Solo Saber Nerfed Thread

[Emon]

From what I've read, AL has at least backed up his opinions with some real evidence, Ardent seems to just bash it into the ground every time without really reading it...

[aValanche]

Originally posted by boinga1

[puts on flame-retardant suit]

 

 

Well, my opinion is simply this: no patch should be released or even worked on about within a month of the game's release UNLESS it is desgined to fix BUGS- crashes, lockups, and the like. GAMEPLAY patches should be thought about AT LEAST a month after game release.

 

After one week of playing, you cannot say that you know that JA is messed up, you cannot say that no new startegies will be formed, you cannot claim to know everything about JA!

 

So yes, add me to the (growing) list of those whose support Al.

My feelings exactly. I've run into a few annoying things but I'll learn how to counter them. No sense rushing a patch for 1 thing when it might screw up 3 anyway.

[Kurgan]

I genuinely like the game. Is that so wrong?

 

Oh I get it now... a rational person cannot like JA.

 

Is this a fair assesment of the argument?

 

There must be a reason for their defending it other than they like the game.

 

They must be a n00b (compared to what... people who warezed the game two weeks before release and played the illegal beta?).

 

They must have sucked at JK2. They couldn't possibly enjoy a game that is different from JK2 right?

 

They must be a Star Wars fanboy (like your Episode I example, unnamed) defending it just because its Star Wars and not because they like it.

 

They must be some kind of purist (who only likes to duel and pretend to be Darth Maul or something).

 

They must be a bad player (compared to what?).

 

 

 

Okay, let me attempt to use those arguments against myself and see how they pan out!

 

They must be a n00b (compared to what... people who warezed the game two weeks before release and played the illegal beta?).

 

Yes, I am a n00b, I freely admit that. I got my legal copy of JA on September 17, 2003. Prior to that I had never set foot in JA multiplayer. I have yet to master the game, even though I play it nearly every day, sometimes so long I lose track of time.

 

They must have sucked at JK2. They couldn't possibly enjoy a game that is different from JK2 right?

 

I played JK2 as much as I play JA now, I was a "n00b" when I got the game on release day, but I eventually learned how to play and became a decent player. I never won any tournaments against any elite clans, but then I never entered any. Whenever a patch was released, I adjusted my playing style to compensate for the changes that each one introduced. Now that JA is out I'm adjusting to the changes it has over JK2 1.04.

 

So no, I didn't "suck" at JK2, and I don't "suck" at JA (I'm still learning, but I'm not clueless either). Frankly I think people who have declared themselves masters already just have big egos. Is "owning hoards of n00bs" what makes you a master? And from what I hear, a lot of "elites" from JK2 seem to be spending more time arguing over what's wrong with JA than actually playing competitively...

 

They must be a Star Wars fanboy (like your Episode I example, unnamed) defending it just because its Star Wars and not because they like it.

 

The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were inferior to the original trilogy of films. I preferred Attack of the Clones, but I thought the "romance" was sappy and painful to watch, Jar Jar was annoying and overdone in TPM. I enjoyed them, but I recognized their flaws right away and didn't hesitate to point them out.

 

Dark Forces had no multiplayer.

 

Masters of Teras Kesaii was rather mediocre.

 

Jedi Power Battles SUCKED, period, even though the DC version was a vast improvement over the unplayable PSX version.

 

Star Wars Demolition never caught my interest.

 

Force Commander was nothing special.

 

Battle For Naboo and Rogue Squadron were fun, but simple and had dated graphics (they were console ports after all).

 

Jedi Knight was a great game but had no dedicated server support and no bots, plus cheating was a big problem.

 

Mysteries of the Sith had low quality sound effects and cutscenes and it had a few MP bugs that were annoying.

 

JK2 didn't have a lot of features I had come to enjoy in JK1/MotS and it was much slower gameplay wise. The Single Player campaign was frustrating in places and the guns combat was rather badly done (SP again).

 

JA doesn't have a First Person Lightsaber transparent skin, no bot routes in Siege, some missing sound effects in MP and a few missing moves and the SP campaign is somewhat easy with few story options (although an improvement over JK2).

 

So nope, I can see flaws in Star Wars products and freely admit that. I don't like everything that has the Star Wars name on it. I think most of the EU is mediocre crap that's just put out to rack up money off fans. Most of it is inferior to the canon material, although I do enjoy some of it, and this includes the Dark Forces series (or I wouldn't be wasting my time here).

 

I have played a lot of Star Wars games, most of them in fact, but I have only genuinely liked a few. I have also read a lot of Star Wars books and comics (well it was considered a lot about 5 years ago), but only liked a few.

 

And just so you know, I played Quake3 when it came out, but I got bored with it fast. I much preferred Unreal Tournament and played that a lot more. I got into online gaming with Jedi Knight, which just happened to come out when I went to university and finally had a cheap and fast internet connection. I'd played FPS games before of course (starting with Wolfenstein 3D) but never online, except for the one or two times my brother and I hooked up our two phone lines to play Doom2 1v1. ; )

 

But I digress...

 

They must be some kind of purist (who only likes to duel and pretend to be Darth Maul or something).

 

They must be a bad player (compared to what?).

 

I play Dueling the least of all game modes (except maybe Team FFA). I much prefer a good game of CTF or Siege. I use single, dual and saberstaff sabers, depending on my mode and the situation. I prefer Full Force rather than No-Force. I hate "honor codes" and refused to play JediMod and the admin mods in JK2.

