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The Source

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  1. ^^

    It's a good read, you wanna pick up the "SW: Jedi vs Sith: Essential guide to the Force" It's in the same line of books but more up to date and concentrates on the Force and the various groups who use it throughout the time line :)

    I didn't see that one in Borders, so I will have to look around. "SW Essentials: Chronology" covers the history of the Sith, Jedi, and Republic. I didn't realize that outside of Kreia, Nihlus, and Sion, there were other Sith fighting a civil war. When you play through "KotOR II", you never learn about the actual Sith Civil War that is taking place. I will keep my eyes out for that book. Thank man. :)


    There's far too little information to possibly make a useful or accurate hypothesis. All that's known is that the True Sith (I doubt that they call themselves that) supposedly are located in the Unknown Regions and existed at least several millennia before the "old" Sith Empire (seen in the Great Hyperspace War).

    My only issue is that I keep reading about a Korriban origin. "Star Wars Databank", "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane", and other sources keep screaming Korriban. This does not mean that they didn't relocate to avoid being attacked by the republic. I personally theorize that the 'true Sith' started on Korriban, scattered throughout the gallaxy, and then retreated to the Unknown Regions. When it comes to who or what they are, I don't think their existance is a complex issue.


    They were Sith Lords, and members of the founding group, but I'm afraid the "True Sith" is an obscure creation of Obsidian, a "geographically different group" (sucky!)to the ancient Sith Lords we know and love, and up to now features in KotOR II only.


    Remember, the "True Sith" have this name because Kreia says so, not because they necessarily are, and nobody else knows or has spoken of them before or since.

    Plus, what did she actually mean by 'true Sith'? She could have been comparing philosophies between two factions of Sith. One faction follows the teachings and meditations of the founders, and the others have a twisted religion based version of the darkside. You are right on another note: Obsidian could have been trying to create something new, so they thought up an entirely different origin for the Sith. If that was Obsidian's attempt, I would have to say, "What a hell of a mess." We have seen this before in the EU novels. Someone came up with the idea of turning the Sith into a species. If Obsidian is trying to make their mark on Star Wars, I can honestly say that I am not onboard for this 'true Sith' logic. After playing through Korriban in "KotOR I", I considered it to be the starting home of the Sith.


    Damit! Games should be for fun. Grrr... Lol...

  2. :lol: Thanks for the comment, but those graphics are all discraceful crap that has been thrown together just to see what it would look like roughly. Its just a disgusting mesh of gradients, alpha transparency and google-harvested graphics :p


    All of, if not most, the graphics need to be re-done. I guess those are more like "templates" ;)

    Nice job man.


    Suggestions Only:


    1 - Drop the body text down to around 10pts, and the headers down to 10.5 - 11 pts.


    2 - Make your copyright statement around 9pts. Header for the copyright statement should also be around 9pts.


    Everything else looks cool man! :)

  3. Has there been a writeup to explain exactly who, how and why and where the skull was removed and stolen from the rest of the skeleton in the first place? It almost would of had to have been taken off by the natives by direct order of the alien(s) who then would have sealed up the inner chamber and shut himself down inside of it. I really need this all explained to me. There just seems to be huge gaps and it really is bugging me.

    I don't recall. This is one of those, "I have to see it again" movies.

  4. I went to see it again and I pinpointed one of the things that annoyed me. It's that Indy comments on what he's just done.


    In the originals, when he made a mistake or saw something odd he wouldn't say anything, it was all carried by Harrison Ford's facial expression. When Indy misjudges the position of the car in the first scene (you know, the thing in the trailer) the comic effect is ruined by him saying, "I thought that was closer." I understand why they did it; they were trying to show that he's getting older but I think it would have been better if Ford just looked a little shocked that he'd ended up in the wrong car.


