Admiral Vostok's plan for SWGB2

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I think floating in mid air is more Star-Wars-y. Think of the way the X-Wings rise up out of the Yavin Jungle, or of the Gunships hovering just above the ground.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - INFANTRY SHOULD NOT SHOOT AT AIRCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

First of all, for normal flight ops, aircraft will be flying far too high and fast for a rifleman to hit anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and secondly, the Battle Droids did a lot of damage firing at the N-1 in ep1 and the Gunships in ep2 didnt they?

[clonedjedi]

well 1st of all it was a TF mech destroyer that shot down a fighter. And yes in ep 2 the droids did hit one of of the sky didnt c any others get hit though.

[Sithmaster_821]

Vostok - INFANTRY SHOULD NOT SHOOT AT AIRCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ditto. From a gameplay perspective, it is essentially shooting yourself in the foot, and from a realism perpective it deosnt make sense either, for reasons Windu pointed out. Certain units (the TF AAT, the ATAT), can be special and shoot at air, but it still wont do any good.

 

Also, I dont know what game you were playing when you said that troopers were underused in favor of mechs. Ever hear of trooper wars?

 

Liked the jedi ideas, aside from some of the micro involved. The bounty hunter idea was good, although I prefer my way of signifying that they are on your pay roll (it fits better gameplay wise)

[Admiral Vostok]

First of all, for normal flight ops, (1) aircraft will be flying far too high and fast for a rifleman to hit anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and secondly, the (2) Battle Droids did a lot of damage firing at the N-1 in ep1 and the Gunships in ep2 didnt they?

(1) This is why I made it that Troopers can only shoot at Air once the Aircraft shoot at them. This is because for the Aircraft to hit them the Aircraft will obviously have to be low, and not high as you assume.

 

(2) They didn't do much at all, but that didn't stop them shooting did it? With enough Battle Droids shooting at Anakin I'm quite sure they would have been able to overpower the shields. Just like in the movies, however, a group of half a dozen Troopers will do virtually no damage at all to an Aircraft with Shields. So what's the big deal?

 

Also, I dont know what game you were playing when you said that (3) troopers were underused in favor of mechs. Ever hear of trooper wars?

 

Liked the jedi ideas, aside from some of the micro involved. (4) The bounty hunter idea was good, although I prefer my way of signifying that they are on your pay roll (it fits better gameplay wise)

(3) Well most games I've played with human players sees them (by the end of the game) taking Strike Mechs over Troopers. Late in the game you virtually never see Battle Droids or Royal Security Guards, because as Troopers they aren't that good. I feel they need to maintain a presence throughout the game, and allowing them to shoot at Air does this. There should be some reason (apart from cost, which isn't an issue by the end of the game) that makes Troopers attractive to use over light mechs. As for Trooper Wars, most Star Wars games should be such! Troopers are the major military unit in the movies.

(4) What's your Bounty Hunter idea? I can't seem to find it in your thread.

 

Where is the proof that making Infantry shoot at Air is bad? Every RTS I can think of (except SWGB, which is because it was using the AoK engine) has ranged infantry shooting Air, and it has worked incredibly well. Even your beloved AoM, Sith, has ranged units allowed to attack Air. With Aircraft playing a much larger role in SWGB2 than AoM, it seems only logical to allow the same limitations to shooting. I think it is the only way we can make Air as strong as they should realistically be without tipping the balance too much in their favour.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok -

 

1. Aircraft weapons will be larger, more powerful, and longer ranged. For example, do you think a rifleman could hit an A-10 with his 5.56mm M-16 at the same range the A-10 could fire at him with his 30mm Canon? There is a big difference.

 

2. The shots were BOUNCING off Anakin's shields, not being absorbed, there is a big difference. No matter how many droids were shooting at it, there would have been no difference, think of it like shooting at an M-1A2 main battle tank with an M-16 assault rifle.

