FurionStormrage Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by the weiner dog! Software companies make patches for one reason and one reason only. To make the people who play their games happy and make them want to come back and spend more money on the sequels. Pure and simple. Software companies make patches because something is buggy. IF you have a LEGITIMATE complaint that FF S/O CTF is BUGGY, then a patch is warranted. Raven could be nice and change this for you on CTF but I absolutely don't want to see this on a dueling server... My 0.02 USD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage Software companies make patches because something is buggy. IF you have a LEGITIMATE complaint that FF S/O CTF is BUGGY, then a patch is warranted. Raven could be nice and change this for you on CTF but I absolutely don't want to see this on a dueling server... My 0.02 USD... That's obviously not true. Go glance through the version notes for JO starting with 1.02. 1.01 was mainly a single player bug issue fix, but 1.02, 1.03 and 1.04(/.05) were mainly MP balance adjustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent That's obviously not true. Go glance through the version notes for JO starting with 1.02. 1.01 was mainly a single player bug issue fix, but 1.02, 1.03 and 1.04(/.05) were mainly MP balance adjustments. Forgive me for somehow forgetting my 20 years of programming experience producing software. RAVEN did it because whiners were bitching and moaning about it. I played 1.03 AND 1.04. IMO, they both suck. So, is the purpose of the patch to make things more buggy? You can have your buggy 1.03 and 1.04 JO. I don't want to see the same mockery made out of JA. Oh, and please note that JO 1.02 was the FIRST RELEASED VERSION. There was no 1.01 or 1.0... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent They still stop moving briefly with Absorb. They just don't get pulled towards you or pushed away. It's easy to nail a sitting duck of a target. I'm more than willing to come show you in JO if you want, Prime. Or maybe Grinteh has some demos of me...hm... That's okay. I had forgotten about that little hitch. I see what you guys are saying Originally posted by Ardent Nah, the true casual gamer is all about exploring the game for interesting stuff, not really playing competitively. It's silly to try. Those of us who do play competitively usually have a lot more practice under our belts. Most casual players don't even look beyond duel for long. Although Siege is very popular, I'll admit. But mostly with competitive players. Certainly that is the case for many. But what about those of us who like to play every now and then just to have fun getting some frags? As I have said before, when I play (usually on public servers) I seem to do pretty well. I won't call myself a competative gamer though. I know there are lots of others like me. But this isn't really the issue. I've stated what my definition of a casual gamer is, and I am moving on from there. Originally posted by Ardent Nobody in their right mind would say kicking is or was at any point perfect, but removing it entirely except for the lame staff kicks wasn't the right answer. Making it a Force skill...that might have been the answer. That's kind of a neat idea... Originally posted by Ardent Kicking took some degree of skill, especially in a kick-fight. In a saber fight, the skill was mostly relegated to who could land a couple of strong hits (and knowing the saber tricks usually didn't help much). I don't want to get into a "what takes skill" debate. Originally posted by Ardent Most of the guys who want kick back wouldn't mind a smaller hitbox kick. It'd just mean a wider gap between the practiced and the "unpracticed," however. I don't mean "accurate" in terms of targeting, I mean accurate in terms of how it looks and the amount of damage it does compared to the "real word", and compared to a lightsaber. Originally posted by Ardent Well, for all intents and purposes, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy are barely scraping by as a non-Infinities entity. Possibly only because of the popularity of the Dark Forces brand name and Kyle Katarn. Fair enough, but what I mean is that the changes at least have some basis in SW. Gametypes requiring everyone to do flips off peoples' faces to have any success at all doesn't quite do it, IMO. Originally posted by Ardent It's hard to differentiate one type of terrible player from another, usually. They're both dead before you have time to ponder it, and some more fodder is usually heading your way. I'm not quite sure how this relates to JO RPGers not wanting to play the game. Whether or not they are terrible players or not is another matter. Originally posted by Ardent Is it? RPGs are a major market-share of computer gaming. Major. Heck, even LucasArts produced one. That's saying something. Ten years ago, "back in the day" you had two options: Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy. Or maybe if you were old skool you had Crystalis or Zelda