 

I laugh at people who say "Jedi don't use guns!" or other such nonesense.

 

Nope, not a purist.

 

 

Maybe that was a strawman argument, but it felt good. I think its plain to see that a person CAN LIKE JA FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THEY LIKE IT, and not because they're stupid or a "n00b" or something like that.

 

This reminds me of hearing about Tribes, a game I never played (but still need to someday). People who liked the first 1 seem always to hate the sequel and vice versa. I don't know why, but that seems to be the consensus of people I've talked to. Maybe its the same way here, but let people have their opinions, dangit!

 

I think a lot of the tendency to bash JA comes from people wanting or expecting JA to be a patch or expansion for JK2 rather than a new game. They see it as "nerfing" all the stuff they liked and turning it into a "n00b's paradise." They assume that the game can't possibly be more fun or have more features or be better for editing or anything else that might make it a better game. They can't seem to grasp that change isn't always bad.

 

JK2 is still the same game it was when 1.04 was released. JA is different.

 

It's like when Quake2 came out. It was different than Quake1. Some people hated it and went back to Quake1, but many more people accepted it and went with it. It's all personal preference. Its like with movies... some people hate sequels, because it doesn't "capture the magic of the original." While other people eat them up. And sometimes people like a sequel better than the original...

[Emon]

ZING.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Emon

From what I've read, AL has at least backed up his opinions with some real evidence, Ardent seems to just bash it into the ground every time without really reading it...

 

What's the point of reading when you already know the sum of the post? I can pick at it bit by bit and amuse myself rather than wasting time reading another bore-a-thon about how much he hates Raven for 1.03.

 

As was said on the FK boards when linked here: I can't believe there are so many whiny 1.02ers left! To be frank, it shocks me as well. I mean, we're well aware there are some diehard 1.03ers left, but it's kind of shocking to think 1.02ers are still hating on Raven for 1.03.

 

In fact, I'm so disenfranchised with AL's circular logic I'll reply to his last bore-a-thon with a simple: nice bit of hypocrisy there, hypocrite.

 

A patch is a patch is a patch. If you're going to patch for bugs (and there are many), you're INEVITABLY GOING TO PATCH FOR GAMEPLAY. Because some exploits ARE bugs. The end.

 

I think, in summary, my points have been proven ad nauseum. But I will continue to prove them until this thread is closed. <3 SO do us a favor Kurgan, close it. My point is proven, and AL got to spam his manifesto every other post.

[Emon]

If I recall, somewhere up there you called AL a fanboy, now you're saying he hates Raven? You're not making much sense to me.

 

A patch is a patch is a patch. If you're going to patch for bugs (and there are many), you're INEVITABLY GOING TO PATCH FOR GAMEPLAY. Because some exploits ARE bugs. The end.

 

...yeah, and all AL is saying, is that Raven shouldn't run out and go, "omg whiners lets patch", but rather take their time examining the problems and fixing them. So I don't get what you are even going on about. Unless you're just debating to protect your ego.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Emon

If I recall, somewhere up there you called AL a fanboy, now you're saying he hates Raven? You're not making much sense to me.

 

When someone says fanboy in a SW-related forum, it usually defaults to Star Wars fanboy. Sorry for any confusion.

 

...yeah, and all AL is saying, is that Raven shouldn't run out and go, "omg whiners lets patch", but rather take their time examining the problems and fixing them. So I don't get what you are even going on about. Unless you're just debating to protect your ego.

 

Goes to motivation, Your Honor.

 

You guys need to get your story straight. Until then, it'll just be AL spamming his manifesto and you trying vainly to usurp my position as the most id-tastic (as opposed to ego-riffic). It was a good fight while it lasted, but you really don't have firm ground to stand on so far as logic is concerned. If there are problems, they ought to be addressed as soon as possible. Lolly-gagging around on the off chance you discover something is pretty silly when it can just be corrected with a later patch because it's now a bug and needs to be patched.

 

So WHILE THEY'RE AT IT why not add something simple like a few cvars? Okay, gg.

[Emon]

I think you are still missing the point. When I see, "No premature patches!" I see "No patches before the proper time", because that's exactly what it means. He isn't saying there aren't issues, or that they shouldn't be addressed as soon as possible, but that Raven should merely take their time, and not rush the patches out the door just to satisfy some player who is upset that a video game doesn't meet his expectations of perfection.

[FK | unnamed]

Originally posted by Emon

From what I've read, AL has at least backed up his opinions with some real evidence, Ardent seems to just bash it into the ground every time without really reading it...

 

I did the same thing, and I got the same treatment...

 

But from Al and a few others.

 

 

 

People said things like:

 

"It's a totally new game and nothing is the same."

 

 

I said:

 

 

Nope, here is a detailed list of all the swings that are identical.

 

Here is a detailed list of all the powers that function identically.

 

Here is a list of this, of that, etc.

 

I backed up the statements I made with detailed fact and begged, if not dared people to prove my statements wrong.

 

None could.

 

But instead of saying "you're right, with the exception of damage scales the single saber is damn near identical and with the exception of a few tweaks, every one of those force powers you listed are identical"...

 

I got:

 

"Give it time!"

 

"Learn the game!"

 

"Stop whining!"

 

"Blah blah I can't dispute those specific details with fact so I'll generalize and make erroneous statements but I'll do so in a way that shifts the focus off the subject and onto a more general topic like "stop whining".