 

As sithy said, this is bad for both gameplay and realism.

 

PS Frozted - tanks arent classed as infantry

[saberhagen]

The main reason why you never see TF or Naboo troopers in T4 is beacuase they don't get repeaters. Letting them shoot at aircraft wouldn't change this at all. Where civs do get powerfull troopers in T4 (eg Reps, Confed, Rebs) they are used a lot. Although troopers are less powerful than mechs and die very quickly in T4, they're cheap and build very quickly, especially Clone troopers with the Kaminoan upgrade thing. Combined with artillery and/or MDs they can do a lot of damage before they die (although massed artillery slaughters them before they can do anything). If I'm rebs and it goes on a long time after T4 (depressingly often in low inter games!) then when the nova runs out I usually just pump out FU repeaters and MDs, which can be quite effective until the carbon runs out as well. I've even killed AT-ATs with troopers sometimes!

[clonedjedi]

i know tanks aint infantry all i was saying no droid shot a naboo fighter down only that 1 mech did

 

PS- mechs aint tanks

[clonedjedi]

republic troops suck they may build fast but there armor is still like all the others WEAK!!! Ad by the sounds of it vostok will make all the armies center around troops Trade fed should have weak troops but the fastest production of them on the field and much cheaper. So in SWGB 2 the whole system will change I HOPE!

[lukeiamyourdad]

Actually Frosted, Republic trooper are great. They might not have the firepower or resistence of wookiee, rebel or confed troopers but being able to build them over 50% faster can give you a very big defensive advantage.

 

Vostok is not the only one to want troopers to be the mainstay of all armies(except Naboo maybe). I want that too. Of course there will be trooper wars but that's what I think is fun and indeed very star wars-y. Of course other units are a necessity in any case to win the battle.

[Sithmaster_821]

Vostok, I still see TF players and Naboo players using troopers, and not only the specialized ones. They are just really good fodder and help protect the mechs from nasty things like grenadiers, mounties, MDs. They also make for a cheap and easily replaceable meat sheild. In most of my online games, I rarely built a mech factory, opting to use troopers with supporting air and heavies if large amounts of sieging was required, even in t4.

 

AoM has ranged units attacking air because there really aren't enough air units (and a realistic reason) to include specialized aa-units. In WC3, ranged units were the counter to air (and not much else), in this game they would be incredibily weak vs air and have a large ground force. Also, Star Wars games center around ranged units, most RTS's center around melee ones. Thats giving way too many units aa power.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu - I might agree with what you're saying but as I know everything about Star Wars militaries and absolutely nothing about real world militaries I have absolutely no idea what your post says.

 

Sith - while good players like yourself understand the importance of troopers, not everyone plays like you. I mostly play the game as an ally with one of my friends against three or more comps. My friend always gets a better score than me, yet his armies are so rediculously unrealistic. My problem is I have an uncontrollable need to use a realistically composed army. He usually plays Empire, and uses absolutely no Troopers when attacking. He builds them to defend, but he turtles and pumps out mechs. He usually ends up with in excess of twenty AT-ATs and twenty Anti-Air Mobiles, with strike mechs or Dark Troopers supporting. I tell him how wrong it looks but he won't change because it wins him the game. I'd like to make SWGB2 so it is not so attractive to do what he does.

 

Thats giving way too many units aa power.

This is what I want, so Aircraft can be balanced in to be as powerful as they really should. An N-1 should be able to blow away a Droideka in one or two shots. You can't make Air that powerful without making them simultaneously more vulnerable.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - lol, okay, a short explanation would be that the A-10 carries far heavier armour, more accurate and longer-ranged firepower than a Rifleman. The A-10 could literally rip a human body to shreds if it hit you with its 30mm whereas a 5.56 would likely do very little, if any, damage to the A-10.

 

The point im trying to make is that Infantry weapons are ineffective against aircraft, so to give Infantry AA ability hurts gameplay AND realism.

