razorace Posted November 15, 2003 Share Posted November 15, 2003 If you added additional waypoint tags it should work. I can't imagine you needing that many since you'll want all classes to travel to the same areas anyway. The key is to make the objectives a priorty for the bots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azymn Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan The major obstacle in implementing bots in Siege is 3 fold, 1. It's not coded for bots 2. Bots react to environmental stimulas while navigating 3. JA uses a node branching system for bot routing so you can't flag specific waypoints for each class. 1. I'll take care of that. 2. That too. 3. Originally posted by RazorAce If you added additional waypoint tags it should work. I can't imagine you needing that many since you'll want all classes to travel to the same areas anyway. The key is to make the objectives a priorty for the bots. I agree there are obstacles - If it comes to it, i'll learn to do the node mapping myself, but it would be better for someone experienced with it to handle it first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 As for bots "not being coded for Siege" I am not sure about that. For one thing every time you load a Siege map, look in the console, you'll see an error message saying "bot route data not found for <name of map>" this indicates it is definately checking for bots. You can manually spawn in bots as well but they exhibit familiar "bot route not found" jumpy random behavior. For now I say take a good Siege player and demo him running through the various objectives and completing the map by himself. Use that as a basis for a route. Then do another possible route through the objectives, etc. The main benefit of bot routes for Siege would be to help beginners. I don't know how many times I've had to go through the map to show them how to complete objectives. Second, team imbalances are a huge problem, again because bots are useless (jumpy bots anyway) after the first objective. At least routed (and ordered) bots would help fill out that one empty spot until a human joins. As it is the bots either jump around randomly or suicide over and over. ANYTHING is better than that... but I would think it would be possible to do, Raven just deemed that they didn't have time to do it right in the time they had to release the game (a rather short dev cycle and probably limited budget). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 As to not flagging for class could it be done like this? Just bear with me as I am not experienced in the actual coding: Example (I'll start with Hoth examples): 1) bot runs up to cave on Siege Hoth. A - If way is unobstructed he should run though. B - If rocks are in his way he should Force Jump over (since Jedi can get across easiest). C - If he lacks Force Jump, he should use his EWEB to cut through (Assault does it second easiest). D - If he lacks an EWEB he should use is Det Packs (Demoltionist does it third easiest). F - If he lacks Det Packs he should look for a "low point" to jump repeatedly to scramble over (all other classes, hardest). Now the only this is to get the Tech to head for the switch instead of the cave. Maybe if the switch is clear but the cave is not, he should try that first? Or if he's down to step F he should try the Switch first? 2) bot runs over to lefthand switch protecting Ion Station on Siege Hoth. A - If he has "hacking ability" (tech) he should hold down "use" to hack the switch when the coast is clear (ie: he's not being shot at). B - If he can't "hack it" (all other classes) he should avoid the switch or cover the player who is hacking it. 3) bot runs forward and sees big ravine ahead of him. A - If he has Force Jump he should leap across and head for Bunker (to throw switch and extend bridge). B - If he lacks Force Jump he should try the cave or the switch (cave should have priority) or wait for the bridge to become extended before attempting to cross. Stuff like that. For Siege Korriban it would come down to having access to certain force powers or katas or explosives that would determine what a bot does in what situation. Dark Jedi Demolitionists should use their explosives to set traps (but how to keep them from blowing up their comrades?). Perhaps making them say_team "Mining entrance to Red/Blue/Green Crystal Room" automatically each time would cover that. In fact, "chatty team bots" would be excellent if that could be coded in. "Defending the base, leader." "Attacking the primary objective sir" etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azymn Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan The main benefit of bot routes for Siege would be to help beginners... Second, team imbalances are a huge problem, again because bots are useless (jumpy bots anyway) after the first objective. At least routed (and ordered) bots would help fill out that one empty spot until a human joins. Amen. They don't have to be as good as human players, they just have to act as pathfinders/support to each objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azymn Posted November 16, 2003 Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan In fact, "chatty team bots" would be excellent if that could be coded in. "Defending the base, leader." "Attacking the primary objective sir" etc. Sounds like a great debug statement - and a natural thing to add. How long would it take to add proper bot routes to a Siege map just to see what the bots do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted November 16, 2003 Author Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by Azymn 1. I'll take care of that. 2. That too. 3. I agree there are obstacles - If it comes to it, i'll learn to do the node mapping myself, but it would be better for someone experienced with it to handle it first. 1. Okay 2. Who wants bots that don't react? 3. So, your going to totally rewrite the code for routing? You can route Siege maps now by devmapping into them. But, the only way to test the route is to add bots via the menu after the devmap. However, that method defaults the map to FFA mode and certain map objectives (like doors that have to be opened) by whatever method in Siege mode, don't work after the devmap. So...even when a Siege map is routed the bots can't navigate the whole map. Routing them with the current routing system that is in place is the easy part, it's the other issues that need to be solved, but those are class based and objectives set in the map editor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 You can route Siege maps now by devmapping into them. But, the only way to test the route is to add bots via the menu after the devmap. However, that method defaults the map to FFA mode and certain map objectives (like doors that have to be opened) by whatever method in Siege mode, don't work after the devmap. I originally had problems doing this (haven't tried with the patch yet) but it IS possible to devmap a siege map into siege mode (NOT FFA)! Trust me on this I've done it many times and have screenshots to prove it. In the console try this: g_gametype 7 devmap mp/siege_hoth If it fails, type both lines again until you get into the siege map IN SIEGE MODE with Cheats Enabled. Remember with the patch devmap is somewhat flaky and doesn't work every single time properly, but with repeated attempts it WILL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azymn Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan 1. Okay 2. Who wants bots that don't react? 