 

Sorry if we have someone who is now returning the favor.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

Sorry if we have someone who is now returning the favor.

 

Doesn't mean they can't whine about it. They just need to stop doing it in this thread. >< Make a thread about how much you hate how good I am at "teh block." Because that's what you claim I'm doing: making "teh block." I disagree, I think I won this argument logically, although I may not have done it "honourably." However, your definitions of "honour" probably vary drastically from my own as mine's built on a foundation of relativism rather than "realism." Not that realism is anything more than a relative direction of thought. Effectively, I give about as much respect to your definition of "honour" as I do two piles of doggy-bag filler on a cold December night: I might warm my hands on it if I have nowhere else to go.

 

I don't hate, nor do I personally disrespect any of you. I just think it's pretty clear to a non-biased observer that I'm in the right here. My work here is done, so I will continue to put the brakes on any "argument" made contrary to mine until the thread is closed. It's not trolling, it's "maintenance of the win" as Traj would say. As I've said, gf and gg.

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

I did the same thing, and I got the same treatment...

 

But from Al and a few others.

 

 

 

People said things like:

 

"It's a totally new game and nothing is the same."

 

 

I said:

 

 

Nope, here is a detailed list of all the swings that are identical.

 

Here is a detailed list of all the powers that function identically.

 

Here is a list of this, of that, etc.

 

I backed up the statements I made with detailed fact and begged, if not dared people to prove my statements wrong.

 

None could.

 

But instead of saying "you're right, with the exception of damage scales the single saber is damn near identical and with the exception of a few tweaks, every one of those force powers you listed are identical"...

 

I got:

 

"Give it time!"

 

"Learn the game!"

 

"Stop whining!"

 

"Blah blah I can't dispute those specific details with fact so I'll generalize and make erroneous statements but I'll do so in a way that shifts the focus off the subject and onto a more general topic like "stop whining".

 

Sorry if we have someone who is now returning the favor.

 

The point about it being a new game is that it is not a JKII patch and so it never "nerfed" or "broke" anything. It should considered a new game, and since there are new additions (by at least a factor of two, when looking at the sabers), there are new tactics which were not in JKII. It doesn't take an "expert" to figure this out.

 

And as Emon said:

[spider Al] isn't saying there aren't issues, or that they shouldn't be addressed as soon as possible, but that Raven should merely take their time, and not rush the patches out the door just to satisfy some player who is upset that a video game doesn't meet his expectations of perfection.

[FK | unnamed]

Originally posted by Prime

So because I genuinely do really enjoy JA, I must be lying to myself and everyone else? Is it impossible that I could find JA to be a fun and satisfying game?

 

It is also sad that some people's lives fall to pieces when a video game feature X or Y isn't quite right.

 

I don't care if you don't like it, but don't tell me I can't like it either.

 

 

No offense but some of you "casual players" really seem to have some issues with thinking everything is directed towards you.

 

Prime, Kurgan, whoever, I really am glad you guys enjoy this game.

 

 

Get ready this is going to be a shock (no joke):

 

 

I do not want a game that has such an insanely high learning curve like Jedi Outcast did.

 

*gasp

 

Did I just say that?

 

Yep.

 

Here is why:

 

In JO, you had the "elite" and you had the "people who got the crap beat out of them".

 

There was no middle ground like there is in almost every other FPS.

 

This has mostly to do with the game play (as far as saber stuff goes) being much more complex than "point mouse, click mouse1".

 

JO was a game that you simply had to invest time in to be any good at it.

 

I have enough experience in FPS's to pretty much pick up any new game and do damn good the first time I play it.

 

I am sure many of you are like this too.

 

But in a different environment like JO, you simply had to invest a lot of time learning the differences and a lot of casual gamers did not have the desire or time to do that.

 

I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but this was also the source of a lot of frustration from that part of this community.

 

No one wants to play a game where they get murdered and massacred constantly.

 

And that was what was happening to a lot of people who could or did not invest the time to learn the game.

 

Hence the "kick spammers", "back stab whores", etc. comments were born out of that frustration.

 

That frustration on the part of the casual gamer, not us is why those two patches existed.

 

It was not people like myself, Ardent, the [div3rse] guys or traj who were being slaughtered by back stabs.

 

It was "your side" of the community, and your side who brought those patches, not us.

 

 

 

Now how this brings me to my initial statement is I do feel a lot of the "flashy eye candy" should stay in the game.

 

Why?

Because you guys like it.

 

You guys love the way the Kata's look?

Love the butterfly moves?

 

Great, have fun and enjoy.

 

I don't want to drive the casual JA fan away; I want this community to grow as big as it can.

 

But you have to keep in mind that the casual gamer is only a %.

 

There are a large number of people in any game, not just this one, who are what you call "hard core gamers".

 

For us the complexity and speed and in depth game play is what we crave.

 

To try and drive us out just because you are now happy, is just as bad as me saying "Well you all suck so you don't deserve to play a game like this, go play the Sims you noobs and stay out of JO/JA, you don't belong"

 

 

Why then are we frustrated with this game?

 

Simple, it lacks depth.

 

A base JA server really is a "safe environment" when compared to JO.

 

In base JO I could go into a server with a dozen people and even if they all came after me at once, I utterly destroyed them and it was not even funny how badly they got beat down.

 

Hell, you all have seen some of the demos I posted in the past, and that was when I was goofing around and not even really trying to rack up kills.

