Admiral Vostok's plan for SWGB2

[DK_Viceroy]

Not that i want to seem nasty but as my sig says i will tell the truth and it will set you free. That truth is that people propably don't want to put something in like that because it'll make people think you lot are a bunch of old men sitting in a shrine cross legged hovering and holding a big nobbly stick much like the setrotype of a sage. By that i mean no offence but when i hear that word elder it usually brings up that picture also people may not want to make out that they beleive they are better because they have been posting longer than everyone else or have more posts that they are better and more important than anything anyone lse could do or say. Kind of sounds like disrimination or a Bougouis Elitist and those went out with the Kaiser of Germany. Windu i kinda like your idea about rocket trooper's being good against mechs too but rockets don't overtly strike me as star warsy yes i know they've been in episode 2 bu i don't think rocket's that troopers could carry are. Maybe instead you could have a large laser cannon which can target air and mechs but not troopers because of too small a target. Though no offence but a trooper is really supposed to be all purpose. I mean no offence by anything i've said but as in my sig

 

Then you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free

[Sithmaster_821]

When I said you answered your own question, I meant that I was pointing out a severe imbalance with your idea. Look at it this way:

 

10 troopers (vostoks gb2)=1 AA trooper (gb)

 

Assuming with dealing without upgrades, 2 AA troopers are needed to kill a regular fighter. Therefore, assuming that the strength of air units isnt tampered with (from your posts it seems like it will be strengthened) that would mean that 20 troopers (on avergae, cuase some will be better and some worse) would be needed to effectively counter one fighter.

 

Since poor troopers are usually balanced with stronger troopers with resource cost and build time, it would be a safe bet to say that there will be a rough average for trooper build time and resource cost. That cost should be roughly equivilant to the generic trooper cost in GB. Therefore, in order to counter a fighter, normally people would have to build:

 

2 AA troopers, costing 140 resources, and 32 seconds build time

 

Now, for vostok to do the same thing in his version, you would have to build the equavilent of 20 troopers costing 1200 resources and 320 seconds build time.

 

Do you see now why I prefer the older way?

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu:

As we have seen in the movies, my idea is more realistic.

Tell me exactly where in the movies we see a Trooper with a rocket launcher, and I will yield this argument.

 

Viceroy:

Yes, we Elder are better.

 

Sith:

So your main problem with my idea is that there is no good way to fend off Air using Troopers? That is correct, and exactly how I want it to be. Air should be countered with other Aircraft and some special Mechs, not Troopers. And before you say this leaves you open to Air rushes, you should know that the Command Centre can shoot Air.

 

I have a very good reason behind doing this. In the movies, and as many of you have said, Troopers are not good at shooting Air. This is correct, and I don't want to change that by having an AA Trooper. Now, Aircraft and AA Mechs should be your main way of taking out other Aircraft, I made things this way to encourage Aircraft use even in those civs who don't have good Air (except the Gungans, who just may get an AA Trooper because their Air is abysmal) because in the movies we still see plenty of Droid Starfighters and TIE Fighters and Geonosian Fighters.

 

I'm trying to emphasise the use of the army as a whole, not just one trooper for one task and one for another.

 

Everyone: The first civ design, the Confederacy, is up. Follow the link in my sig.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - just because we dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there.

Hence, although my idea lacks Star Wares verification, but has realism and good gameplay, yours lacks all 3.

 

Viceroy - actually Elitism has never been ended, and i agree with Vostok on this issue

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu: You still fail to realise, after all this time and our attempts to change your views, that the real world has very little relevance to Star Wars. I mean, you can hear in space. As such, what we see in the movies IS realism, and stuff that we don't see is not realistic. As such, my idea has relevance to the movies and realism, and (I believe) gameplay. Yours is the one that has none.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - and i could say exactly the same thing to you. Although my idea for AA troopers isnmt seen in the movies, it does use interpolation.

Your idea, however, completely disregards the movies.

 

Furthermore, it is true that Star Wars is not the same as the real world. However, as Star Wars combat is based on WW2 combat (which Lucas has said himself), we have a basis for interpolation.

However, even now, infantry CANNOT shoot down aircraft with their sidearms, and hitting a moving aircraft with a rifle is like trying to hit a grape at a distance of 2km while riding a horse! (ie. extremely unlikely)

[DK_Viceroy]

and i never meant like that i meant that were a monarch had supreme power because that's what Vostok seems to be espousing. Just because he's been posting longer doesn't mean he is better in some ways it means he's worse because he's too accustomed and not prepared to change or adapt or see things from a different point of view.

 

As for AA rockets really arn't star warsy maybe an anti air laser cannon that has special targetting systems but not rockets i think of only 2 applications for rockets and they were mainly Anti-Veichular. AA was really put in for balance True star wars would never have them since the answer to an air force was well an air force.

