The Return of Kick (among other things)

[Spider AL]

Once again in case Raven reads the thread:

 

We don't want a premature patch that may ruin the game, just as 1.03 ruined JO! Don't listen to these whiners!

 

Jello: Writing a list of people you know online doesn't make your argument any less rubbish. And please, spare me the "democratic process" schpiel. Before 1.03, the whiners like yourself were in the majority on here. Post 1.03, the people like me arrived to complain that the game had been ruined, and WE were in the majority, hence 1.04. This time, I'm here BEFORE you get the chance to prematurely patch the game. Sorry.

 

Comm539: You just keep repeating yourself over and over and over again, ignoring the answers we give you. It's like there's a string in your back that you just keep pulling and pulling and pulling and spouting the same digitised nonsense ad infinitum. I've explained WHY your idea could damage the game and the community. So stop saying: "nobbodys explained WHY it cold damage teh commoonity!!11" Because many people have. Guh. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

 

Excellent posts BloodRiot and Furion.

[Comm539]

The assertion was that s/o ctf gameplay ends with stalemate and needs fixing.

Since theres no ways to 'learn', a new way must be added. Although admittedly a new way can be designed and coded, raven are far more likely to release a patch with a few cvars to unlock code thats already in the game.

To correct the 'Go back to Jk2' people, we're not asking for changes. We're just asking for things to be unlocked.

 

So far, all I've heard is 'people spam kicks' and 'I can't handle kicks.' Yo have ignored my argument that kicks as they were in JK2 would no longer be 'the easiest move' or the most damaging. Spamming duel sabers is far more damaging. Also, if you are close enough to kick, then you're close enough to kata, rollstab, butterfly etc. all do far more damage. To complete this, if you can dodge a kata/rollstab, you can dodge a kick.

I don't see how adding more optional diversity to tactics can ruin a game.

 

 

Excellent posts Prime, CaptainJackz, ganjalf, jello, traj, the undisputed, plazma.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

The assertion was that s/o ctf gameplay ends with stalemate and needs fixing.

 

And asserting that it needs to be done IMMEDIATELY. Patching a game is not something that an underpaid programmer can just whip up on his/her spare time. Patching needs:

 

1) Approval from management/publisher to consider creating a patch.

2) Analyze what people are claiming to be problems.

3) Assign a person or group to investigate the bugs.

4) Assuming bugs are found, create an estimate as to a) how long the bugs are going to take to get fixed, b) ensure that fixing the bugs did NOT introduce new ones (all too common...), and c) running through a beta test to ensure that the bugs are fixed.

5) Once a patch is designed that appears to work, patch needs to be submitted to distribution/publisher to ensure compliance with the copy protection schemes (if any) utilized on said fixed media.

6) Sufficient bandwidth needs to be procurred (if not enough on hand) to distribute said patch to rest of eager public.

 

Now all they have to do is sit back and wait for the inevitable outcry that the patch ruined things.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Since theres no ways to 'learn', a new way must be added. Although admittedly a new way can be designed and coded, raven are far more likely to release a patch with a few cvars to unlock code thats already in the game.

 

That needs to be tested.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

To correct the 'Go back to Jk2' people, we're not asking for changes. We're just asking for things to be unlocked.

 

Incorrect. You ARE asking for a change. That you choose to ignore that a patch is not a simple affair is what your failing is.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

So far, all I've heard is 'people spam kicks' and 'I can't handle kicks.'

 

I have been seeing more arguments than this.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Yo have ignored my argument that kicks as they were in JK2 would no longer be 'the easiest move' or the most damaging.

 

As yet to be proven.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Spamming duel sabers is far more damaging. Also, if you are close enough to kick, then you're close enough to kata, rollstab, butterfly etc. all do far more damage. To complete this, if you can dodge a kata/rollstab, you can dodge a kick.

 

I am wondering how your cappers manage to get knocked over by them if they can dodge?

 

Originally posted by Comm539

I don't see how adding more optional diversity to tactics can ruin a game.

 

Nor are you paid to see. That's why Raven is the developer and you are not.

[traj]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

[

 

 

I am wondering how your cappers manage to get knocked over by them if they can dodge?

 

 

 

[/b]

 

Maybe if you played the game we're talking about you would know.

[Comm539]

Your list of patch needs are the same for any patch. As its obviousl the game nneds patching (due to blocking, sp bugs and under pwer/ over power moves) its irelevent.

 

Obviously raven has targeted the game for less skillful, push mouse one and run, players. However, we're asking that competetive players needs are met. This isn't 'we want kicks!11', its 's/o ctf is stalemating, fcs can't be stopped. Theres no ways added, so we need a new way, or the old way back'.

 

Kicks were in the beta and therefore beta tested. Kicks are in the game. We're asking for a cvar to unlock them.