or something. But most of the time, it was Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy. Now, there are literally dozens of RPG titles to choose from. You can't say that an RPGer is "different from a normal casual gamer" because they ARE the normal casual gamers. Maybe casual FPS players are different, though. Oh no. I'm not saying at all that RPGs are not popular or that casual players don't play them. I love RPGs like the Baldur's gate series and I can't wait to play KOTOR. I am refering to JO RPG players. Those that go on servers and walk around with their sabers down and chat. Well, I don't know exactly what they do, but there are many servers out there where no one is trying to kill anyone else, or trying to capture flags, and so on. All I am saying is that those who enjoy doing this are different than those who like to just hop on a server and try adn get frags for a while (those who I am refering to as 'casual gamers'). Originally posted by Ardent Why would the casual gamer care? He's a casual gamer. If it's not exactly perfect, would he even know? I doubt it. Nobody seems to mind the fact that you can run on the walls (which isn't something we see in the Star Wars universe outside of Dark Forces). Nobody seems to mind that they can flip off walls (again, unique to DF). Why should one more little thing matter? It shouldn't. Mainly because those other things do not directly kill you. Joining a game and seeing everyone doing nothing but flips off peoples' heads instead of using lightsabers or guns affects the SW immersion (I realize this immersion is much better in SP than MP) much more than flips off a wall. If wall walks led directly to kills, I suspect that many would be against them as well. However, if everyone used nothing but lightsabers, people would be happy, if you see my point. Originally posted by Ardent That's hardly true either. A knowledgable RPGer would know the second you try to make your mark on Star Wars is the second it ceases to be "as it is." I'm sure balance issues matter to enough of them that they might complain, but they're not a very vocal group on a whole. Again refering to just the "JO RPGer", and not a person who plays RPGs, they don't care about balance because they do not play the game at all. They use MP as a big chat room. Kicks and saber imperfections don't really matter to them because they never use them, and neither does anyone else on the server. Originally posted by Ardent Doubtful. It's like a car company saying "Our Super Sport car will satisfy both casual and competitive drivers." Yeah, for all twenty seconds it takes that competitive driver to get under the hood and start boring the engine block, replacing air filters, stripping and placing a new exhaust system...a competitive person wants more. Period. may very well be right about there being a solution that would satisfy both sides if that is the case. I didn't think that the problems required gutting JA. Originally posted by Ardent I mean, that's what happened in JO. Everyone played the patch they liked the results of. That worked out fine. I mean, we've got the sequel don't we? But it didn't really work out fine. Since just about everyone (from what I know) played the 1.04 patch, this ment that those who stuck with 1.02 and 1.03 had a much smaller community, and a lot fewer servers to play on. Anyone here who has suggested that competative players go back to JO because they think it is so much better has been railed against. Saying that if a new patch came out that some people should stick to the old version is sort of saying the same thing, isn't it? So why isn't that an option for competative gamers? I'm not saying they should, I'm asking why is the above different. Originally posted by Ardent However, you're obviously not a "typical casual gamer" so in the future, don't attempt to pass yourself off as such. But I think I have stated what my definition of a casual gamer is, and I fit into that definition. If you feel it is a misnomer, that's fine, I'll use another name Originally posted by Ardent It's a poor attempt to insult our intelligence. I am not trying to insult yours or anyone else's intelligence. Sorry if I offended you somehow. It seems so hard to try and make a point without pissing someone off these days Originally posted by Ardent Just represent your opinion and nothing more. Fair enough. But in that case competative gamers should not come here and say that they speak for all competative gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage Forgive me for somehow forgetting my 20 years of programming experience producing software. RAVEN did it because whiners were bitching and moaning about it. I played 1.03 AND 1.04. IMO, they both suck. So, is the purpose of the patch to make things more buggy? You can have your buggy 1.03 and 1.04 JO. I don't want to see the same mockery made out of JA. we are not talkin bout 1.3 or 1.4 to be the same as JKA,just a few change+unlock kick if u have tried FF duel or s/o CTF u will see what we are bitching and moanin