Students for a better America: Gone too far.

[ET Warrior]

Students for a better America is a group of conservatives at my College. (CU Boulder) I hadn't even heard of them until this hit the paper, but now if I see a member of the group I'd like to hit them. This is why. If you don't feel like reading, basically it boils down to, they're mad because 90% of the professors here are registered liberals or democrats and they think that's discrimination and hurting their learning experience.

 

Thoughts, comments, anyone think they're actually justified in their cause?

[SkinWalker]

Never mind that the reason more professors are aligned to the left probably comes from increased critical reasoning ability associated with their educational levels.

 

Educated people often see problems that require change in order to continue with progress. The word "liberal" in defining a political alignment refers to the desire to see "change" occur in government and policy. "Conservatives" generally want to maintain the status quo.

[rccar328]

I agree with their claim, but I don't know how effective their web site would be.

 

I know from personal experience how intimidating it can be to be a conservative in a class with an openly liberal professor. I have two professors right now who make no secret of their political ideaology - the first is a psychology professor who is intellegent enough to realize that political viewpoints don't apply to a child psychology class, but my linguistics professor makes snide remarks about the President as if daring anyone to debate him(political ideaology doesn't have much of anything to do with linguistics) - and there is always the risk that if you do debate a professor it will be reflected in your grade. Not all liberal professors I've had have been this arrogant about their beliefs, but I've found that the few conservative professors on campus generally keep their political views to themselves and teach what the students are paying them to teach.

 

 

Never mind that the reason more professors are aligned to the left probably comes from increased critical reasoning ability associated with their educational levels.

 

Now this is just blatent arrogance. The reason that there are more liberal professors is because liberals decide that they want to "change the world," and instead of going out and doing something useful to make the world a better place, they become professors and lace political indoctrination into their lessons. The same has happened in the news media - journalism students decide that instead of bringing the truth to the people, they're going to go out and change the world...and they end up putting their political views into their 'news' stories, making it politics instead of news.

 

The simple truth is that political ideology has no place in the classroom - conservative or liberal.

[abcd1234]

Originally posted by rccar328

Now this is just blatent arrogance. The reason that there are more liberal professors is because liberals decide that they want to "change the world," and instead of going out and doing something useful to make the world a better place, they become professors and lace political indoctrination into their lessons.

 

The simple truth is that political ideology has no place in the classroom - conservative or liberal.

 

I don't see how you can say that college professor isn't doing something useful as you put it.

 

I also go to CU and I think this is a lot of crap. I don't see how they expect to make a change with all this fussing.

 

ET let us go find them and give them a hard time.

[ET Warrior]

The other reason for such a high number of liberal teachers being that Colorado is a reasonably liberal state, with Boulder being an extremely liberal town, and CU is a very liberal school in a very liberal town.

 

I mean, what exactly is surprising about having a higher percentage of liberal professors?

 

Secondly, not only do I think that "Blacklisting" the liberal professors is childish and showing a total disregard for the professors themselves (Who I strongly doubt the students have ever even had a real conversation with), but I honestly don't see how having a teacher that is openly liberal would affect class.

 

Sure he/she may make some comments during class, but you don't have to care or even try to debate him. His comment will take .5 seconds out of class, just pay attention to what he's teaching.

 

Or if it bothers you that much you could APPROACH said teacher about it. Explain how it makes you uncomfortable during class. MOST professors are where they are because they really want to help students succeed, and if you explain how you don't feel like you're learning anything because you can't stand somebody else to acknowledge the fact that their political views aren't the same as yours they'll probably try to tone it down.

"If we have said something that is offensive, please let us know," said Bintliff. "Talk to us. We don't want to offend or alienate anyone. We are more than willing to learn ourselves, and students often are our best teachers. But please don't deny us the common courtesy of discussing your concerns with us and giving us an opportunity to address them before posting our names on a public list."

 

And finally, I think their ideas of having the hiring process be changed is absolutely ludricrous

"Clearly, there is an imbalance," said Corry. "There are a lot of ways of determining a person's ideologies besides explicitly asking about party affiliation in the job interview. Look at person's past research. What's their view of the U.N.? If they are against the U.N., they are presumably conservative; if asked about environmental laws and they are against Fast Track [a trade procedure], you can probably assume they are a Democrat."

yes, I would love that CU choose the less qualified candidate for the job, just because his views are more conservative. Discrimination anyone?

[Tyrion]

Strangely enough, they're discriminating against the liberal professors, by saying that the professors are discriminating the minority only because they're part of the majority. They have absolutely no evidence otherwise.