 

 

In JA, I'm not saying I can't go in and rack up a zillion kills in a FFA, but the "one man wrecking crew" days are long gone.

 

There is simply not enough depth in the game play, for a player who wants to invest a lot of time developing a monster game with this present version.

 

Now I really am glad you guys can run around doing whatever it is you do when you play but the fact remains there is a very large portion of *customers who do want to invest time in the game play and do want something much more complex and faster paced that what this toned down version of JO has given us.

 

 

Hence the reason we asked for *cvars.

 

You guys get your world the way you want it.

 

We get ours the way we want it.

 

 

Just as much as you guys don't want to go to servers where people are ptk-ing and gk-ing the living hell out of each other, we have no desire to limit our game play to just running around mashing mouse1 and seeing who can do the most butterfly’s.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

Just as much as you guys don't want to go to servers where people are ptk-ing and gk-ing the living hell out of each other, we have no desire to limit our game play to running mashing mouse1 and seeing who can do the most butterfly’s.

 

<---- FBS whore

 

gg

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by Ardent

Doesn't mean they can't whine about it. They just need to stop doing it in this thread. >< Make a thread about how much you hate how good I am at "teh block." Because that's what you claim I'm doing: making "teh block." I disagree, I think I won this argument logically, although I may not have done it "honourably." However, your definitions of "honour" probably vary drastically from my own as mine's built on a foundation of relativism rather than "realism." Not that realism is anything more than a relative direction of thought. Effectively, I give about as much respect to your definition of "honour" as I do two piles of doggy-bag filler on a cold December night: I might warm my hands on it if I have nowhere else to go.

 

I don't hate, nor do I personally disrespect any of you. I just think it's pretty clear to a non-biased observer that I'm in the right here. My work here is done, so I will continue to put the brakes on any "argument" made contrary to mine until the thread is closed. It's not trolling, it's "maintenance of the win" as Traj would say. As I've said, gf and gg.

 

I don't agree...you seem very confused in your direct replies to Spider Al's points...you seem to be focus the attention of the debate off of the main issue (which you have never answered with a logical answer...you've gone half way with your "relative" point, but you didn't fully address the fact that just because there are different opinions on what is an acceptable amount of time to pass before gameplay should be tweaked, doesn't mean that it is not logical to say that a certain amount of time is acceptable and anything less is not.

 

As it has been pointed out, patching a game, a day after its release, which changes gameplay, is not acceptable. It is physically impossible to know everything there is to know about the strategy of a game, with as many new moves as JA has, in a single day. To best understand what needs tweaking, Raven should wait at least a couple months, so that people can have a fuller knowledge of the different strategies in JA. By the time, as well, Raven can have patched technical issues which may have warped the balance of the game, as Vanor said.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

I don't agree...you seem very confused in your direct replies to Spider Al's points...you seem to be focus the attention of the debate off of the main issue (which you have never answered with a logical answer...you've gone half way with your "relative" point, but you didn't fully address the fact that just because there are different opinions on what is an acceptable amount of time to pass before gameplay should be tweaked, doesn't mean that it is not logical to say that a certain amount of time is acceptable and anything less is not.

 

I'm not the one who's confused here. Especially when we're talking about logic.

 

As it has been pointed out, patching a game, a day after its release, which changes gameplay, is not acceptable. It is physically impossible to know everything there is to know about the strategy of a game, with as many new moves as JA has, in a single day. To best understand what needs tweaking, Raven should wait at least a couple months, so that people can have a fuller knowledge of the different strategies in JA. By the time, as well, Raven can have patched technical issues which may have warped the balance of the game, as Vanor said.

 

If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY. If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is), then it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. If that means a patch to download the same day you get the game, then I will download that patch.

 

Look, I'll equate this again (and again and again until Kurgan obliges and closes the thread): if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened? I would. That's the end of it. The end. There's nothing more to it. If you keep thinking about it, sooner or later you're going to hit the point where your logic comes around to slap you in the face, because it's circular logic. My logic is linear. And further to the point, proven effective. Again, gf and gg.

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by Ardent

I'm not the one who's confused here. Especially when we're talking about logic.

 

 

 

If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY. If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is), then it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. If that means a patch to download the same day you get the game, then I will download that patch.

 

Look, I'll equate this again (and again and again until Kurgan obliges and closes the thread): if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened? I would. That's the end of it. The end. There's nothing more to it. If you keep thinking about it, sooner or later you're going to hit the point where your logic comes around to slap you in the face, because it's circular logic. My logic is linear. And further to the point, proven effective. Again, gf and gg.

 

You're example applies when a game has a technical bug...this is a gameplay bug, and the game is playable and it seems that a great many people don't find a problem with it. Some people don't like how certain things work, but they aren't the ones who should be deciding what should be in a patch. They can tell Raven about it, but from there, Raven is the one who should determine whether they should do anything about it, and if so, what they should do.

 

As far as I can see, Raven isn't the one who has "deemed" that there is a gameplay problem with JA...you are the one who has deemed that. Who the heck are you to tell them what their job is? You're NOBODY.

 

I think that you're just afraid that you might actually be wrong in your conclusion about JA's gameplay, so you feel you have to tell them what to do...remember, Raven has been making games for at least ten years...they are not new to this, and I think I'd rather trust them, then trust you.