bout(well...depending vs what kind of player ur playing) but again those thing just could be server option dont like kick? disable it like kick? enable it but ffs i want to see the "move costing force" gone i seriously hate that thing evrytime i use a move i gotta pay 25-50 force and once im out of force im left swinging like a retard that deal jack **** dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent Nah, the true casual gamer is all about exploring the game for interesting stuff, not really playing competitively. It's silly to try. Those of us who do play competitively usually have a lot more practice under our belts. Most casual players don't even look beyond duel for long. Although Siege is very popular, I'll admit. But mostly with competitive players. Actually, if it wasn't for us casual gamers (who you so singlehandedly dismiss) you wouldn't even HAVE a game that you could play competitively. Oh, maybe they would have made it just for you but then it would cost you a buttload of money. Maybe that would be the perfect solution... You can ask Raven to make a game that you and the CTF community would love and then you can pony up the 200+ USD the game would cost because there are SO FEW OF YOU WHO WOULD BUY IT. Better yet, just read up on Capitalism 101. You might learn the concept of supply and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by Side we are not talkin bout 1.3 or 1.4 to be the same as JKA,just a few change+unlock kick if u have tried FF duel or s/o CTF u will see what we are bitching and moanin bout(well...depending vs what kind of player ur playing) but again those thing just could be server option dont like kick? disable it like kick? enable it but ffs i want to see the "move costing force" gone i seriously hate that thing evrytime i use a move i gotta pay 25-50 force and once im out of force im left swinging like a retard that deal jack **** dmg First off, I appreciate the civil manner in which you responded. I tried to play CTF for a while with JO but it just didn't float my boat the way it played in other FPS games. The problem I have with server options is how they change the gameplay from server to server. I have no interest in being in a clan so I can get used to playing on only one server well and get owned on all other servers. My preference would be for the servers to be pure unless running mods. That way, anyone playing on a server with that mod knows what to expect. A player on a non-modded server will know exactly what to expect. A lot of my interest in JO went out the window when you had the choices between 1.02, 1.03, and 1.04. On top of that, you had servers advertised as 1.02 Duel S/O NF server only to come into the server and find out that it was a FF FFA! Very frustrating for someone looking for a very specific type of gameplay. I do see where you are coming from, but from a casual gamer point of view (and we DO care about gameplay, Ardent) it's a very frustrating situation when any server can have completely different configurations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediNyt Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Ill put my opinion quik and simple. I think mp should play just like sp, with the exception of Speed. And let server admins pick from the options menu the damage scale ie Padawan, Jedi, Jedi Knight, and Jedi Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage First off, I appreciate the civil manner in which you responded. Well,thanks Originally posted by FurionStormrage A lot of my interest in JO went out the window when you had the choices between 1.02, 1.03, and 1.04. On top of that, you had servers advertised as 1.02 Duel S/O NF server only to come into the server and find out that it was a FF FFA! Very frustrating for someone looking for a very specific type of gameplay. Well sorry to be rude like this but this thread moslty talkin bout s/o CTF and FF duel,chek out the first post by weiner he pretty much stated the prob with those gametype very well but i still got a few prob adapting with TFFA,FFA im kinda disapointed by "move costing force" and saber swing dealing crap dmg but anyway i never been a fan of 1.2 and 1.4 TFFA,FFA but i seriously liked 1.3 FF Duel,FFA and TFFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by Side Well sorry to be rude like this but this thread moslty talkin bout s/o CTF and FF duel,chek out the first post by weiner he pretty much stated the prob with those gametype very well No rudeness taken, but I am very much aware of what the thread is talking about. NF S/O Duel players in JO never had to deal with kick as it requires Level 2 Force (as I am sure you already know). ANY change in ANY of the styles changes the gameplay for EVERYONE. If you make this a toggleable cvar you are going to have admins on other servers that are not FF S/O CTF games. THAT is why I am objecting to this change. And I haven't even gone into WHY kicking is a problem. If you were to try to kick someone IRL with a sword in his hand I can bet that you would be having a