 

How can kicks be proven if they're not added. However, thinking about it logically, the arguement

Spamming duel sabers is far more damaging. Also, if you are close enough to kick, then you're close enough to kata, rollstab, butterfly etc. all do far more damage. To complete this, if you can dodge a kata/rollstab, you can dodge a kick.

means theres no reason why kicks would be spammed.

 

Fc's can't dodge every kick from an attacking group. They're also kicked from behind. Kicking works/is needed in s/o ctf, how and why it works is irelevent since you don't play the gametype.

[traj]

Originally posted by Spider AL

 

 

We don't want a premature patch that may ruin the game, just as 1.03 ruined JO! Don't listen to these whiners!

 

Excellent posts BloodRiot and Furion.

 

Yes RAVEN, please notice that Speedo AL, Blood Riot, and Furion do not want a patch, and that the other 325876 of us do.

 

Please also note that there is absolutely nothing wrong with STALEMATES in FF/SO CTF or FF Duels and that we are all just here to whine because we have nothing beter to do. [/sarcasm]

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

 

Kicks were in the beta and therefore beta tested. Kicks are in the game. We're asking for a cvar to unlock them.

 

And Raven, as the sole developer, and Lucas Arts, as the sole publisher, removed them. If they worked, as you assert, why were they removed? COULD IT BE that kicks were considered to NOT work in MP as a game imbalancing move? If you can answer that one without violating your NDA than please do so.

 

Speaking of NDAs... Why are you even talking about the closed beta? This supports you, how?

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by traj

Yes RAVEN, please notice that Speedo AL, Blood Riot, and Furion do not want a patch, and that the other 325876 of us do.

 

I'd like to see your survey...

 

Originally posted by traj

Please also note that there is absolutely nothing wrong with STALEMATES in FF/SO CTF or FF Duels and that we are all just here to whine because we have nothing beter to do. [/sarcasm]

 

[sarcasm]I am glad to see that you have conceded the obvious.[/sarcasm]

[Comm539]

I'm speaking from others assertations. I didn't watch the utd match, but I know the score.

Perhaps they removed kicking to fit in with the dumbing down of saber swings, damage, combos and hit blocking.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

I'm speaking from others assertations. I didn't watch the utd match, but I know the score.

 

Please do not speak for BTs. You're (the generic you) already trying to speak for the entire FF S/O community; let's not add another one that you (generic) cannot also back up your assertions.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Perhaps they removed kicking to fit in with the dumbing down of saber swings, damage, combos and hit blocking.

 

Perhaps so. Asking them may yield a result.

[Comm539]

I';m not speaking for them. Kicks were in the beta, fact.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

I';m not speaking for them. Kicks were in the beta, fact.

 

Ah, but you claimed they WORKED. Not fact.

[Comm539]

They were there, animation and all. How can they not work? If they were in the beta and the animation played,kcik damaged, then they must have been working...how couldn't they work? You fall flat on your face half way through kicking?

[Ardent]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Ah, but you claimed they WORKED. Not fact.

 

Well, they were the same old sloppy JO kick, but you know they had to be there.

 

Typically, an NDA expires once the product you're under the NDA for is no longer considered a beta product. There are some companies out there that maintain an NDA indefinitely, but I don't think LucasArts is one of them.

 

If you were a Lead Beta Tester you'd know that. For some reason, I'm skeptical as to the veracity...oh nevermind, you know what's coming.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

They were there, animation and all. How can they not work? If they were in the beta and the animation played,kcik damaged, then they must have been working...how couldn't they work? You fall flat on your face half way through kicking?

 

You're saying that it's there, therefore it works?

 

Okay. How's this for the stupid assertion of the century:

 

FF S/O CTF works because it's in the shipping game. All the maps are there, the characters capture the flags, etc. It must work because it's all there!

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Ardent

 

Typically, an NDA expires once the product you're under the NDA for is no longer considered a beta product. There are some companies out there that maintain an NDA indefinitely, but I don't think LucasArts is one of them.

 

INcorrect. Most NDAs expire 5 years after the product is released.

[Comm539]

Irelevant. I'm not a beta tester, nor do i have or have had the beta. I have however, seen kicking in the beta version. The animation works...so apart from damage theres nothing else to go wrong. I'm sure a damage problem, if any can be resolved quickly. The code is in the shipped version. Just needs unlocking.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Ardent

 

If you were a Lead Beta Tester you'd know that. For some reason, I'm skeptical as to the veracity...oh nevermind, you know what's coming.

 

No, I am not a Lead Beta Tester. I am the Quality Control Manager. Officially above the Lead Beta Tester. Which we don't have at my company...

[Ardent]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

INcorrect. Most NDAs expire 5 years after the product is released.

 

Your mileage may vary, but this has been my experience. I'm STILL under an NDA obligation for one company I worked for, but that's because it's an MMOG and they've got all their proprietal code and whatnot. Not that anyone cares.

 

All of the beta-testing NDAs I sign I actually check the duration on. From my experience anyway, most expire when the product is released. Closed beta NDAs usually carry clauses specifying you may not discuss the beta testing process, although you can certainly talk about the beta builds themselves (although there is gray area with discussing the changes from build to build)...