 

With Aircraft, the way to restrict them while making them stronger is to use my 'Gas' idea. This way, if your enemy can restrict your reserve of Gas, your Air Force will either be grounded, or only able to conduct a few missions. This way increases both Gameplay and Realism.

 

Alternately, you have have a specific range for Aircraft

 

For more information regarding the A-10, go to

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/a-10/index.html

[Admiral Vostok]

Yes but unlike your ideas my restrictions on Aircraft don't make them annoying and un-Star-Warsy.

 

It seems like everyone thinks I'm saying "Troopers are good at shooting Aircraft". I am not saying this at all. They are quite bad at it. Allowing them to shoot at it but making them not very good in doing so makes it far more like the movies. Also we don't need forced non-Star-Warsy units like AA Troopers (again improving realism), yet we still get a bit more AA ability than only having an AA Mech (making for good gameplay). I should emphasise here that I have no dedicated AA Troopers (since they don't exist in the movies) so this allowance for Troopers to shoot Aircraft makes up for that too.

 

I am as yet unconvinced with anyone's arguments. I honestly thought the idea of not allowing Troopers to attack Aircraft unless the Aircraft shoots at them first would appease you unbelievers.

 

EDIT: Yay! 1000 posts!

[clonedjedi]

vostok do u really need to please us all? u r gonna have the odd person not liking your ideas at all its just the way it goes.

 

i really dont wanna c 20 assults on da map id rather c 200 troops

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - all your idea does is take away from Gameplay by having Infantry fire at aircraft rather than doing their job, that being ground assault.

 

Furthermore, it makes a farce out of realism, as we have seen in Ep1 and Ep2. Even without shields, infantry weapons dont damage aircraft.

 

Also, how is my 'Gas' idea un-starwarsy? What do you think cloud city existed for? Obviously, it was a gas mine, meaning that Gas is an important resource. As we dont know exactly what it is used for, but we DO see aircraft being re-fuelled, it is well within the realms of realism to think that Gas is required for the flight of aircraft.

 

Therefore, my idea improves both Gamplay and Realism, whereas yours detracts from both Gameplay and Realism.

[saberhagen]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

I mostly play the game as an ally with one of my friends against three or more comps. My friend always gets a better score than me, yet his armies are so rediculously unrealistic. My problem is I have an uncontrollable need to use a realistically composed army. He usually plays Empire, and uses absolutely no Troopers when attacking. He builds them to defend, but he turtles and pumps out mechs. He usually ends up with in excess of twenty AT-ATs and twenty Anti-Air Mobiles, with strike mechs or Dark Troopers supporting. I tell him how wrong it looks but he won't change because it wins him the game. I'd like to make SWGB2 so it is not so attractive to do what he does.

 

 

Just about any strat can win you a game against the comp. Against human players someone who wastes their resources on 20 AT-AT s will probably lose.

 

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with building the units that will win you the game. That's the whole point of the game after all. Trying to be realistic or true to the films while playing within the framework of the current game is pretty pointless as only the battle of Geonosis had large, well balanced and evenly matched armies. Any attempt to recreate other SW battles, particularly from the OT would be a waste of time as there would be no competition.

[Admiral Vostok]

Frozted - I understand that, that's why I'm not backing down.

 

Windu - I never said Anti-Air is the Troopers "job", I'm saying they have the capacity if they have numbers to fend off early attacks from small numbers of Aircraft. If you rely on Troopers as your Anti-Air guys later in the game you will die.

I fail to see how this is bad gameplay since every other major RTS does it too.

 

While I'm not arguing the Troopers are no good at shooting Air, I don't see this as basis alone to make them not do so. Workers can't hope to kill a Jedi either, but they still have the facility to do so. In the Star Wars movies I saw, there were plenty of Troopers shooting at low flying Aircraft, so I hardly see any evidence of a "farce" when it comes to realism either.