[-(- -)-Pyro]

as to what ujama was talking about wrt the learning curve, i can tell you guys right away where tffa is going to end - who can use lightning/drain/energize in the most efficient combination. think about it and you should easily come to the same conclusion. the point we are making is not that ja is different from jo. the point we ARE making is that ja does not give the s/o ff player ANY viable and reliable offensive capability. this is not limited to ctf. or duel. it affects everything. a game where you can heal with impunity as long as you keep yourself on the winning side of force parity, and there is NO way to deal a continuous stream of damage in a reliable manner, is a game that depends not on technical skill, but purely in resource management and attrition.

 

all ff s/o players will remember clearly that there was a distinct separation in the methods of defense and offense in jo. while defense was pretty tedious, consisting mainly of a force management game, it could always be overridden by offense completely different in nature, by which i mean technical, skillful, and tactical. you could learn the main points of drain game in an hour. i don't think there's a single player in jo that can say that they developed the perfect offensive game. why? because it was infinitely difficult and thus, infinitely improveable. a common advice to new ff s/o players, which was given to me when i was still a "drain newbie": to be able to SURVIVE was easy, because all you needed to know was force management, but to be able to KILL was infinitely harder, because of the technical and exacting nature of a capable offense. but ja is different. the defense of force management is the same, and now, with all tactical offensive capability taken out, we can only turn to pure force management on both offense and defense.

 

the above refers to duel, but the same can be said for ctf, tffa, etc. in ctf, the defense was simple: run. the offense was of the same nature as duel: technical and tactical. in tffa, the defense was simple: drain and energize. the offense was almost identical to that of duel.

 

THIS is the problem, and it has not yet fully manifested itself, but it's clear, at least to me, that the symptoms complained of right NOW are not the what's important as much as what they tell of things to come:

 

1) competetive play MEANS that players and teams will use the tactics and strategy that maximize their win/loss ratio

2) as mentioned above, the overriding factor in this game (for ff s/o) is defense through maintanence of force parity

3) while not a problem in and of itself, as the case was similar in jo, this time we are given NO effective tactical means of overriding the defensive capabilities, as all the continuous damage attacks have been removed from the game

4) then, competetive players will have NO other reasonable choice but to use the most effective strategy - to utilize the most powerful factor in this game, force attrition, as their means of both defense AND attack

5) where does this leave the competetive community? obviously, there is going to be 1 winner and 1 loser in every game, but whereas in jo a player could override any defense of force parity by technical skill coupled with smart tactics, the only way to fight force management in ja is with better force management. note that i'm not talking about flailing saberists, but the competetive player, who is assumed to always aim for the most efficient way to win. honestly, you can strafe around all day and not get sabered once, while attacking with lightning/throw at no risk. this is what will happen.

6) take all of this together and the result is obvious: yes, all you people that say we can find new ways of winning, etc., you're right - but that new way of winning will NOT have the balance of strategic force management defense against technical skill and tactics for offense, but will be pure force management on both sides - the learning curve is nil, the gameplay is tedious, and NO competetive player wants to put time into a game in these conditions: THAT'S the complaint and if Raven ignores the competetive community for too long, it will lose that community for the remainder of ja, destroying the game's potential for longevity. i don't think there is a single player that will stick around this game for a year, or even more than a few months, if there is no hope for improvement beyond a certain low plateau.

[SuperNub]

Hence the "kick spammers", "back stab whores"

 

..1.03, still the best patch ever.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Ardent

If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is)

 

I'd rather not trust you. Saying it's "flawed" or "broken" means nothing in reality. It's gameplay, pure and simple - people are playing the game and having fun, and some are not. Because you don't find it fun does not mean everyone is of the same opinion.

 

if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened?

 

Hehe, strawman yet again. This "flawed gameplay" is not an isolated case as the vehicle belt strap is, so the analogy is useless.

 

Releasing a patch would mean changes to the whole game, no matter if it's only cvar's. People are going to use those cvar's, and for some, it's going to ruin the game for them. It's going to render the staff less effective as it currently has the only way to kick included. This is not what Raven wants, it's that obvious. They'd have to delete or edit those animations, just to please a small amount of players, and I don't think they'd want to do that.

 

Furthermore, remember the admin mods? They spread like wildfire, and left a lot of players dissatisfied with their server choices, because they did not want to play games with the silly double and dual sabers. This could very well repeat itself with kicks as an option.

 

You'd have to consider all outcomes that such a patch would result in, and weigh them against each other. For instance, right now, a lot of people are complaining about the butterfly moves as well, but imagine if in 1 month, it's common knowledge how to deal with them. If Raven patched the game now, they'd "nerf" the butterfly move as well (don't expect Raven only to cater to you alone) and take one more combat move out of the repetoire.

 

If you keep thinking about it, sooner or later you're going to hit the point where your logic comes around to slap you in the face, because it's circular logic.

 

Please explain how his logic is circular and yours isn't. I'm not sure you know what the term means here...

 

And further to the point, proven effective.

 

Such talk. Care to elaborate?

 

Again, gf and gg.

 

Ehhh.... kthxbaibai.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by C'jais

I'd rather not trust you. Saying it's "flawed" or "broken" means nothing in reality. It's gameplay, pure and simple - people are playing the game and having fun, and some are not. Because you don't find it fun does not mean everyone is of the same opinion.

 

No opinions necessary. Saber throw is broken. It gets hitched up on the ARIOCHE terrain engine and fails to return, which creates all sorts of problems. Mine wouldn't return for close to 3 minutes on the Corellian train level. I had to dodge the enemies and try not to get hit so I could maintain my saber-only win.