    Compare it with the opening scenes of Raiders. Indy's just been screwed over by his companion and has to leap over the hole in the floor to escape. He misses the edge and is left dangling. Clutching, literally, at straws, he smiles at his momentary success in grabbing hold of some firm-rooted grass. When the thing comes loose and he begins to slip again, he doesn't make a comment about it. It's all done in silence on Ford's part and I think that's one of the small but crucial differences in writing style that perhaps accounts for me not liking this film as much as the others.

    You are right man.


    As for some of the changes, I think they wanted to make Indy competitive. Since "The Mummy III" is due out soon, I think Steven, George, and Harrison wanted to seperate themselves from being called "Just another unintellegant archeology movie.". I think they did a great job with this one, for it showed that things don't have to be the same. When the first "Mummy" movie arrived in theaters, Indy wasn't on the radar. This is the first time that both franchises go head to head.


    Indy is a professor in archeology.

    Rick is not anything close to being educated in archeology.


    When Indy starts to run off at times, I think they wanted to show his intellegance.

  5. I was in Borders Bookstore today, and I saw an interesting read. "SW: Essentials Chronology". I am going to buy it this weekend. After reading certain historical events around "KotOR II", I can see where people came up with some of the history. I didn't realize that I missed some key elements in Sith and Jedi history.

  6. Not just funny, an entirely possible assumption given your line of reasoning.


    The errors in that paragraph notwithstanding, don't see what that has to do with your original post. Knowledge of the Handmaiden's heritage =/= desire to have anything become of it.

    In order for what I have said to be an error, there should be information to prove otherwise. At the moment, we don't have the information to support or dissprove what I said. As for my comments about sensing another Jedi, (Return of the Jedi Reference: For those who are wondering), I think it is very insightful in making the connection. If Atris knew Handmaiden's mother and father was a force user, she would also have known that Handmaiden was a potential. Atris was trying to create another Sith/Jedi enclave. In order for it to be successful, Atris would need an apprentice or set of apprentices to make it work. Since she was under the influence of the Sith Holocrons, I am willing to make the assumption that Handmaiden was in waiting.

  7. Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

    I will have to do more research on the 'Rule of Two'. I only know Exar Kun and Revan's story from the game. I know that there is more written about Yavin in Keven Anderson's triology. I will have to read more about the Sith past.


    It's possible if you don't care to gather any evidence to support the possibilities you've thought up.


    Btw, Revan was a cross-dresser. It's possible, nothing says otherwise.

    Funny. Lol...

    If I remember correctly, the Jedi can almost sense each other. If Atris had surounded herself with non-force users, she would have most likely sensed what the Handmaiden was about. Plus, the Sith usually make their apprentices suffer. Since the Handmaiden had another mother, Atris would have known who her mother was. Making the Handmaiden suffer from exposing her differences can have its benifits.


    For those of you who are just joining us, we are talking about:


  8. She wasn't any of those. Her plan was even worse than Vrook, Kavar, and Ell's; she claimed that if the Sith fought a Jedi, they would be defeated. She tried to draw the Sith out at Katarr, which led to the destruction of the Jedi Order. Good job, Atris. :rolleyes: When she tried it again ( :rolleyes: ), she still failed; Kreia was the true manipulator who led the Sith to Telos.

    Actually, the conversation between Atris and Kreia says most of the story. Kreia had her confess about being a Sith long before Kreia came around. Atris admits that she was no longer 'Atris', and the Sith holocrons have given her insight. Kriea may have been a manipulator, but it was Atris's experiences and exposure to the Sith holocrons that turned her to the darkside. Atris's emotions for the Exile were evidant of the fall, and those emotions were around during the Exile's day of exile. The Sith holocrons just helped bring it to the surface. All Kreia had to do was put things into motion.

  9. Heh. Good point. Eh...maybe she's not a Sith. I don't know... Atris certainly aren't.

    Atris is a Sith. If anyone of them would be considered a 'true Sith', Atris fits the characteristics. She was learning from the Sith Holocrons, which were burried by the ancient Sith Lords. She also let her emotions drive anger and fear. Jedi learn to control their emotions, and Atris didn't have any type of control. She was using cunning, deciet, and manipulation. She also had an a possible apprentice in the Handmaiden. 'The Rule' of two strikes again. According to Kreia and Atris's conversation, Atris was taking the mantle of Darth Trayia (sp?). Out of all the Sith that were in the game, Atris was a 'true Sith' by every way and means. All she needed to do was confess it, and Kreia helped her to realize this.