 

Nice ideas for the confederacy but tht stuff about the fighter is so wrong your going off the GB represenattion

 

Didn't you notice the orb like positioning of the weapon and engines that makes them very fast very manoeverable and able to fire 90 degrees either side. They have sheilds tractor beams and their pilots can use their heightened sense of smell to cmplement sensor Data

 

Hailfire Droid

 

ARE YOU MAD if you claim to be a purist and lover of cannon then of course it should hit ground units to deny that is to be an idiot of course if you heavn't seen episode 2 then i'd forgive you but you so obviuosly have or you'd be saying the confederacy is EU and all.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu: You might be interpolating from the movies, but I'm going purely on the movies, so I fail to see how that is "disregarding". Your belief that I am "disregarding" the movies when I am obviously regarding only the movies makes clear to me that this argument has degraded into something stupid. Even Viceroy, who quite enjoys his EU, thinks that rocket troopers are not star-warsy. As such let's assume I'm right, so we can appreciate my civ designs.

 

Viceroy: Actually I think you'll find I'm one of the more open-minded posters on this forum. Unlike some posters, I can be convinced of a different point of view to my original ideas (though not all my ideas). I thik you're reading too much into the term "Elder". If we were called "Lords" you would have a valid point, because as you'll notice I am Lord of Purists and as such I sit on my golden throne of Star Wars Purism looking scorning the heathen EU worshippers.

 

Now, about the Geonosian Fighter: your "facts" are based on EU. While EU states the Geonosians have tractor beams, don't you think they would have used them whilst pursuing the Republic Gunship with our heroes in? While I do intend to give them shields, the shields will be weak, and lets face it in the movies they can't be that great, as they take about a million shots at the Guship before only being able to destroy it when it stops to drop off Obi-Wan and Anakin. Something I have given the Geonosians is an area effect attack, since in the movies (and this is totally overlooked in EU) they seem to have a flak-like attack, as their bolts seem to explode in mid air. This will make the Geonosian Fighters quite good I think. Also for gameplay reasons they need to be relatively weak, as they already have the best Anti-Air unit in the Hailfire Droid.

 

And concerning the Hailfire Droid, you obviously failed to read my note in the box on the side saying that it would be overpowered to make the Hailfire Droid able to attack mechs. While I am a Purist and lover of canon (1 "n") I understand that to make a game exactly like the movies would not make for good gameplay. The Hailfire Droid is already the best AA unit in the game, it doesn't need to be a super Mech Destroyer as well. If it was no one would buy Homing Spider Droids, which would go against the movies more than not allowing the Hailfire to shoot ground.

[DK_Viceroy]

I'll conceed that but as with rockets however it would have to go and reload at one point i doubt i need to state that? and as always i'm not referring to you in particular that i never do i never specifically target someone that isn't my style i GENERALISE it's just that i really don't like the fact that some people think they are better because they have more posts or have been on here longer. All it really means is that you've been on longer and have a little more experience which is easily gottenm anyway.

 

As for the stuff i espouse i still regard it as fact i would hardly post lies as my sig says i bring the truth not lies. Since something obvoiusly happened in between the movies and during the movies that couldn't be put in. you can hardly calll it cannon to go from an award ceremony on one jungle planet to suddenly freezing to death on an ice one something had to happen in between. George lucas does help out with the stuff he pointed out which stuff is fact and fits in the star wars universe and what doesn't.

As for the gunship we all know they are pretty durable they sacrifice speed for durability

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - you disregard the movies by ignoring the fact that troopers generally dont shoot at aircraft, and even when they do, it is ineffective!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Therefore, you have poor realism, and poor gameplay. How can that be good? Vostok, stop ignoring the movies and return to the light side.

 

My system on the other hand, could easily fit into Star Wars, and is good for gameplay.

 

As for them using rockets, think about it logically. A rocket would be far more accurate, and lighter, for an AA and Anti-Mech trooper to use rather than a laser, which is why the AA laser's are rather large. Besides, the confeds use rockets so obviously they exist in the star wars universe.

[DK_Viceroy]

Only 2 units used Rockets the rest Used LASERS or TURBOLASERS or SUPERLASERS just because the Hailfire Droid and The Gunship LAAT/i and LAAT/c used them didn't mean that they were commonly used they wern'trcokets wern't used because of one main obvious flaw.

 

 

 

FIRE THE DAMN THING AND UNLESS YOU BROUGHT SPARES YOU HAVE NO WEAPON

 

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu: Actually in every circumstance where Troopers and Aircraft are together, we see Troopers shoot at the Aircraft, so from that point of view mine is realistic.

 

Wherever we see them shoot, they are mostly ineffective, though obviously they wouldn't even bother to shoot if their weapons were powerless, so from that point of view mine is realistic.