 

Hehe, strawman yet again. This "flawed gameplay" is not an isolated case as the vehicle belt strap is, so the analogy is useless.

 

? There's not such thing as an "isolated" case when you're talking about a car that sits in 10% of American driveways (or somewhere darn near close to that, anyway). I don't think I'm the one employing straw here. The logic remains linear whether you apply it to a car or to a game.

 

Releasing a patch would mean changes to the whole game, no matter if it's only cvar's. People are going to use those cvar's, and for some, it's going to ruin the game for them. It's going to render the staff less effective as it currently has the only way to kick included. This is not what Raven wants, it's that obvious. They'd have to delete or edit those animations, just to please a small amount of players, and I don't think they'd want to do that.

 

No they wouldn't. Unless they wanted to. And it wouldn't realistically make the staff less effective. It'd only lend the illusion of the staff being less effective, which would give the people who use it to spam butterfly an opportunity to complain about it being weak,

 

Furthermore, remember the admin mods? They spread like wildfire, and left a lot of players dissatisfied with their server choices, because they did not want to play games with the silly double and dual sabers. This could very well repeat itself with kicks as an option.

 

I made it a point of pride to be banned from any server that used an admin mod inappropriately (e.g. used it for anything besides an inuitive rcon interface), so they never really ruined the game for me. I doubt, and let me stress, that a cvar will make as much difference as admin mods did. Admin mods screwed up JO not because you could add dual and doublesabers and whatnot, but BECAUSE IT ALLOWED THE ADMIN TO BULLY EVERYONE ON THE SERVER. The end.

 

You'd have to consider all outcomes that such a patch would result in, and weigh them against each other. For instance, right now, a lot of people are complaining about the butterfly moves as well, but imagine if in 1 month, it's common knowledge how to deal with them. If Raven patched the game now, they'd "nerf" the butterfly move as well (don't expect Raven only to cater to you alone) and take one more combat move out of the repetoire.

 

It is not humanly possible to consider every side of a situation. We lack the depth of intuition to know when we've hit that "limit" that marks every side of a situation. Further to the point, we live in a dynamic world. Nobody possesses the cognitive ability to approach an issue from every side in the limited amount of time something remains relatively stable. BTW there is no answer for the butterfly except to duck away, roll in and HOPE TO GOD THEY'RE DUMB ENOUGH TO STAND STILL AT THE END OF THEIR BUTTERFLY. Otherwise you're back to square one. There is no counter for the butterfly in NF dueling. With guns it's grab a splatter-effect weapon and go to town. With FF SO action you can try pushing but it doesn't really work. One little fix would make butterfly stomachable: the inability to change the initial direction of the butterfly movement. That'd just about do it.

 

Please explain how his logic is circular and yours isn't. I'm not sure you know what the term means here...

 

I don't think I'm the one misunderstanding. I proved beyond a reasonable doubt his hypocrisy (on two counts now) and I can prove that there's no such thing as a premature patch. The only thing you have when you're talking about a so-called "premature patch" is a player clinging to his lost crutch. All of the "imbalances" 1.03 created were fixed with 1.04. Patches often correct the errors of previous patches. It's common practice. So is releasing an unfinished game, which is exactly what JA is right now, no matter what you may think.

 

As for the rest of your post, I'm afraid I can't be goaded as easily as you'd like.

[traj]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

As it has been pointed out, patching a game, a day after its release, which changes gameplay, is not acceptable. It is physically impossible to know everything there is to know about the strategy of a game, with as many new moves as JA has, in a single day. To best understand what needs tweaking, Raven should wait at least a couple months, so that people can have a fuller knowledge of the different strategies in JA. By the time, as well, Raven can have patched technical issues which may have warped the balance of the game, as Vanor said.

 

I'm sure you know that the game has been out for longer than a day (2 1/2 weeks) and we are still having the same problems.

 

It may take you a couple of months to learn this stuff, not everybody learns at the same rate however.

 

This community is in serious danger right now. (Attention Al, this is not a threat). The majority of the competitive community is about to throw in the towel on this game, and while I know that you guys don't really give a ****, and would actually make alot of you happy, I'm a little bummed out that a bunch of friends I made in JO are all going to split up into Halo and other games.

 

Server side togglable cvar options is all that is needed to save the competitive community. Casual players can still play in casual servers that they like, and competitive players can play in the servers that they like. It has ALWAYS been this way in the past, there should be no new problems with it now.

 

Like I predicted, you're either gonna lose our portion of the community, or we're going to be fragmented (as we've always been). The community will shrink, or will fragment by the same portion.

 

Either way, people are going to play where they want to play. A utopian community where everyone plays the same games with the same settings is not possible anymore. We're in far too deep. There are already servers who run different damage scales. A fragmented community already exists.

 

If we're such a small, insignificant portion of the community who should "go play another game", why would you care if we crawl into a couple of our own servers and beat the **** out of each other the way we like to?

 

I know we certainly won't bother to come to the servers that the RPGers run, and they wont come to ours. The difference is, we ALL get to play the game this way. Instead of some of us running off to Halo and the like.

 

Raven, please save the community by giving us togglable options, just like saber damage so that we don't lose the competitive community.

 

..or whiners, as you guys like to call us.

 

/cry

/roll

[Spider AL]

Three more people now, Dyehead... what is that, 13? 14 now? Depending on whether one counts me...