sword stuck up your ass. Adding Kick, as it currently is in JO, would not be ideal. As to the validity of your other comments, I do have a problem with the DFA being a force user now. Fortunately this doesn't bother me as Red stance has basically sucked since 1.03 and 1.04 were released. Yellow stance is probably the only stance that is relatively decent in JO with the current (sucky) patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[div3rse.syn] Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 You know what? This isn't gonna work. Hex, just do your magic, release an open-source Xmod for JKA, and we'll set up 4 or more servers (32 and 16 person) that run Xmod and XMOD only FF S/O CTF games, and we'll see how popular it gets. What I don't get is why it's such a big deal to put kick back into the game. Everyone screams about the whorage of kick in JKO...but I swear to god, go into a 1.04 server right now, and you won't see a single nub using kick. Half the people playing JKO (or more) didn't even realize there WAS a kick. Why? Nobody reads the manual...so nobody except those that learn from their betters knows about kick and what it does. Why tinker around with saber damage scales and all that crap that *might* work when you could simply enable kick and make CTF playable again, or at the least make you able to pull/push with the staff kicks...something...because Raven shouldn't have even bothered including CTF in their game at this point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyehead Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 mega death! That's a name I haven't heard in forever... I used to own him too... Idiotsavant was a good kicker, about the only one I ever had trouble with in kick matches. mega death and I were about even.. No one remembers me aside from some diverse people, I guess that's because when my s/o ctf server died, I lost interest. Now I have my own s/o ctf server (I run it, LKM818.com CTF SABERS ONLY 66.159.234.202) on the west coast, so I'm definitely going to put some time into this game. I don't like the removal of a lot of things. I skipped a few pages of rants, but has anyone mentioned that DFA is frickin useless? Unless you hit someone DEAD ON, while they're STANDING STILL, you do absolutely no damage. If your saber goes through their arm, no damage. If they're doing that dual saber crouch and spin your saber kata, and you DFA right on their head, who dies? I'll give you a hint.. it's YOU. I have tried DFA'ing AFKERS! And it does not kill them. I played JO through all of the incarnations of the DFA, and I adapted to them, using them throughout.. well, not so much 1.03 The fact that it now takes 25 force to DFA, that you can't DFA in the same positions with the same controls anymore, really upsets me. I miss being able to cartwheel off of a wall and DFA, or some of the other creative ways to DFA. I have gone into rants in other threads, but I will say that Weiner dog stated everything very well in his original post opening this topic. I'd love for kick to be brought back, grip is under-powered, line of sight crap is lame. The way Saber Only CTF appears to be going, a capture should just be awarded for the team who's had the flag the longest after the time expires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage Fortunately this doesn't bother me as Red stance has basically sucked since 1.03 and 1.04 were released. Yellow stance is probably the only stance that is relatively decent in JO with the current (sucky) patch. Well,Red stance ownz in s/o ctf 1.4 not only for dmg but while swinging u couldnt get kicked but while swinging ur acceleration goes down radicaly and it gave speed rager(+dfa) a major advantage EDIT:oops i forgot to mention speed rager(+dfa) as returner and not capper....who know people might be confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius69 Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 I want to say that JO duelling was incredibly hard to learn how to play decently due to the fact that it is often difficult to determine when you get a good hit. I found myself in my first days just wildly swinging at people trying to get some type of feedback that a hit was scored. In JK:JA, it is plainly obvious from the amount of red sparks that you got a hit. I've been playing a lot of saber challenges and one guy knew how to kill several of us in very few normal moves. None of us are really n00bs, so I'm thinking the saber damage IS way higher than JO 1.04. As for the specials, the only good move is to not use a special. The rolling stab instantly kills your opponent if placed correctly, all you have to do is sit and wait for him to be stupid enough to do a kata or flip, lunge, etc... The specials leave you way too open. So, people are stabbing A LOT which is kinda gay to watch / play. Thank god for Siege because duelling got really boring because of the number of instant kill moves. JO was a lot more fascinating due to the difficulty level. I think that they need to take the crappy single saber