 

I mean, after all, if nobody could talk about it, how could anyone review it? Anyway, an NDA is void if you go out and actually buy the product anyway (as you're then a general consumer -- and this has been held up in court IIRC).

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

Irelevant. I'm not a beta tester, nor do i have or have had the beta. I have however, seen kicking in the beta version. The animation works...so apart from damage theres nothing else to go wrong. I'm sure a damage problem, if any can be resolved quickly. The code is in the shipped version. Just needs unlocking.

 

You don't have and never had but you've seen... Okay. Fair enough.

 

Just because it's there doesn't mean that it works. This is what I am trying to say. Could it be that Kick, as implemented in JA was buggy, not in the sense of the computer freezing every time you kicked but because it unbalanced the game in Raven's opinion? Could it be that the BTs reported an overwhelming unbalance when kicks were implemented? If so, how is unlocking kick going to NOT affect the gameplay?

[StormHammer]

You know...I can't say I've read every post in this thread, but I think I've read enough (about 70%).

 

The bottom line is this...

 

DO NOT POST ANY MORE FLAMES

 

I hope that message gets through, I really do. Because if it doesn't, those who have already posted insults in this thread are going to be banned. Consider it a final warning.

 

You can debate the topic as much as you want...but leave the insults outside. They're not welcome here.

[Comm539]

I would say there is already an overwhelming unbalance in the form of duel sabers and saber staffs. However, the most obvious oversight is s/o ctf stalemating.

 

Could it be that Raven wanted to target new or unskillful players, so removed kicks. You can't prove thats untrue, I can't prove it didn't unbalance the game. However, I do knwo there is a solution to the s/o ctf problem pre-coded (a solution that did work in JK2), therefore can be worth a try.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

You don't have and never had but you've seen... Okay. Fair enough.

 

He could have glanced over someone who was beta-testing's, or had the beta copy, shoulder. If I had a dollar for every time I've had someone barge into my workspace while I'm playing a beta build of a game, I'd have close to five dollars (who wants Dunkin' Donuts breakfast on me?!). **** happens.

 

Just because it's there doesn't mean that it works. This is what I am trying to say. Could it be that Kick, as implemented in JA was buggy, not in the sense of the computer freezing every time you kicked but because it unbalanced the game in Raven's opinion? Could it be that the BTs reported an overwhelming unbalance when kicks were implemented? If so, how is unlocking kick going to NOT affect the gameplay?

 

Could be. But why would the beta-testers in this round find things different from JO? I haven't actually checked, but I think it's a fair guess that most of them are returners from the JO beta.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Ardent

Your mileage may vary, but this has been my experience. I'm STILL under an NDA obligation for one company I worked for, but that's because it's an MMOG and they've got all their proprietal code and whatnot. Not that anyone cares.

 

Most of the NDAs I sign and all the NDAs I have beta testers sign have a 5 year clause. Remember too, NDAs that I have BETA TESTERS sign is quite different than what I would expect a reviewer or publisher to sign. In the reviewer/publisher case, the person signing the NDA is reviewing the product whereas the beta tester is not only reviewing the product but has access to knowledge of other aspects of the product, etc. that the reviewer has no need to know.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

All of the beta-testing NDAs I sign I actually check the duration on. From my experience anyway, most expire when the product is released. Closed beta NDAs usually carry clauses specifying you may not discuss the beta testing process, although you can certainly talk about the beta builds themselves (although there is gray area with discussing the changes from build to build)...

 

Then you have been very smart when reviewing projects to beta test.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

I mean, after all, if nobody could talk about it, how could anyone review it? Anyway, an NDA is void if you go out and actually buy the product anyway (as you're then a general consumer -- and this has been held up in court).

 

Answered the first part in my post above so I won't bore you by repeating it. As to being the general consumer, you are ALSO bound by the EULA which may or may not grant you the ability to speak in regard to the product's functionality. You also do not automatically gain the right to talk about features that did not make the final product. You bought the FINAL PRODUCT, not the beta. Your rights, or lack thereof, to speak about the product is limited to what you physically OWN.

[Spider AL]

traj:

 

Yes RAVEN, please notice that Speedo AL

Look, if you insist on mutilating my name, I'll just have to call you Trajic all the time. Your call.

 

Seriously though, do stop the childish flaming. You're just showing yourself up, nobody else.

 

Comm:

 

The assertion was that s/o ctf gameplay ends with stalemate and needs fixing.

That was the assertion at the beginning of the thread... now you and your friends admit to wanting to change aspects of other gametypes, and affect the whole game. That's just unacceptable.

 

Since theres no ways to 'learn', a new way must be added.

You don't know that there aren't new tactics to learn, you just can't be bothered.

 

So far, all I've heard is 'people spam kicks' and 'I can't handle kicks.'

That is NOT all you have heard from the people who are anti-premature-patch, don't lie.