 

We see no AA Troopers in the movies and in fact we have no suggestion that Infantry-held Rockets exist in Star Wars, so from that point of view mine is realistic.

 

With the loss of the AA Troopers, civs need some sort of Anti-Air defence, no matter how weak or relatively ineffective it is, so from that point of view mine has good gameplay.

 

Armies should be considered as a whole, which is greater than the sum of their parts, which means Troopers are not your primary means of defeating Aircraft, so from that point of view mine has good gameplay.

 

Viceroy is right, though I'm not sure why he thought the limited firing capacity of rocket launchers could be classed as a spoiler. Rockets just aren't that common, especially when laser weaponry is almost infinitly cheaper.

 

I hope this helps you to understand, Windu.

 

Now dammit comment on my Confederacy ideas.

[Darth Windu]

Viceroy - Rockets are used in Star Wars, therefore their use is realistic. End of story.

 

Vostok - that is rubbish. The Clone Troopers never fired at the Geonosian Fighters, the Snowtroopers never fired at the Airspeeders. The ONLY cases where infantry fired at aircraft was when it had an approximate altitude of 1 metre. Those are not combat heights.

Rockets, on the other hand, have shown to be homing, and therefore small rocket launchers for infantry anti-mech and anti-aircraft use are both realistic in a Star Wars sence, general logic and military logic.

 

Your idea takes away from realism and gameplay by having infantry do something they cannot do in the movies, and also by allowing air to be far too powerful, and infantry too weak.

[DK_Viceroy]

COME ONE WINDU we've said they ARE USED but only by 2 units and they are not infantry.

 

Hailfire Droid

 

Misslies Fire At Ground Target Only

 

LAAT/i &LAAT/c

 

Pile Driver Mass Missiles Heavy Duty Offensive System

 

 

So you see windu yes they are used but not by infantry. however using lasers against air units like the SPHAAT and the turbolasers from the films As you can see it is Star Wars Truth to say that they weren't widely used against air targets The Truth has Spoken It Shall Be Done.

 

 

 

and like i've said earlier you need to tweak em and make sure that the republic doesn't have great air propably just the gunship LAAT/i and the drop ship LAAT/c the only weaponry the LAAT/c had were the Pile Driver Mass Missiles. but the geonosain fighter was fast manoeverable and could turn on a 2p coin while it could fire 90 degreees either side of itself but only 45 degrees up and down or it would shoot through it's vital systems if i ever find a way i'll post the designs on the forum somewhere.

 

 

In cas you didn't notice Windu if you've actually watched the last half hour of the film after yoda rescues obi and ani and padme arrives and dooku's ship starts to leave padme and her clone trooper lackies fire at his solar sailer Poonwoorca112 sloop. they didn't do that much damage but they tried at least

[Admiral Vostok]

Exactly, Viceroy. This is my whole point Windu, Troopers still shoot at Air even if they don't do damage.

 

Let me rephrase what I said last time... in every circumstande where Aircraft attack Troopers, the Troopers shoot back. This is why I limited the Troopers to only being able to shoot after already being shot at.

[DK_Viceroy]

Windu please tell me are the main species in the film are they or are they not HUMAN

 

 

If you belevive otherwise i apologise but in case you didn't realise humans can riase their arms above their heads in star wars they can do this too it is logoical thereofre that they would be able to shoot at air.

 

If you had a gun were wide out in the open and an aircraft was coming in to attack wuld you shoot it even though you know that uou propably won't hit it?

 

 

Answer that question and know the truth

 

The Truth Shall Embrace You And Show You Your Error

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - with the Solar Sailer, sure, they fired at it, BUT MISSED EVERY SHOT. Therefore, your idea goes against realism, thank you for proving my point.

 

Viceroy - rockets are used by 3 units, that you know of. As i've said, just because we dont see infantry versions doesnt mean they dont exist. As we have seen rockets in Star Wars, my idea goes with realism. Furthermore, would you be arguing against infantry having lasers if we had only seen X-wings use them?

 

Finally, if an aircraft was shooting at me, would i fire back with a rifle? Absolutely not. Why?

1. Muzzle Flash would allow the pilot to see me better

2. It would waste ammo i might need in the future

3. It would impede any attempt at evasion

 

Because of the relative speed of the aircraft, the probability of it hitting me with guns is rather small, therefore rather than standing still i would be moving around as much as possible so as to avoid the incoming fire.

[DK_Viceroy]

It's Impossible It's Like Hitting Your Head Against A Brick Wall

 

AH But Your Forgetting That You Might Also Be Losening A Brick

 

Windu in the few wars that have involved aircraft if a shot actually hit an aircraft the relative speed and the impact of the bullet would do a lot of damage you just said yourself that the chance is small that you would hit it but there is a chance so why don't you just concede thet point of your own admittance. you shouild after all we are making history and it is moving fast those who cannot keep up will watch from a distance and those who stand in it's way will not watch at all

 

 

Embrace The Truth Surrender to it

[Darth Windu]

Viceroy - i dont doubt that you could loosen a brick from a brick wall with your head - it seems thick enough...