  10. You may learn that Revan and Exile fought. Revan's canon refers to a Jedi male, and Exile's canon refers to a Sith female. Either they had a love interest, and one of them killed the other. One became a Sith Lord, and the other became the apprentice. Or, they both became Jedi, fought against the threat in the Unknown Regions, and then died in the process.

  11. Bane established the Rule of Two through Revan's philosophies. It may have been around before Bane (as Revan only had one apprentice), but it was Bane who put the rule in place

    Unfortunately, I do not know the whole Sith legacy. Did the older Sith Lords who are burried on Korriban, Dxun, and Yavin have one apprentice? I do not think you or I can actually answer this question. I can only speculate that they did, and they understood this logic of limiting their numbers. Darth Bane may have reintroduced the concept.


    Revan most likely learned it from the past, and then gave his insight to Bane. Thus, the 'Rule of Two' does have its origins in the past. (If anyone is interested in our reference: "Knights of the Old republic: Darth Bane I"; Chapt. 23; pgs 282-284.)

  12. Your link doesn't have anything to say supporting you.... When in history was the rule of two actually used before Bane?

    I edited the post above you. If you read "Knights of the Old Republic Darth Bane I", you will see where I got the information.


    I was under the notion that she was neither. She reclaimed her title of Darth Traya, yes, but I still am under the impression that she is neither Sith nor Jedi.

    You are correct. She is not a Sith or a Jedi. Kreia was exiled from both orders.

  13. The Rule of Two is a "Modern Sith" invention. It is irrelevant to whatever Kreia was talking about. Revan can't be a True Sith because Revan's Sith Empire was the very thing that Kreia contrasted the "True Sith" to. It sounds like you are theorizing that the Kotor II "True Sith" are the same as the Post Ruusan Sith Order, which wouldn't make any sense in my eyes.

    Actually, 'The Rule of Two' extends to the beginning. According to Bane's study from Revan and older Sith Masters, he discovered why 'The Rule of Two' was so important.





    EDIT:: I just read that Darth Bane restructured the order, so it could survive well into the future. However, Bane learned of this advantage from interacting with Sith holocrons. The 'true Sith' of Korriban knew about the advantage of having limited numbers; thus, my logic behind the criteria still holds some weight.

  14. Sorry for my late arrival. Since I got last minute news about an open house tomorrow, I had to do some serious cleaning. I didn't get a chance to go through what I wrote, so excuse the lack of page references and such. I did make note of where you can find this information.


    My five sources include:

    "Knights of the Old Republic"

    "Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords"

    "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane"

    "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane II (Rule of Two)"

    "Star wars Database"




    Peace is a lie. There is only passion.

    Through passion, I gain strength.

    Through strength, I gain power.

    Through power, I gain victory.

    Through victory my chains are broken.