 

Again, I'm reminded of all the bull **** stories where a highly qualified caucasian cannot be hired because the company has to higher a minority, who is less qualified, only because they're a minority.

[taoistimmortal]

I think this political bias website is an act of war. Maybe it was in fact born out of serious complaints, but maybe it was spawned by bruised egos on the part of these young republicans. I cant ascertain from the article. Regardless of the reasons behind it's genesis they mean buisness hmm.. pardon the pun.

 

I read an article about a year ago about how a group of young republicans were organizing at Berkley, another extemely liberal school in an extremely liberal town and i was infuriated by what I percieved to be a stubborn pride in "sticking it to those liberals." They seemed to relish playing the devils advocate at a school almost legendarily liberal. Maybe something like this is occuring at CU.

 

As for my opinion I stand so far across the great ideological divide from their veiw points that i can barely distinguish the outline of their forms. I shall always and forever despise this kind of thing. I just dont understand why people would bother to waste their time

[Lathain Valtiel]

I'm more concerned with history professors... Political ideoology tends to slant their thinking and grading apparently. I heard this interesting story about how a "Bush is a War Criminal' essay got an A while a 'Hussein is a War Criminal' essay got an F.

 

Now before you all get riled up, let me point out that history is a matter of analysis. Political agenda tends to cloud historical analysis, and this cannot be denied by.. well, anyone.

 

If you want to be liberal, fine. But i don't want to hear about your views in the class where I pay to learn facts. I don't give a damn about your opinion. Keep politics, liberal or conservative, out of class.

 

..Unless of course it happens to involve politics directly.

 

 

There ARE conservative professors... nd very intelligent ones at that. Skinwalker's statement is off base.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by Lathain Valtiel

I'm more concerned with history professors... Political ideoology tends to slant their thinking and grading apparently. I heard this interesting story about how a "Bush is a War Criminal' essay got an A while a 'Hussein is a War Criminal' essay got an F.

 

If you want to be liberal, fine. But i don't want to hear about your views in the class where I pay to learn facts. I don't give a damn about your opinion. Keep politics, liberal or conservative, out of class.

 

First of all, that's a pretty subjective example, the "Hussein is a war criminal" Essay could've been really crappy and poorly written, while the bush is a war criminal could have been well written. Unless you can provide examples of both essays i'm going to say that at least MOST college professors are where they are because they can be subjective in their grading and analyze if the paper is well written, as opposed to what it is written about.

 

Secondly, yes, you may not care about the professors opinion, but that doesn't mean he/she shouldn't be able to give it. In fact, I really enjoy when a professor is willing to say something other than just lecturing about physics/history/whatever for 50 straight minutes. Small breaks give my brain a chance to rest and think about something new.

[MennoniteHobbit]

Sometimes I don't think that political bias in school on the part of a teacher/professor is bad. I mean, it's the teacher's/professor's opinion, after all. I think that the only time that a professor believing strongly in only one party is bad is when he/she does something academically to a student for not agreeing with him/her.

 

hey ET, since you go there, do YOU sense any discrimination towards conservative students? I highly doubt it.

[abcd1234]

Originally posted by MennoniteHobbit

Sometimes I don't think that political bias in school on the part of a teacher/professor is bad. I mean, it's the teacher's/professor's opinion, after all.

 

I disagree with you here. The teacher is supposed to be giving you an objective education without throwing their beliefs into the mix of things. As a college student, you should be able to form your own political opinions without the professor trying to instill their beliefs upon you.

[rccar328]

I don't see how you can say that college professor isn't doing something useful as you put it.

 

Teaching is useful - nothing is more important than educating people - but when professors taint that with political ideology that has nothing to do with the class, their motives become clear: they are no longer there to educate, but rather to indocrinate, which is not what college is for. The same happens in the news media - instead of joining the news media to educate people on current issues or to inform people of the truth, people with political agendas look at the media as a medium that they can use to change the world, and a biased media results. (I'm not trying to turn this into a media debate - it's the only good parallel I could think of).

 

Strangely enough, they're discriminating against the liberal professors, by saying that the professors are discriminating the minority only because they're part of the majority. They have absolutely no evidence otherwise.

 

This isn't necessarily true. When I pay to take a linguistics class, or a psychology class, or a math class, or a science class, or any other class, I expect to get what I pay for. I'm paying to be educated in that particular subject, not to be preached to about that professor's political ideology.

 

Again, I'm reminded of all the stories where a highly qualified caucasian cannot be hired because the company has to higher a minority, who is less qualified, only because they're a minority.