3. So, your going to totally rewrite the code for routing? 2. Whoever said anything about turning off bot reactions? 3. I don't believe anything will require a 'total rewrite'. I just wanna put bots in Siege. Regardless of what we debate about, it just comes down to my ability and implementation. As far as I can tell, even a simple set of routes will do for testing purposes, without any additional flags in the nodes - they just need to put bots in range to complete their objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Azymn 2. Whoever said anything about turning off bot reactions? 3. I don't believe anything will require a 'total rewrite'. I just wanna put bots in Siege. Regardless of what we debate about, it just comes down to my ability and implementation. As far as I can tell, even a simple set of routes will do for testing purposes, without any additional flags in the nodes - they just need to put bots in range to complete their objectives. Okay, my appologies, I misunderstood. As I said routing a Siege map is real easy. Once you actually route one you will understand the problems you face getting them to navigate the entire map until certain class human players complete certain objectives. Have fun and best of luck. I hope you get it working soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan A - If he has "hacking ability" (tech) he should hold down "use" to hack the switch when the coast is clear (ie: he's not being shot at). Well, I take a more 'kamikaze' approach when playing Siege. From my perspective, i'll do what I have to do in order to get past each obstacle - and if that means simply ignoring getting shot at, while still plugging away at the obstacle, then that's what I do. Because I know another member of my team can come in behind me after I die and complete the work on that objective until I respawn. For example, if I'm in the AT-ST on Hoth, I'll just keep shooting at the Shield Generator until it's down - regardless of enemy attacks against me. On desert, I just keep firing at the gate in the Rancor arena, regardless of whether I'm being shot at. Because for every second I'm firing, it's stripping those defences down - whereas I could waste a minute trying to deal with enemy aggressors. If I give up on an objective to try and save my own skin...then I'm simply wasting time, and delaying the advance of the team. Of course...this only applies if I find myself alone tackling an objective. It's always better to have someone watching your back. Which brings me to the other point I was going to make about bot behaviour - maybe they should form part of a 'tag team' with a human player. So the human player either provides cover for the bot - or vice versa. And thinking about it logically, I think bots could probably be coded easier for defence, rather than attack - because once they reach a particular objective, they only really have to worry about killing attacking players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azymn Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan Okay, my appologies, I misunderstood. As I said routing a Siege map is real easy. Once you actually route one you will understand the problems you face getting them to navigate the entire map until certain class human players complete certain objectives. Have fun and best of luck. I hope you get it working soon. Thanks Kaan, no apology necessary. I totally agree with you on the difficulties of Siege bot AI: I hope i get it working, period. =] And I look forward to more of your improved botroute maps as well - some people don't appreciate how much node placement affects AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Good points SH. So really there are many ways to go about it. Best of luck guys! I'll be awaiting the results with baited breath... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted November 26, 2003 Author Share Posted November 26, 2003 Kurgan if you would be so kind, please check your pm's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted November 27, 2003 Author Share Posted November 27, 2003 To all interested, the improved CTF bot routes have been released and can be downloaded at Jediknight.net FFA routes coming next. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strideur Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Sweet, I'll give them a go ASAP. Thanks:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Great job, the CTF bots on 2, 3 & 5 do much better! Can't wait to see the Siege and FFA's you've got planned... ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Remind me to force Kaia to add the CTF maps to the rotation. Somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Thanks to Darth T-Bone and Darth Kaan for all your hard work! These were immediately uploaded to both Chop Shop servers. If you do duel maps, please do mp/duel6 first. It's the biggest duel map and the bots get totally lost on it. The high level of detail in the map drops FPS significantly, but it makes a nice saber-only FFA or Team FFA map when you get sick of the standard FFA maps. Better bot routing would help alot. Can't wait for the FFA routes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted November 28, 2003 Author Share Posted November 28, 2003 Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop Thanks to Darth T-Bone and Darth Kaan for all your hard work! These were immediately uploaded to both Chop Shop servers. If you do duel maps, please do mp/duel6 first. It's the biggest duel map and the bots get totally lost on it. The high level of detail in the map drops FPS significantly, but it makes a nice saber-only FFA or Team FFA map when you get sick of the standard FFA maps. Better bot routing would help alot. Can't wait for the FFA routes. Thanks to all for all the input and support! Tell you what Amidala, we will reroute Duel 6 and include it with the FFA rerouted pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I've already rerouting duel6. It will be in the next release of OJP Basic. If you want it earlier PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted November 29, 2003 Author Share Posted November 29, 2003 Originally posted by razorace I've already rerouting duel6. It will be in the next release of OJP Basic. If you want it earlier PM me. Ack! Sorry Razor, didn't know you were routing that one but T-bone already routed it as well this morning.... I'll pm you asap. *EDIT* Razor please check your PM's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 EMAILED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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