 

Greensmoke:

 

yes, all you people that say we can find new ways of winning, etc., you're right - but that new way of winning will NOT have the balance of strategic force management defense against technical skill and tactics for offense, but will be pure force management on both sides - the learning curve is nil, the gameplay is tedious, and NO competetive player wants to put time into a game in these conditions:

Mmm, I disagree, but I empathise with your desire for a game you consider to be competitively inclined.

 

I personally think JA is amusing, and would enjoy competing in it. That's just me... maybe the game just doesn't suit YOU? But that doesn't matter either. Wait a while, play for a while, THEN ask raven for the gameplay patches you want. Then we will all be sure about whose ideas are valid and whose are not. I'm not saying that your appraisal of the gameplay is invalid, nor am I saying it's valid. I'm merely saying that judging by all the other games that have been prematurely patched, no good can come of RUSHING JA into a gameplay patching situation. Now is too soon, by any standard.

 

You assert that the game is currently inferior to JO... that's fine, it's a separate game and you're entitled to rate it however you wish. But please, no precognitive predictions of doom. Nobody can accurately predict how a game's community will evolve, nobody. Such statements are guesswork.

 

Ardent:

 

What's the point of reading when you already know the sum of the post?

That is a question I ask myself every time I come across your name in this thread and feel the urge to read any lower. The answer is that laughter is the best medicine, and I'm a sick puppy.

 

I like the fact that you've trollishly avoided replying to my cutting, ardent-argument-destroying post, by the way. Like the ostrich, you stick your head in the sand, hoping that the great destroyer will be gone when you look up.

 

I fear you'll find that you have no legs left, when you've finished blinking the sand from your lids, however.

 

I don't hate, nor do I personally disrespect any of you. I just think it's pretty clear to a non-biased observer that I'm in the right here.

I wonder who gets to define which observer is unbiased. I guess Ardent thinks it's him. I guess he thinks his wee friends are unbiased observers.

 

In fact, I'm so disenfranchised with AL's circular logic I'll reply to his last bore-a-thon with a simple: nice bit of hypocrisy there, hypocrite.

YOUR LOGIC WOUNDS ME! IT WOUNDS ME TO THE BONE! ARRRGH!

 

You're a squid. Why? Because I said so. HA I WIN GGZ!!!!

 

 

If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY.

Those who want change need to ask themselves that question. You want change? Why? Bugs must be fixed, gameplay is an abstract concept and until it's been fully explored it should not be tampered with.

 

Yes yes, I know you consider yourself the all-knowing NG CTF0r. That doesn't break any ice with me, meladdo. You don't even care how your "improvements" might affect the larger community, so that invalidates any non-trolling opinions you might have had to begin with.

 

So who the heck are you to tell us we have to play the game that only exists in your head? You're nobody.

 

Look, I'll equate this again (and again and again until Kurgan obliges and closes the thread): if you owned a Ford Taurus, and Ford knew that the Taurus' drivebelt was so unstable it could pop and potentially damage occupants in the vehicle cab, wouldn't you want them to TELL YOU and OFFER A FIX FOR THE PROBLEM before they went in and tried to figure out exactly why this had happened?

Good choice of car. I think you're talking about a bug in the car though. Nobody wants bugs in a game. Bugs must be fixed.

 

Bugs are bugs. Bugs are errors. Bugs crash the game, bugs allow someone to use an invisible skin. Bugs cause a change of skin to lose a player a duel. Bugs? Fix them.

 

But gameplay? Gameplay is subjective. One man enjoys one gametype, another does not. That doesn't mean either of them are "right" or "wrong". What it means is that each has a right to enjoy his own gametype, and nobody has the right to demand that that gametype be changed. That is why one must wait a while and play a while before gameplay patching is demanded. Because we must KNOW that the things we ask for aren't going to ruin someone else's gametype. You say that your gametype is bogged up? That's a shame. That doesn't mean you get to risk OUR gametypes, or the enjoyment of the community at large.

 

No premature gameplay patching for JA, Raven!

 

A patch is a patch is a patch. If you're going to patch for bugs (and there are many), you're INEVITABLY GOING TO PATCH FOR GAMEPLAY. Because some exploits ARE bugs.

A bug is defined as a flaw, error or ommission in the code or resources of a game that causes an effect the developer didn't intend when they made the game. Generally these days the word refers to some UNDESIRABLE thing that the developer didn't intend when they made the game, though in the early days even bugs like rocket jumping that proved over time desirable to the community were still called bugs.

 

So do you know who gets to decide what a bug is or isn't? No? Raven. That's who. Because only they know what they intended or didn't. Some exploits may indeed be bugs, like the rocket exploit was in JO. They should be fixed as bugs, since Raven would deem them to be bugs.

 

But here lies the rub, and you've just hung yourself up by with this one Ardent, totally and utterly destroying any feeble, lingering shreds of respectability you may or may not have possessed after we finished exposing your blatantly offensive trolling for what it was:

 

The lack of (non-stance specific) kick in JA is not a bug.

 

I'll repeat that for the back row:

 

The lack of (non-stance specific) kick in JA is not a bug.

 

Why? Because Raven purposly did not include it, so it cannot POSSIBLY qualify.

 

Reintroducing kick can ONLY be described as a purely gameplay-altering choice. It can NEVER be described as a bugfix. You and your compatriots want to change the makeup of the whole game for the whole community, and create new and bettar! splits in the community, on the offchance that such a change might help you and your friends enjoy a gametype in the NEW game JA, that you don't currently enjoy.

