have been spammed so much.

 

In the end, I just dont think its fair for a saber user to have to wack away at his opponent 3 or 4 (or more) times to get a kill. But a gunner can toss out 1 or 2 rockets or flechette rounds and get a kill. You never saw hundreds of threads on: <insert gun here> is too powerful!

[Grets Sirob]

Gunners with Force have always annoyed me... It just doesn't really work.

The Lightsaber should be the best weapon, as Jarek has said.

I also think guns should be powerful as well, close to the Lightsaber in fact. However, that power should come with a price.

If you use guns, you shouldn't be able to use Force powers. Because if you can, then you become almost invincible. Take away the Force, and you've still got a great weapon, but most of your defensive capabilities are gone.

Switch back to the Lightsaber, which is only slightly better than any other weapon, and you get your arsenal of Force back.

 

Anyways, I think the Lightsaber needs to be used more... Somehow..

[jadenkorr]

i think the best way to solve all of this would be to have a gun only mode. Like the saber only mode it made things mor equal if you wanted it to be like that.If you were play CTF the having both can have its benefits. The only gun opption gives people the chance to no have to wory about mad jedis backstabing you all the time

[Kalishnikov]

You know, for having to invest so many points into saber offense and defense, it's a pretty pathetic weapon. On the other hand, the guns require absolutely no sacrifices, so a gun user is going to wind up being more in tune with the force than a dedicated jedi. Anyone else see the problem with this? Perhaps we shouldn't take away all the force powers from a gunner, but they should at least need to spend a number of force points equal to the amount needed for full saber offense, defense, and throw combined if they want to run around with that concussion rifle or missile launcher. Spending points on your saber offense and defense skills should be a worthwhile investment, not a kick in the pants. Oh, and yay for lethal damage when your saber passes clean through someone's body!

[snowman21]

What i really want from this game is a lightsaber that works like in SP and the NPCs (one hit and theyre dead), not like a plastic flashlight that when you make a direct hit the enemy says, "ow that hurts." It could be different in duels though. So your duels are longer and look more........duel-like. Guns too i believe should be balanced out. In JK2, when someone had a gun and was shooting at someone with a lightsaber, all the lightsaber guy would have to do is pull the weapon out of thier hand and slice the guy. You should be able to give more of a challenge to a person with a saber.

[Kurgan]

I guess you guys are big "Jedi Vs Merc" fans eh?

 

Who says Jedi can't use non-saber weapons? I see no reason why they can't, especially in the non-traditional post-ROTJ era.

 

Anyway:

 

If you want to test the actual balance, then have the Jedi (with realistic saber damage on) face enemies with guns, but no lightsabers and no force powers at all, and let them loose to fight it out. Then you'll see what a fully trained Jedi Knight

can do to scum like that. haha

 

With no force, the Jedi would get "0wn3d" by the gunners, because without the force, he can't dodge sniper shots, and he can't push away rockets. His saber blocking also greatly diminishes. Again, the saberist loses.

 

If you say it has to be FF saberists vs. NF gunners, then you might have a point... but that's not balanced at all. The Jedi can just pull away NF enemy's gun and he's already won.

 

The fact is, that in FFA, the lightsaber is just one weapon among many, despite what some Jedi fanboys might want.

 

Instead try Siege mode or saber only Duel if that's your thing.

[jarek]

I wouldnt consider myself a "jedi" or a "lightsaber" fanboy. I just believe that Jedi Knight/Academy is more than just your average FPS game, because of the lightsaber and force powers. Everyone uses the guns sometimes. Thats what's unique about the game. The ability to go at it with a gun or a lightsaber. Its a variety not found in any other FPS game.

 

I kinda like the idea someone had about limiting certain force powers for those that carry a gun. Or instead making the force powers stronger when using a lightsaber. Or maybe someone takes more damage from a lightsaber attack while they have a gun equipped. But, I know that'll never happen.

 

This is an arguement that will never end. Those who want the lightsaber to be more powerful are labeled jedi fanboys. Those who want guns to reign supreme are labeled quake fanboys.

[Dunedain]

I said the guys with the guns wouldn't have any lightsabers or force, a Jedi Knight

by definition will have those things. That's what I was talking about for an actual

comparison of the way it would really be.