 

You seriously believe that there have been 'a few' wars that involved aircraft? LOL. Very good.

 

With aircraft - not true. During wars like the Gulf in 91 and in Chechnya, Soviet/Russian and American aircraft have returned to base with HUNDREDS of small-arms holes in them, and the aircraft have been repaired and returned to service.

 

Furthermore, in a StarWars context, we have seen that with shields up, infantry lasers BOUNCE off the shields, and the Confed battle droid lasers didnt do anything to the Gunships - and they didnt have shields!!! Hence, infantry cannot shoot down aircraft.

 

Finally Viceroy, if i thought you had any knowledge of Weapons and Warfare i would probably take you seriously, but as it is obvious you have no knowledge of this...

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu - understand that I am not saying Troopers are good at shooting down Aircraft, I'm just saying they have the ability to attack them.

 

Since the Troopers attacking Aircraft argument has migrated to Windu's SWGB2 Design thread, someone comment on my Confederacy ideas, before I stick up the Galactic Empire in a couple of days.

[DK_Viceroy]

That was a PROVERB windu it describes our struggle against your blaspehmey while it may seem like we are hitting our heads against a brick wall we are slowly beginning to knock the bricks out of your tall and once invincible fortress of Blight And Blasphemy your head is the only one that is thick since been showed the answer in 60 million different ways has no effect on your stubborn demeanor why am i reminded of your gunship idea from the last time i surfaced hmm must be coincidence that you want rockets. if a laser got through the sheilds considering the aircraft is moveing pretty fast and it's a beam it could propably burn through quite a bit of wing. I SUPPORT Vostok's idea of infantry shooting aircraft all that's needed is a discussion on the troopers to hit ratio. And as for few wars yes that's right it's only been this and the last century that have had aircraft in them so compared to the many other wars the amount of wars ast century are few compared to all the other wars in history learn to see beyond yourself not at yourself

 

Vostok your ideas are very good but i would advise giving the confederacy even weaker sea and implementing the 2 suggestions i made i look forward to your empire idea though i'm sure windu will be reading it hawk ideas ready talons poised in an attempt to rip it to pieces.

[Admiral Vostok]

The Confederacy's Ships are not very strong at all, they are mostly very slow (except the beach-head lander, which I imagine being like those in Saving Private Ryan - I'm sure Windu can tell me their exact name). Though you may be right, I think I'll tone down the Confederate Warship, so it isn't a submarine. Stealth just doesn't seem to fit the Confederacy now that I think about it.

 

As for your suggestions:

- I may up the Geonosian Fighter's speed, yet I think it should remain fairly inaccurate. In the movie they're pretty inaccurate, plus if I'm going to give them an are attack like in the movies giving them too much accuracy will be overpowered.

- I still think it is too much to let the Hailfire Droid shoot ground units. As I said this will make the Hailfire Droid far more preferable to the Homing Spider Droid, when they both should be being used.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The American lander is the LCVP Higgins Boat. No need for Windu on this one:p

 

Having fighters with flak...It's original Vostok believe me and I think it's fun but hmm...what's the area of effect of the explosion?

 

Hailfire droids should be able to shoot but should be fairly bad at it.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well the area effect is only small, just like we see in the movies, in fact probably the smallest of all area effect weapons in the game. I've thought about it and as an adjustment to the Geonosian Fighter I think I'll increase their speed but give them a small range. This way it's a bit more true to the movies.

 

I don't think the answer is to make the Hailfire Droid bad at shooting Ground. This is untrue to the movies, where it was good against ground, so the solution is to not make it shoot ground at all. And for those of you who think that last bit of logic is contradictory: if we allow them to shoot ground but they suck at it it is unrealistic, but if we don't allow them to shoot ground it is possible they can do it and are good at it but are concentrating on Aircraft... that's my reasoning anyway...). I just think it's too unbalanced when the Homing Spider Droid is a dedicated Mech Destroyer already, so the Confederacy doesn't need two really good Mech Destroyers.

 

As a side note my web page host isn't letting me in to edit my files, so I can't make the changes I've discussed... hopefully it will be sorted out soon so I can stick up the Empire's plan.

[clonedjedi]

Darth ive finally read your ideas properly and lets just say I have found a title

 

Command and Conquer Star Wars

 

dude half of those ideas are ripped off of generals, RA2 and ive noticed some WC3 in there as well no offence but its kinda pathetic I dont want to be playing a SW game and playing a CnC game plz a monk that jumps in mechs?? a royal cannon?

 

lol dont rip off others ideas until u get your own