 

Anyone who believes that some kind of political "affirmative action" should be instituted is taking this way too far. The answer to this problem is not to discriminate against anyone, only to keep the politics of professors out of the classroom.

 

I read an article about a year ago about how a group of young republicans were organizing at Berkley, another extemely liberal school in an extremely liberal town and i was infuriated by what I percieved to be a stubborn pride in "sticking it to those liberals." They seemed to relish playing the devils advocate at a school almost legendarily liberal.

 

I can't speak to these republican's motives, but if they went to Berkley expecting to get an unbiased education, they were deluding themselves. I sympathise with their cause (or maybe I don't - it depends on their motives), but they should have chosen a different school. If they went to Berkley specifically so that they could protest liberalism, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for them.

 

Sometimes I don't think that political bias in school on the part of a teacher/professor is bad. I mean, it's the teacher's/professor's opinion, after all. I think that the only time that a professor believing strongly in only one party is bad is when he/she does something academically to a student for not agreeing with him/her.

 

I don't believe that professors shouldn't have political views - just that they should just be kept out of the classroom. When a professor says something political during class that makes a student uncomfortable, students are often intimidated about approaching that professor out of fear that that professor's bias will affect them academically - by the time you find out, it's too late.

 

Teachers and professors are figures of authority, and what they say greatly affects their students. This is why it is against the law for teachers to share their political or religious affiliation with young students (elementary, middle or high school). In my opinion, the same rules should apply to state-funded colleges - political ideology of any kind simply has no place in the classroom.

 

The teacher is supposed to be giving you an objective education without throwing their beliefs into the mix of things. As a college student, you should be able to form your own political opinions without the professor trying to instill their beliefs upon you.

 

This is exactly what I'm saying - I agree totally.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Nor are the problems of professorial excess absent to day. This year, for example, a criminology class at a Colorado university was given an assignment to write a paper on “Why George Bush Is A War Criminal.” Bad enough. But a student who chose to submit a paper on “Why Saddam Hussein Is A War Criminal” received a failing grade (for political incorrectness). At Augustana University, a Lutheran private college, a student was attacked by his own professor and called a “neo-fascist” in front of his classmates for the sin of inviting a FoxNews Channel host to speak on the campus. At Metro State College in Denver, a student who was a Special Forces instructor and had served his country in Panama, the Gulf War, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq was told by his professor that he was a “racist” and “violent” and that his uniform was an “offense to the class.” At Texas University, students complained about a professors who used their classrooms as political soapboxes, including one journalism professor who instead of teaching journalistic methods lectured on racism, the war in Iraq and ruling class control of the media. I myself attended a class in “Modern Industrial Societies” at Bates College a few years ago, in which the sole text was a 500-page tract put together by the editors of New Left Review with a range of authorities restricted to Marxists. When I asked the professor about the educational appropriateness of so one-sided a text, she replied “They get the other side from the newspapers.”

 

 

 

 

This good enough? I am having trouble finding the essay itself. http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:-cygsJJD3w4J:studentsforacademicfreedom.org/archive/december/HorowitzAAUPResponse120503.htm+%22Hussein+is+a+War+Criminal%22+essay&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

In your case though Et, i can simply issue a bias call... Face it, you're not exactly fond of Bush, and there's not exactly much in the way to labeling Bush a war criminal, while in Saddam's case there's lots of evidence.

[lukeiamyourdad]

If the teachers were conservatives and put their conservative opinions in the classroom, you wouldn't complain would you?

 

 

Anyway, those cases seem to be pretty isolated. It's not encouraged by anyone. The opposite probably happened, a liberal student getting a failing grade because of an innappropriate remark to a conservatist teacher(don't anyone dare say that conservatists are too good they can't do that).

 

You Americans are funny. The teacher's political comments can be easily ignored yet it makes you "uncomfortable".

 

It's actually quite interesting to hear other people's political opinions, even the teacher's. I fail to see how this forces a political opinion upon you.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Actually, I'd still mind. I'm not a religious zealot, i'm more of a person who believes a God exists in some form, just not the Christian one. Nevermind I'm in a pretty good Catholic school...

 

The thing is, you can't exactly make them NOT talk about it, now can you? I agree with rzcar on the basis that if I want to learn politics, I'd go to a political science class. I don't want to learn politics in, say, a psychology class. It's not the place for it, from either side.