totally out or replace its specials with something a little more sophisticated. Yellow DFA is pointless, Red DFA is harder to surprise somone with, blue is the same ol' thing. They added the instant killer forward flip for the staff, but nerfed DFAs for single saber. Either make them just as devastating or remove the single saber from MP. People are only using them right now to kill flipper/kata/barrier staff/dual users anyway or duel other single saber users. Dual saber barrier looks spectacular but you would have to be a complete idiot to think you could win a duel with it. It just says "Kill me now, I'm sick of playing. Kill me any way you think is funny." Why in the heck do you have to stop moving when doing the twirl moves? The saber battles would be so much more fun to watch/play if you could move during them like SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxVegetA Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 I still think the solution is, increasing saber damage with saber damagecale (something like that) and that servers choose a low level of force points. Actually the diference between jedi master and padawan in force points isnt in the name, running a server with jedi master (almost all the force powers) wont make the it elite. Increase saber damage and set a low force point. You can do that very easily and i really think that will solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 saber damage isn't the answer. less force powers isn't the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyehead Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Vegeta, I don't think that most people want to drop their levels of force, though that would be a possible solution to one of the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 As for the specials, the only good move is to not use a special. The rolling stab instantly kills your opponent if placed correctly, all you have to do is sit and wait for him to be stupid enough to do a kata or flip, lunge, etc... The specials leave you way too open. So, people are stabbing A LOT which is kinda gay to watch / play. Thank god for Siege because duelling got really boring because of the number of instant kill moves. JO was a lot more fascinating due to the difficulty level. Another problem with the specials is the inability to connect when you damn well know your attack should have connected as a counter-offensive. Say someone rolls at me with dual sabers and lunges, now your first instinct would be to circle strafe and slice, right? Of course. So you slice, and you think you got it perfectly... But it blocks 100%. Its stuff like that which pisses me off about sabers right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{DHU}Screed Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Yeah I DFA alot of Katas and rolling stabs but dont connect at all. I am going back to Counter Strike or dabble a little in Galaxies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxVegetA Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor saber damage isn't the answer. less force powers isn't the answer. It IS the answer you f-ucking retarded noob. Use your f-ucking brain and THINK, before diminishing others opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 hahahhahaha. don't hate us because we can adapt to players having more than two active force powers and you can't. dare i say n00b? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxVegetA Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 You can adapt to players with more than two force powers? Are you insane? you think you are good, because you can kill a player with a lot of force powers?, actually one time i thought you were good, but now i see you are just raisednoob. Your last post is absolutely out of place. I played ctf in jedi master level and also in jedi adept (the third i guess) and i kick ass in both, but it takes more skill and its more competitive with less force powers to choose and a low regen time. Dude, you just confesed everybody you are a noob, with that statement. Thats how we played our ctf matches in 1.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the weiner dog! Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by AxVegetA It IS the answer you f-ucking retarded noob. Use your f-ucking brain and THINK, before diminishing others opinion. Jesus loves you and so do we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 geez man WE are talkin bout jka and how many people told u to shut up cuz....U DONT HAVE THE FREAKIN GAME EDIT:This post goes to Vegeta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 I'm too tired to go through this whole thread, and it's probably somewhere up there already...but didn't we go through this with Jedi Outcast? and didn't they make most of the changes we asked for, thereby making the game less fun, and causing the flames to increase? I hope Raven took this site off their checklist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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