    Welcome to the ‘true Sith’ debate. Ever since we learned of the term ‘true Sith’, we have all speculated about who or what they are. Some people believe that the ‘true Sith’ refers to an actual alien species, and they are completely right to make such conclusion. According to the “Star Wars Databank”, when the original fallen Jedi arrived to Korriban, the ones from the first civil war, they were met by a species of dark force users. Over the centuries of living among them, the fallen Jedi learned all about the darkside of the force. However, the species on Korriban were only a primitive people, and they only had mastery over the darkside. If someone needs a comparison, they were similar to the Rakata in “KotOR I”. As the fallen Jedi learned and breed from them, they became what are known as the first Sith. In order to extend their teachings, they settled academies in hidden locations around the galaxy. Korriban, Dxun, Yavin, and other locations housed academies to train potential force-sensitives. Within the tombs of each location, the Sith Lords that rose up from the original fallen Jedi stored knowledge and insight on the darkside. Each Sith Lord left holocrons and scrolls to empower the next generation. If one location was compromised by intruders, mainly the Jedi, the Sith heritage and legacy will live on in other locations. When you play through Korriban in “KotOR I”, you learn about what happened to the first Siths’ descendants. Revan meets up with an ancient Sith Master in one of the tombs, and he explains some of the mistakes made by previous masters. As a result of being the birthplace of the Sith, Korriban became an academy for teaching potentials. Each force-sensitive learned from the ancient masters. According to both the “Knights of the Old Republic” and the “Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane”, potential Sith Lords and Apprentices were taught specific rules of the order. In order to become a full Sith, the potential will use the force, treachery, and cunning to eliminate the competition. Only the strongest will survive. Everyone else is killed, turned into a soldier, or used as fodder. The logic behind Korriban is to have the strongest become a Sith Lord. “There can only be one.” When the strongest eliminates his or her opposition, he or she will be able to challenge the residing Darth. “There is no power sharing.” Korriban’s history is all about the ‘true Sith’. Force-sensitive individuals are considered students.


    Five years and a thousand years after “Knights of the Old Republic I”, two events occurred that were in contradiction to the groundwork laid out by the original Sith of Korriban. Even though there were other contradictory moments in Sith history, I will only reference what the majority already know. “Knights of the Old Republic II” revolved around a different kind of Sith. Kreia had mentioned, “These are Sith with special teachings. They crave to eliminate all Jedi. They seek to consume the force.” (Loosely quoted) Each Assassin, Marauder, and Sith Lord was taught at Malacore V. Instead of learning from the ancient Dark Lords on Korriban, Dxun, and other locations, they twisted the Sith perspective into something entirely new. Sith students of Malacore used the darkside in a religious manner. Instead of seeking insight on the darkside, they are attracted to it like a beacon. Rituals were used to harness the darkside. According to the “Knights of the Old republic II”, there are several Sith Lords that share power. When it comes to the ‘true Sith’, there is only one Sith Lord and he or she does not share power. Darth Bane and Revan both understood the importance of the ‘Rule of Two’. We will get to that later. When it comes to the main three Sithish characters, they each focused around controlling the Force. They didn’t focus on using it for world domination. One sought to consume everything that empowers the force. Sion wanted to become a Sith Teacher of sorts, but he also wanted to kill everything Kreia had touched. Kriea is a fallen Sith and Jedi. As a result of being exiled by both groups, she wanted to use the Exile to eliminate the Force. Unlike the original and ‘true Sith’ of Korriban, the three Sith Lords of “Knights of the Old Republic II” didn’t follow the ancestors. Each sought a means to eliminate the Jedi, consume the Force, or to end the force. Force Zombies anyone? As we fast forward a thousand years, the ‘Brotherhood of Darkness’ made similar mistakes. Even though they rebuilt and moved back to Korriban, they still ignored the ancient teachings of the original ‘true’ Sith masters. Instead of consolidating the force, they ignored the ‘Rule of Two’ and weakened the darkside. As a result of the darkside being shared amongst several Sith Lords and Apprentices, the power emanating from each individual was similar to a car battery. Each Sith during the time of Bane was told to ignore the ancient teachings. Sith attempted to create a vast army, which consisted of both weak and strong force users. They established an order similar to the Jedi Order. Instead of allowing the strong to kill of the weak, the Sith Lords prohibited the aggressive nature of being Sith. Another break from tradition was preventing anyone from using the prefix Darth. Since there can only be one Darth, and there were several masters, they prohibited the use of the prefix all together.