 

You show your bias in the second paragraph, so no worthy response is forthcoming to that jibe.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Lathain Valtiel

This good enough? I am having trouble finding the essay itself. http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:-cygsJJD3w4J:studentsforacademicfreedom.org/archive/december/HorowitzAAUPResponse120503.htm+%22Hussein+is+a+War+Criminal%22+essay&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

Ironically, this was written by David Horowitz, who also wrote: "Impeach Bill Clinton for the Right Reasons: Not for Lewinsky, But Rather for the Illegal Bombing of Iraq, Afghanistan and Sudan," published in the Nation, Feb. 22, 1999.

 

From what I've read of Horowitz's work in FrontPage, he appears very supportive of Bush's more aggressive action against Iraq. Rccar is right about media bias... it exists on both sides of the political dichotomy that exists in our nation.

 

Some media outlets obviously favor Republicans (such as FoxNews) and others favor the Democrats (such as NBC). What those of us who don't subscribe to the partisan dichotomy should do is look at both sides and use critical reasoning to determine the best course of action.

 

This applies at school as well. Listen to what the "biased" professors say. Use critical reasoning and evaluate both sides of the issue. If you are utterly convinced that the professor's stance is wrong, you are free to disagree. While it might not be smart to do so during the lecture for several reasons, I've never had professor that appeared to allow bias to enter grading. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I do think it's rare. In fact, I've had several professors encourage opposing thought (not just with politics), but pointed out that it was the methodology and technical nature of papers that was being graded.

 

As a final note, it occurs to me that we have only David Horowitz's word that the cited instances were factual and that the contexts were as presented. I'd be willing to bet that the two contrasted papers (Bush/Hussein) were graded based on method and technical detail rather than ideology... but we'll never know for sure, since Horowitz provides no direct citation.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Lathain Valtiel

There ARE conservative professors... nd very intelligent ones at that. Skinwalker's statement is off base.

 

And you are absolutely right.

 

I was a bit over the top in that remark, but education level certainly affects ideological consistency, whether it be liberal or conservative.

 

I think it's fair to say also that one is more likely find liberal professors in departments like sociology and conservative professors in departments like business and managment.

 

The beauty of attending a University is learning from a variety of sources with a variety of ideologies. I've had friends and teachers as well as bosses and co-workers who had opposing ideologies. That didn't prevent me from learning from them.

 

I would no more agree with a movement to prevent liberal professors from expressing their views than I would conservative ones.

 

But you're right. There are conservative professors. And they do express their views. I saw it happend today in an Archaeology class... and you know what? I still have a great deal of respect for the professor and regardless of his politics. The dude knows his stuff and I don't mind his occasional conservative comments. It won't keep me from learning about the Classical period of Greece.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by rccar328

This isn't necessarily true. When I pay to take a linguistics class, or a psychology class, or a math class, or a science class, or any other class, I expect to get what I pay for. I'm paying to be educated in that particular subject, not to be preached to about that professor's political ideology.

 

And you know what, I'll bet you end up educated in that subject by the end of the semester. If not, you got screwed by an absolutely horrid teacher, and i'm sorry if that happens.

 

But so far after 2 semesters of college I haven't yet found a teacher who has failed to teach what they are supposed to teach, nor have I ever heard a single student complain that their teachers political bias has affected their learning.

 

I think that these Students for a better America just have a few teachers that talk about politics occasionally, and instead of talking to other people about it, they huddle in their meetings plotting the demise of the teachers with their black list of doom.

[El Sitherino]

I just have to say this discrimination act abuse pisses me off. Most americans are starting to get into a thought process of that if they don't get their way, that it's discrimination. Why doesn't anyone ever think that maybe it's just that they suck at the class or whatever their complaint is.

[rccar328]

And you know what, I'll bet you end up educated in that subject by the end of the semester. If not, you got screwed by an absolutely horrid teacher, and i'm sorry if that happens.

 

I'm not saying that politically biased professors are incompetent - only that political bias has no place in the classroom - I've taken classes with extremely competent liberal and conservative professors (of which there are 2 that I know of on campus), and I have taken classes with extremely incompetent liberal professors (I'm not being biased, I just haven't had all that many conservative professors).

 

If the teachers were conservatives and put their conservative opinions in the classroom, you wouldn't complain would you?

 

No, I wouldn't complain - conservative comments wouldn't bother me. What would affect me is if I knew that those comments bothered another student. I have not yet run into a conservative professor who injected his political views into a class (I'm sure they're out there, though), but the fact that it wouldn't bother me doesn't make it right.

 

It's actually quite interesting to hear other people's political opinions, even the teacher's.