 

THAT, is unacceptable, especially since you just don't have the playtime or experience of JA to claim to know as much about it as would qualify you to make such decisions.

 

QED.

 

Admin mods screwed up JO not because you could add dual and doublesabers and whatnot, but BECAUSE IT ALLOWED THE ADMIN TO BULLY EVERYONE ON THE SERVER.

Rogue admins and fanboys certainly did bully people... but the reason all the silly mods (not merely adminmods) that emerged for JO were negative was because they attracted certain players, and repulsed everyone else. They helped, each one, to fragment the community beyond repair. The premature patching helped more, but the silly mods helped a lot. The JK series of games is naturally slightly fragmented from the word go because of the large number of possible gametypes that can be played. No game in the JK series needs ANYTHING that would fragment it further. No silly, one-move-modifying mods. No premature patching. No addition of a kick cvar to all gametypes less than a month after release. The end.

 

I proved beyond a reasonable doubt his hypocrisy (on two counts now)

Obviously you consider that when you SAY something, you prove it through the divine force of your holy word. Obviously you are mistaken. If I am a hypocrite, you are a small squid. Why? Because if you can say something without bothering to back it up and call it proven, so can I. Tentacle lad! Rah!

 

Unnamed:

 

I backed up the statements I made with detailed fact and begged, if not dared people to prove my statements wrong.

 

None could.

Sorry Unnamed, but this just isn't so. Just because you ignored our arguments or didn't give them any credence, doesn't mean we didn't MAKE those arguments. Don't start claiming that you've gone unreplied to. Debate our assertions all you wish, but at the moment you're just ignoring them. That doesn't make your position seem very strong.

 

Emon:

 

If I recall, somewhere up there you called AL a fanboy, now you're saying he hates Raven? You're not making much sense to me.

As you know, the goal of the troll isn't to make sense, it's to try to start an argument and shout as loudly as he or she can, in an attempt to drag others down to his/her level of incompetent flaming.

 

This troll, has failed. Taste the bitter draught of failiure Ardent! It chilleth the blood as no other, I hear.

 

That's the secret to dealing with trolls really. See them for what they are, and let the laughter spring forth.

[Spider AL]

Traj:

 

This community is in serious danger right now. (Attention Al, this is not a threat). The majority of the competitive community is about to throw in the towel on this game, and while I know that you guys don't really give a ****, and would actually make alot of you happy, I'm a little bummed out that a bunch of friends I made in JO are all going to split up into Halo and other games.

It wouldn't make me happy. But I have to tell you, if you expected your clan and all your JO NG CTF friends to step with you into a utopian land of eternal JA NG CTF, you were misguided. I've run my clan for years and years. The makeup of my clan has changed with EACH game. I was lucky I enjoyed JO almost as much as I enjoyed JK, otherwise I would have left, as many of our members did.

 

Groups don't translate well between games.

 

There are already servers who run different damage scales. A fragmented community already exists.

That is not an excuse for wilfully fragmenting it further.

 

If we're such a small, insignificant portion of the community who should "go play another game", why would you care if we crawl into a couple of our own servers and beat the **** out of each other the way we like to?

That would be fine, but you're trying to affect everyone else's gametypes in addition to your own. That's not fine. For that purpose, you must wait a goodly length of time and be certain that your changes will not adversely affect the gameplay of other modes, while possibly improving your own.

[traj]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Wait a while, play for a while, THEN ask raven for the gameplay patches you want.

 

Awhile. (One word buddy /wink)

 

/sigh

 

Awhile?

 

And obviously, YOU get to determine when we can finally ask for our patches. Please let us know when YOU have made up YOUR mind as to when we can decide that our gameplay needs help. We've been discussing this in here since the game came out, nothing has changed. Maybe when Al decides that we actually have a point, he'll let us know. /crosses fingers

 

Would a year be long enough AL? [insert smug answer here]. No, YOU have determined that 2 months is sufficient time to begin considering a patch. Thanks for letting us all know what we should and shouldn't do, and when we should and shouldn't do it.

[insert smug your welcome /smiley here.]

[Prime]

Originally posted by Ardent

When someone says fanboy in a SW-related forum, it usually defaults to Star Wars fanboy. Sorry for any confusion.

Actually, if you had been around these boards since the JO days (not saying you should have been), then you would have seen that traditionally Al has been very anti-SW-fanboy. He may have changed his views of late, but last I saw he cares little for how JO/JA captures the essense of the movies. He only cares about the game itself and how it fits into the Dark Forces series. Al can correct me if I am wrong about this.

 

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

No offense but some of you "casual players" really seem to have some issues with thinking everything is directed towards you.

It may not have been directed at us, but when you say something like, "It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game," I assume it is directed at me (or those like me) because I do like the game. You seemed to diss anyone who likes the game, and that means me. There wasn't anything there that makes me think it isn't directed at me. That's all

 

Originally posted by Ardent

If a game developer deems a game needs a gameplay patch from day one, who the heck are you to tell them they're wrong? You're NOBODY. If gameplay is flawed from day one (and trust me, it is), then it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. If that means a patch to download the same day you get the game, then I will download that patch.

By that logic who the heck are you to say that Raven is wrong for not releasing a patch? You're a NOBODY. If Raven feels that gameplay isn't overly flawed from day one (and for all we know this might be how they feel) they might not think it is necessary to release a gameplay patch, at least not right away. If that means we have to wait for a few months then we will have to wait.