    When it all comes down to the ideology behind ‘true Sith’, you have to look at their extensive history. “Knights of the Old Republic II”, “Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane”, and “The Star Wars Database” use the term ‘true Sith’ in reference to the original Sith of Korriban. Yes, there was some interspecies breeding with the primitive people of Korriban, but the term was used to point at a society of multiple species that meet the following criteria:


    1. They follow the ‘Rule of Two”.
    2. They learn from the ancient Sith Lords on Korriban, Dxun, and Yavin.
    3. They hide in the shadows and strike through cunning, deceit, and patience.
    4. They seek domination over the whole galaxy, and they are willing to kill everyone in the process.
    5. They quietly take up positions in militaries and political systems.
    6. They have others do the dirty work.
    7. They do not share power amongst their members.
    8. They seek absolute power through the use of weaponry and the Force.
    9. They feed on anger and fear.
    10. They do not consume the Force; they only seek the means to control the Force.
    11. They do not seek to destroy the Force; they only seek ways to manipulate and use it to obtain power.


    “Knights of the Old Republic I”: Darth Malek, Darth Bandon, and Darth Revan are ‘true Sith’. According to game canon, Revan was not an actual Sith. An argument could be made in the contradiction.

    “Knights of the Old Republic II”: Atris and Exile were the only ‘true Sith’.

    “Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane Series”: Darth Bane and Zannah are the ‘true Sith’.

    “Star Wars Movies”: Darth Insidious, Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Plagous, and Count Dooku were ‘true Sith’.


    Anyone who learned and exercised the teachings of the old masters are called 'true' Sith. Anyone else is just an amatuer. When it comes to Sion, Nihilus, and their army of Sith Lords, Assassins, and Apprentices, they were taught on Malacore V. As a result of twisting the traditions of the Korriban masters, they are not considered Sith in any means. Kreia was originally taught on Korriban, but she became a gray Jedi at the end. At the end of the game, Atris can be considered the next Sith Lord. However, I do not know if canon supports her survival. Since canon states that Exile is a female Sith, I would think that she killed Atris off. Why? You cannot have two Sith Lords.

  15. I wish they'd picked a more earth-bound reason for the artifact, but it worked for me, and I had a great time watching the entire show.


    I thought about that as well, and then you have to think about the other movies. Did "Raiders of the Lost Ark" or "The Last Crusade" have an Earth based explination?

    Personally, I completely loved the story. I think it is a coming of age Indy, and anyone who is a die hard fan will apprechiate what they accomplished. According to someone on the radio, Harison Ford has signed up for a fifth.

  16. Debate:: The True Sith :: Spoilers Inside!

    If you want to find out who they are, be here sunday night for the debate. I have tons of facts to be tested and examined. The answer is simpler than you think.


    At this very moment, I am reading through "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane: Rule of Two". After reading through both novels and playing both games, I know exactly what is mean by 'true Sith'. If you noticed how I used the phrase, I used a lowercase for the word 'true'. This is an essential grammar element, which focuses the logic behind 'true Sith'. Within another thread in this very forum, I laid out the ground work for explaining the meaning of 'true Sith'. Saturday night and into sunday, I will create a summary about my findings. Keep in mind that I am drawing driectly from both novels and games. "Knights of the Old Republic: Darth Bane" series explains the whole concept very clearly. Most importantly, "They are not a species." I am also going to draw connections with the main three movies. I invite all of you Sunday night to participate in an extensive debate. After I lay out the ground work, I hope you people will challange my findings. I will reference page numbers from the novels, I will attempted to remember all of Kreia's lines exaclty, and I will create collations to the movies.


    To prepare everyone for the debate, I want those who are interested in this subject to answer these next two questions.


    (Don't answer them until Sunday, so we are all here.)


    Why are the following people not 'true Sith'?:

    - Sion (KotOR II)

    - Nhilius (KotOR II)

    - Kreia (KotOR II)


    Why are the following people 'true Sith'?:

    - Revan

    - Malek

    - Vader

    - Palpatine

    - Kreia (Before KotOR II)

    - Zannah

    - Bane


    Since Obsidian tried to keep the logic behind 'true Sith' mysterious, they encrypted the whole concept in a horrible manner. As a result of their rush to meet a moved up deadline, they messed up the whole 'true Sith' concept by being too encrypted. Several lines in "KotOR II" were missleading, for they used 'True Sith' in reference to a title. I will explain more on Sunday around 8:00 pm..