 

We've already explained how your Gas idea is un-Star-Warsy. Go and read the thread where we discussed it if you forgot.

 

Saberhagen - This is true, but I think it is important to encourage realistic play wherever possible, unlike how things were in SWGB1.

[clonedjedi]

lets just wait he hasnt even posted up his aa ideas and already u saying troops are aa

 

and saying your idea is better then vostok is an under statement vostok is based on realism to the games but still incorporates gameplay windu yours is more gameplay than anything kinda like a CnC game but with workers.

[Sithmaster_821]

Vostok, your friend would not get very far against any one that has a head on his shoulders. I doubt that that strat would work against the hardest comp in gb either, cause you need to get a strong military early in order to beat it.

 

If you have to over-power air in order to make it balanced that ranged units can hit air ones, than there is something wrong. There isnt any current balance problem with the air/land balance, and i would fix something that aint broken with some questionable rebalancing just to add an insignifigant amount of realism.

[Admiral Vostok]

I've come to realise that perhaps some of you are unaware of exactly what I intend to do. Let me compare with the current SWGB:

 

SWGB1: The only Troopers that can shoot at air are Anti-Air Troopers, who are decent at doing so. There is only one other ground unit, the Anti-Air mobile, which can shoot air, and it is rediculously good at it.

 

SWGB2: All ranged Troopers can shoot air, but they are not very good at it. There is no dedicated Anti-Air Trooper in any of the civs, so to make up for the loss of this unit it is necessary that all Troopers be able to shoot air. There is only one or two other ground units which can shoot air, and their effectiveness at doing so differs depending on whether the civ has a strong or weak Air Force.

 

So when you look at it like that, Aircraft could pretty much stay as they are and it wouldn't be overbalanced. 10 Troopers from SWGB2 will probably be only just as effective as a single Anti-Air Trooper from SWGB1. Sith, can you please point out what is wrong with that because I would have thought it makes better gameplay.

[Sithmaster_821]

10 Troopers from SWGB2 will probably be only just as effective as a single Anti-Air Trooper from SWGB1

You answered your own question.

 

And whats up with this whole elder stuff in the sigs?

[Admiral Vostok]

Anti-Air Troopers: Aha! I finally understand the problem. Nothing wrong with my design, only with your narrow vision of what a game should be like. Sith, how can you honestly believe that Anti-Air Troopers make for good gameplay? Which sounds better:

- A unit that is average at killing air, and totally incapable of doing anything else.

- A unit that is poor at killing air, but is good at killing other troopers and adds supporting fire when garrissoned in buildings and etc. etc. etc.

 

What I'm trying to do is remove the rigid de-lineation between Air and non-Air. It is totally unrealistic, and while some people on this forum don't particularly like realism I say why can't you have both realism and gameplay? Very few games have anything as single-purposed as the Anti-Air Trooper, and there is a very good reason why.

 

Elders: Well on some other thread, possibly whilst we were arguing with Viceroy, Luke's Dad made reference to the "Elder Forumites": You, Me, Luke's Dad, Windu, Corran and Phreak. So then I said we should put it in our sigs just like in the old days with the OTDC. I thought it was a good idea but so far only Windu has followed suit...

[clonedjedi]

I still think the troopers shooting air stays cause i never really liked trying to build 2 different units to hit fighters and ground forces. Its like in real life guns shoot at air forces doesnt do much damage but still that doesnt stop them does it?

 

Im pretty sure they didnt have aa troops in SW just to hit air.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok, Frozted - let's compare my AA idea's to Vostok's

 

Mine-

- Trooper = cannot fire at aircraft

- Rocket Trooper = infantry unit that fire rockets, effective against aircraft and mechs, but not troopers

 

Vostok-

- Trooper = general purpose unit thjat fires at everything

 

As we have seen in the movies, my idea is more realistic. Furthermore, it is better for gameplay.

No offense Vostok, i like most of your ideas but this one is pathetic.