 

I agree. I'm not saying that I'm not interested in other people's opinions, just that there is a time and a place for expressing those opinions, and the middle of a linguistics lesson is neither the time nor the place.

 

The liberal professors I have had who have made liberal comments were not truly expressing their opinions, they were only making snide remarks about the President and the war.

 

If professors (liberal or conservative) want to express their political views, they need to find a more appropriate forum to do so.

 

nor have I ever heard a single student complain that their teachers political bias has affected their learning.

 

This isn't about professors not competently teaching their subjects, it's about professors trying to indoctrinate students with their own political views - it's okay in a political debate class (if there is such a thing), but not other classes.

 

If a professor is teaching a non-political class, what other possible motive could they have for injecting political views other than attempting to sway students' opinions? This quite simply has no place in the classroom.

[MennoniteHobbit]

Originally posted by the_raven_03

I disagree with you here. The teacher is supposed to be giving you an objective education without throwing their beliefs into the mix of things. As a college student, you should be able to form your own political opinions without the professor trying to instill their beliefs upon you.

 

Sorry, I meant that it was okay for the teacher to have his/her own opinion in school, without influencing or forcing the student. Otherwise, yes, you are right. The teacher/professor should only inform you about facts.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by rccar328

If a professor is teaching a non-political class, what other possible motive could they have for injecting political views other than attempting to sway students' opinions?

 

Probably for the same reason that students will randomly talk to other students on the bus about the same kinds of things. Most professors would really like to get some sort of raport with the students they are teaching, and acting like a real person and not some stodgy talking fact book is one way of accomplishing it.

 

Such political injections would have two possible effects. Either the kids would just laugh or they would not and class would go on. OR, a kid who agreed might approach the teacher after class to get a more in depth understanding of the teachers views, and so increase the student/teacher relationship.

 

Or a conservative student may approach the teacher and say that they didn't feel it was appropriate and it actually made them uncomfortable, and if the teacher was a crappy person they wouldn't care, but more likely than not, they'd appologize, and end up getting to know THAT student better.

[lukeiamyourdad]

If teachers did not talk about politics in any class, most of us wouldn't have a political opinion whatsoever.

[rccar328]

Probably for the same reason that students will randomly talk to other students on the bus about the same kinds of things. Most professors would really like to get some sort of raport with the students they are teaching, and acting like a real person and not some stodgy talking fact book is one way of accomplishing it.

 

Personally, I respect my professors for their ability to share the knowledge that they are being payed to teach. The student conversation comparison does not hold water: a classroom lecture is not a conversation. In a conversation, two people approach each other as equals to discuss something, while in a lecture, the professor holds power over the students.

 

Such political injections would have two possible effects. Either the kids would just laugh or they would not and class would go on. OR, a kid who agreed might approach the teacher after class to get a more in depth understanding of the teachers views, and so increase the student/teacher relationship.

Or a conservative student may approach the teacher and say that they didn't feel it was appropriate and it actually made them uncomfortable, and if the teacher was a crappy person they wouldn't care, but more likely than not, they'd appologize, and end up getting to know THAT student better.

 

Not necessarily - like I said before, when a professor introduces politics into a classroom lecture, it is often intimidating for students who do not agree - they do not know if it is safe to approach that professor (i.e. the possibility that it could translate into a lower grade), and so must deal with paying large amounts of money to be preached to in classes where political views simply have no place. Professors are authority figures, and as students, it is easy to be intimidated, especially when they are passionate about political views.

 

There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding that I think professors should turn themselves into soulless robots, stand in front of the class, and deliver dry, boring lectures all of the time. They are allowed to have personality. If the only aspect of their personality is their political views, they probably need some serious professional help.

 

It is possible to be a nice person without constantly trying to sway people to your political perspective.

 

If teachers did not talk about politics in any class, most of us wouldn't have a political opinion whatsoever.

 

I know for a fact that this is not true - I developed political opinions in high school. Until I got into college, none of my teachers talked about politics. Like I said earlier, it is against the law (in California, at least) for teachers of primary and secondary grades to talk about politics or religion in class. Kids, teenagers & young adults can form political opinions by learning about issues, and by talking with parents and friends and teachers outside of the classroom.

[MennoniteHobbit]

Originally posted by Tyrion

Again, I'm reminded of all the bull **** stories where a highly qualified caucasian cannot be hired because the company has to higher a minority, who is less qualified, only because they're a minority.

 

Ah.... the topic of affirmative action It's life, *ugh* for now. Michigan supports overactive affirmative action highly.