    (My reasoning for the wait until Sunday: I want to write up a sumarry, which is clear and precise as possible. I want to make sure that I make absolute sense. Since there is a mess of information to go through, I don't want to make anyone confussed. Its 2:30 am where I am now. If I try and tackle the subject now, I am going to mess up in a major way.)

  17. CNN story


    NASA story


    "PASADENA, Calif. -- A NASA spacecraft today sent pictures showing itself in good condition after making the first successful landing in a polar region of Mars.


    The images from NASA's Mars Phoenix Lander also provided a glimpse of the flat valley floor expected to have water-rich permafrost within reach of the lander's robotic arm. The landing ends a 422-million-mile journey from Earth and begins a three-month mission that will use instruments to taste and sniff the northern polar site's soil and ice.


    "We see the lack of rocks that we expected, we see the polygons that we saw from space, we don't see ice on the surface, but we think we will see it beneath the surface. It looks great to me," said Peter Smith of the University of Arizona, Tucson, principal investigator for the Phoenix mission........"Only five of our planet's 11 previous attempts to land on the Red Planet have succeeded. In exploring the universe, we accept some risk in exchange for the potential of great scientific rewards," said Ed Weiler, NASA associate administrator for the Science Mission Directorate, Washington.


    Phoenix carries science instruments to assess whether ice just below the surface ever thaws and whether some chemical ingredients of life are preserved in the icy soil. These are key questions in evaluating whether the environment has ever been favorable for microbial life. Phoenix will also study other aspects of the soil and atmosphere with instrument capabilities never before used on Mars. Canada supplied the lander's weather station."






    I was watching this on television yesterday (5.25.08) and was intrigued by this. Just knowing that something that is from Earth has sucessfully made it to another planet, just is well, amazing. A lot of the people on this mission have worked a really long time to make this happen.

    After watching NASA's slow progress over the years, I am tired of their lack of vision and perspective on the solar system. If all we have is a few small rovers and orbitals racing around the solar system, we should invest in other companies in which are motivated to do more. I think these mini-projects are a waste of time and money. To be all honest, I do not think we are making enough progress in space. We need a massive push for space exploration, which we can all benifit from in both short and long term. These little probs are useless. We need to take larger steps into the unknown. It is our human destiny. One company cannot and will not determine our fate.

  18. Personally, I think the whole idea has pros and cons. One of the major cons is that it will divide everyone into smaller groups. One of the pros is that people can congrigate into smaller and more focused groups. Another con is that people will stop talking in the forums, and they will focus on the social groups aspect. Instead of people feeling as if they are a part of a major community, people will now be sperated by borders. We will become so seperated that people will start to walk away from the forums. There will be nothing to do. On the pros side of the new features, we can now block and prohibit people we don't like from participating or interfering in conversations. Instead of using and teaching tolerance, we can now act discriminately to block out unwanted participants. Sounds cool to me.

  19. Bioware may not have as good a narrative or dialog as an Obsidian work, but they do have one thing on Obsidian - Obsidian has, to date, always worked with a foundation Bioware raised. They've also got something Obsidian doesn't - A history of satisfactory endings.

    Lol... Don't forget, BioWare also knows how to manage their time and work, so the consumer will get something worthy of $30.00. Hahaha... From my perspective, BioWare is superior in both business and consumer affairs.

  20. Knights of The Old Republic: The Original - Revan's Revelation. Oh hell, the whole damn game had an impact!


    Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines - Almost everything that surrounded Jack. Lol... The ending is very rememberable.


    Super Mario Brothers: The Original - Bowser Rules!


    Duke Nukem 3D - Hail to the King Babe!


    Doom: The Origianl - Why the hell did they put the developer's head in game? Lol...

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